Shivalry

[Asimov]

How about instead of demanding men be chivalrous to women, why not just encourage courtesy towards all living creatures as individuals, hmmm???

 

[skinner]

lol - when i worked i a factory there was lady in control of stores who was as good as any man at the job. in fact she was in charge!

And I have worked with women and with women bosses, some are great-- some are not. Same with the men.
Like I said, I'm not opposed to women working these jobs. IMO, they make some of the best supervisors, because they tend to relate better to people. (Go ahead and rip that one apart if you want.) I also had one women supervisor that was a tyrant, but once you stood up to her and gained her respect, she would back down.
As far as the physical demanding jobs, we had some petite women tossing around some serious loads, but given the choice, most would opt for the lighter jobs, once they had the senority to choose.
I don't think the differences are just environment. You can see them developing at a very early age. I can give my two year old son dolls and he'll play with them, but it won't be long before he's ripping something apart. His sisters play with trucks, but soon get tired of it and start role playing, acting out the storys they make up, while the boys are off banging, wrestling and "shooting" each other. No one taught them that, it just comes natural

 

[skinner]

How about instead of demanding men be chivalrous to women, why not just encourage courtesy towards all living creatures as individuals, hmmm???

Hey, I've read some of your books, Asimov. But there was a rumor that you were dead...
Well, sure, but my dog doesn't seem to appreciate it as much when I open the door for her..

 

[Nymphalidae]

Anyone who's marriaged to a member of the opposite sex can tell you that the differences are obvious.

You didn't answer my question.

 

[Nymphalidae]

As far as psychological differences, look at how men and women parent. There are good and bad parents in both sexes, and this is not what I am talking about. I am talking about natural parenting techniques. The approach to parenting, and the approach to the child.

For more psychological evidence of our differences, look at the simplest things, like movies. The entire film industry is geared toward sexes. There are movies that are specifically made for teenage girls. There are movies that are specifically made for adolescent males and there are movies geared toward capturing the "dating" ages, between 16-26. These are the films that earn the most money. They're also the ones with the most violence, the most sex (aside from actual pornography), and the most money put into them. Males in that age bracket are the ones spending most of the money on movies, and though the female also enjoys them, if she were going alone with girlfriends, she'd likely pick another film. Psychological differences between men and women are no secret. All one need do is watch the commercials on tv during the day 9am-3pm. They're geared toward women. From 3pm-5pm they are geared toward children. From 5pm-9pm they are geared toward families with a stronger emphasis on the female. From 9pm-midnight they are geared toward couples with a stronger emphasis on males, and young males. From midnight to 4am, is when you find that the majority of infomercials are geared toward the dating age male audiences again, and all of the regular commercials are as well, so is the tv programming.

Please show how these differences can only be explained through biology.

 

[glo]

And I have worked with women and with women bosses, some are great-- some are not. Same with the men.
Like I said, I'm not opposed to women working these jobs.

[...]

As far as the physical demanding jobs, we had some petite women tossing around some serious loads, but given the choice, most would opt for the lighter jobs, once they had the senority to choose.

Please read previous posts. 'Cause no one said that women and men have the same physical anatomy. We are obviously different physically- though there are women who can be stronger than some men too.

IMO, they make some of the best supervisors, because they tend to relate better to people. (Go ahead and rip that one apart if you want.) I also had one women supervisor that was a tyrant, but once you stood up to her and gained her respect, she would back down.

So you're saying that when a woman expresses a desire to do a job typically assigned to a man, that they're confused and conflicted?
Like, it's perfectly natural for a man to want to be a soldier, but for a woman to want to be a soldier? "Boy, she's got some issues to resolve!"
Men or women can back down from "tyrannical" behaviour. I don't see why you brought up your supervisor, as you're only looking at one possibility of why she backed down, and are ignoring the other facts. You talk as if you mean to say that women must have low-selfesteem and hate the world in order to take on "masculine" jobs, and once they've reformed their psyche, women will want to go home and raise children like they ought.

I don't think the differences are just environment. You can see them developing at a very early age. I can give my two year old son dolls and he'll play with them, but it won't be long before he's ripping something apart. His sisters play with trucks, but soon get tired of it and start role playing, acting out the storys they make up, while the boys are off banging, wrestling and "shooting" each other. No one taught them that, it just comes natural

I guess Marie Curie, female race car drivers, and female mechanics, must all have been stricken with some mental illness at birth in order for them to like these stereotypically male occupational areas.
The way you act with your children, the way you talk to them and the messages they intake through TV and books, all contributes to the overall behaviour of the child.
Do you tell your son, "Johnny, you have to wear this tux to look handsome and lovely at the party?" It's what little Janie hears all the time going to school. Girls are conditioned to be obsessed w/their looks. Mommy wears make-up, mommy spends forever on Janie's hair, mommy gives Janie pink and Johnny black and navy.
After a certain age, who gets told, "You can't cry now that you're older." Is it Janie? No, Janie can cry all the way into adulthood till her death. But Johnny stops crying when he hits 6 because he was told not to anymore.
And who plays the "Barbie Enchanted Forest Princess" on all the TV commercials? It's the little girl smiling pretty in her shining dress.
Who's the hero? The prince. Who needs saving? The beautiful princess.

And so also little boys and girls, because of how they're raised, believe stereotypical roles to be natural.
My mother babysits this 5 year old kid. I ask him if his mom and dad reads to him. He replies, "My mom reads to me." I ask him about his dad. He laughs, "Boys don't read!"
And another 5 year old boy my mom babysits: I ask him, "Can girls play firetruck too?" He replies, "No, girls don't play firetruck!"
Another 7 year old my mom babysits: He opposes to teaching this 4 year old girl basketball. "Girls don't play basketball!" he says indignantly.
You know I highly doubt these ideas were instilled at birth.
You don't have to stand with a rod and ferule, rapping on the blackboard, for you to teach things to children. It's all around us.

 

[glo]

What? This has nothing to do with racism. I think the idea of equality between the sexes is silly.

[..]

What this has to do with aprartheid is beyond me.

I was using apartheid as an example of a situation concerning racism that is very similar to the situation we're discussing in sexism. "Silly."

Women want to be beautiful. Men want to be strong. I realize these are cliches, but still are generally true. And one is not better than the other, just very different.

Do you think this is natural? Women desire over beauty because God made it that way? Men want to be strong because God made it that way?

Sigh. It is our duty! And it's her duty to respect us for trying. And to rescue us from our own doubts. It's my duty to tell her she looks good and it's her duty to tell me I'm doing a good job on the plumbing and carpenty (even tho' I know she's lying)
That's how a marriage works, by people buiding each other up. I don't know any women who don't truly want a man who would fight for them. And I don't know any men who don't want a women who respects them.

Of course women want a man willing to fight for them. But when you suggest that men wouldn't need a woman fighting for them, and that women NEED that man to protect them, that's where you draw my ire.
You say that women need men to fight for them, but men don't need women to fight because they can do it themselves. Men only need respect, and are doing their job in protecting women.
Essentially, that's saying that women can't fight for themselves and are weak, whilst men just seek appreciation for their efforts.
Basically, women are in the damsel in distress role. And the man is in the Prince Charming role. The damsel is weak, and the Prince wants a kiss for his efforts.
And this is all God-ordained.

Good grief.

Are women more emotional? In general, yeah. Is that a bad thing? Nope, because they need those emotions. Hard, cold women are totally unappealing.
It may make them efficent but it won't make them happy.

Women aren't predetermined to be more emotional. Trust me.
What is correct is that women AND men need emotions, not just women.
And stereotypical women need to TONE DOWN on the emotions whilst the men have to start being a little more sensitive.
The next thing you're going to say is that women shouldn't vote because they vote with their hearts and not with their brains.

Are men physically stronger? In general, yeah.

No one's disagreeing.

Sorry, but overly emotional men are a little irritating. And I happen to thing women don't care too much for them. Just my observations.

Observations on society. And society was internalised with gender role ideas at young ages, that's why they think it's normal for girls to be crybabies and men to want to "conquer" women. That's what you see in society.
Observations from society aren't going to work in the area of logical thinking this time, because society isn't perfectly logical.

 

[skinner]

You didn't answer my question.

and the answer is.....Yes

 

[Nymphalidae]

and the answer is.....Yes

It isn't so obvious to others who have posted on this thread. Are we simply stupid?

 

[Asimov]

Hey, I've read some of your books, Asimov. But there was a rumor that you were dead...

I am immortal.

Well, sure, but my dog doesn't seem to appreciate it as much when I open the door for her..

Well, if being chivalrous is only meant to get something out of it, then I can see why dudes would want to be that way towards women...especially hot ones.

 

[skinner]

.

So you're saying that when a woman expresses a desire to do a job typically assigned to a man, that they're confused and conflicted?

No, I'm saying nothing of the sort.

Like, it's perfectly natural for a man to want to be a soldier, but for a woman to want to be a soldier? "Boy, she's got some issues to resolve!"

Where are you getting this stuff? Not from my posts, that's for sure.

Men or women can back down from "tyrannical" behaviour. I don't see why you brought up your supervisor, as you're only looking at one possibility of why she backed down, and are ignoring the other facts. You talk as if you mean to say that women must have low-selfesteem and hate the world in order to take on "masculine" jobs, and once they've reformed their psyche, women will want to go home and raise children like they ought. !"

I brought up my supervisor, because she was the EXCEPTION. Almost all the other women I've worked with or under were better at relating to people and easier to work with then the men. Do you really read my posts? Because you're sure reading a lot into them that isn't there.

This particular supervisor is what I would refer to as one of those women who had denyed her natural tendancys and made herself cold and hard for the sake of promotion. Good grief, is that a healthy thing for anyone to do?

You talk as if you mean to say that women must have low-selfesteem and hate the world in order to take on "masculine" jobs, and once they've reformed their psyche, women will want to go home and raise children like they ought.
!"

Uh, no, actually I said that I had no problem with women doing men's jobs. I made a general observation that when possible they had the sense to take jobs that would not cause them physical harm in the long run. I'm not sure why you think that I think all women belong at home. I'll say it again-I preferred it when my assembly line was mostly women, because they let me do my job and be group leader instead of asking every ten minutes if we were making rate.

I guess Marie Curie, female race car drivers, and female mechanics, must all have been stricken with some mental illness at birth in order for them to like these stereotypically male occupational areas.

If you say so. I'd just say they were women that were good at what they do, but hey, I'm not a women, so how would I know?

The way you act with your children, the way you talk to them and the messages they intake through TV and books, all contributes to the overall behaviour of the child.

Do you have children? Perhaps you could explain to me why the boy-two years old, mind you, prefers to read about David and Goliath and skip the more mundane Bible storys. I don't do TV, BTW.
Yeah, some of it is enviromental, but not when it starts before they can walk.

Do you tell your son, "Johnny, you have to wear this tux to look handsome and lovely at the party?" It's what little Janie hears all the time going to school. Girls are conditioned to be obsessed w/their looks. Mommy wears make-up, mommy spends forever on Janie's hair, mommy gives Janie pink and Johnny black and navy.

Mommy doens't wear make-up, except on rare occasions. Mommy does not spend forever on her hair, and is not obsessed with her looks-- or "Janies" hair. Johnney wears purple, blue or whatever I happen to pull from the garage sale special clothes pile.
They are different by nature.

After a certain age, who gets told, "You can't cry now that you're older." Is it Janie? No, Janie can cry all the way into adulthood till her death. But Johnny stops crying when he hits 6 because he was told not to anymore.

Both of them get told to stop crying--if they are crying for no good reason. Eithor get comforted if they are crying in true pain or distress. Why would I ever tell my son not to cry if he is is pain? Regardless of age.

And who plays the "Barbie Enchanted Forest Princess" on all the TV commercials? It's the little girl smiling pretty in her shining dress.
Who's the hero? The prince. Who needs saving? The beautiful princess..

Don't know, don't do TV. What's wrong with princes and princess'? My girls go fishing, hunting, ride bikes, play in the dirt, etc. But they still gravitate towards the stereotypical roles when play-acting. Go figure.

And so also little boys and girls, because of how they're raised, believe stereotypical roles to be natural.
My mother babysits this 5 year old kid. I ask him if his mom and dad reads to him. He replies, "My mom reads to me." I ask him about his dad. He laughs, "Boys don't read!"..

All my kids love to read and dad reads to them as much or more than mom.

And another 5 year old boy my mom babysits: I ask him, "Can girls play firetruck too?" He replies, "No, girls don't play firetruck!"
Another 7 year old my mom babysits: He opposes to teaching this 4 year old girl basketball. "Girls don't play basketball!" he says indignantly.
You know I highly doubt these ideas were instilled at birth.
You don't have to stand with a rod and ferule, rapping on the blackboard, for you to teach things to children. It's all around us.

Maybe not. But we're about as far out as mainstream culture as we can get. BTW, my oldest girl was playing basketball with dad yesterday, guess I'm not too good at this stereotyping thing.

 

[meebs]

And I have worked with women and with women bosses, some are great-- some are not. Same with the men.
Like I said, I'm not opposed to women working these jobs. IMO, they make some of the best supervisors, because they tend to relate better to people. (Go ahead and rip that one apart if you want.) I also had one women supervisor that was a tyrant, but once you stood up to her and gained her respect, she would back down.
As far as the physical demanding jobs, we had some petite women tossing around some serious loads, but given the choice, most would opt for the lighter jobs, once they had the senority to choose.
I don't think the differences are just environment. You can see them developing at a very early age. I can give my two year old son dolls and he'll play with them, but it won't be long before he's ripping something apart. His sisters play with trucks, but soon get tired of it and start role playing, acting out the storys they make up, while the boys are off banging, wrestling and "shooting" each other. No one taught them that, it just comes natural

Came natural to me too. Played with cars, played rough games involving punching and kicking, climbed everywhere...Also played with dolls, teddys and girls games at the same time. Was obsessed with computer games at some point onwards (never stopped). I never got bored with cars persoannly.

Does this not make me a proper girl? Ive grown up fine. Though other girls think im unusual for wanting to have fun other ways. Im not the only one.

Some boys like to play tea parties, play with barbies etc and rough house in other games. - comes natural to them too. Except maybe if there father is closed minded he tells them to stop.

I see no problem. Its society that established these gender rules. There are physical differences, i admit. And i like others look at the abilities of the individual not the gender.

 

[skinner]

The next thing you're going to say is that women shouldn't vote because they vote with their hearts and not with their brains.

I find it a bit ironic that while accusing me of stereotyping you are stereotyping me.

If you're going to put words in my mouth, perhaps they could actually have some relation to my posts?

 

[fanatiquefou]

Glo, come on, you're reading WAY too much into Skinner's posts. It seems like you've already decided for him what his opinions are and are now finding evidence of these opinions where there isn't any! I disagreed with Skinner earlier in this thread on the role of chivalry in today's society, but I don't think anyone can argue that there ARE differences between men and women, and not just physical. Sure, a lot of those differences are culturally based, and I would probably disagree somewhat with Skinner about the degree to which we're culturally influenced to act 'male' or 'female.' But you still can't get around the fact that in certain ways, our brains are just built differently. To Skinner's credit, I don't at all think that he's trying to say that these differences are somehow limiting to women, or that they make men superior. He's just stating the obvious - hey, men and women are fundamentally different! They're only small differences, and of course there are huge variances within genders so you can never say that ALL women or ALL men act a certain way, but the differences are still there, and can't be ignored.

 

[Shreck]

Loving it, Glo and skinner, keep it up. Glo... Bite back please this is fun.

I find it a bit ironic that while accusing me of stereotyping you are stereotyping me.

If you're going to put words in my mouth, perhaps they could actually have some relation to my posts?

 

[glo]

Do you really read my posts? Because you're sure reading a lot into them that isn't there.

Glo, come on, you're reading WAY too much into Skinner's posts.

I guess I am reading too much of Skinner's posts and the content of the "too much" is a bit offensive as Skinner claims it's not true. Well then, if it's not, I apologise for reading your posts like I'm analysing classic English literature.

 

[glo]

Mommy doens't wear make-up, except on rare occasions. Mommy does not spend forever on her hair, and is not obsessed with her looks-- or "Janies" hair. Johnney wears purple, blue or whatever I happen to pull from the garage sale special clothes pile.
They are different by nature.



Both of them get told to stop crying--if they are crying for no good reason. Eithor get comforted if they are crying in true pain or distress. Why would I ever tell my son not to cry if he is is pain? Regardless of age.



Don't know, don't do TV. What's wrong with princes and princess'? My girls go fishing, hunting, ride bikes, play in the dirt, etc. But they still gravitate towards the stereotypical roles when play-acting. Go figure.


All my kids love to read and dad reads to them as much or more than mom.




Maybe not. But we're about as far out as mainstream culture as we can get. BTW, my oldest girl was playing basketball with dad yesterday, guess I'm not too good at this stereotyping thing.

I'm not talking about your family in particular. I'm talking about how it comes that stereotypical behaviour and thoughts are internalised in most environments. Not everything I mentioned has to apply to you and your children.
And besides, there are other things parents and the outside world teaches to your children, even though it might not be intentional.
I find you ignorant to the labels of "sissy," "wuss," and "pansy." These are all labels you'll find stuck on the foreheads of boys who cry and who want their mother as much as girls.
"Boys Don't Cry." It's even the title of a movie starring Hilary Swank eh?
And what's wrong with princesses and princes? Well for one, princesses are lazy and suck taxes off the poor taxpayers for her fancy dresses- that's one . And second, the main concept of fairy tales is for the lady to be saved and the man to do the saving. I've hardly ever seen it the other way around.

Where are you getting this stuff? Not from my posts, that's for sure.

[...]
This particular supervisor is what I would refer to as one of those women who had denyed her natural tendancys and made herself cold and hard for the sake of promotion. Good grief, is that a healthy thing for anyone to do?

Why I said what I said was because you brought up your female supervisor and then proceeded to critique her for being icy, and then ended with her miraculous reformation. The latter parts I found and derived what I derived from them. If you wanted me to see only that you believe that women really can be in leadership roles, you could have just spoke out that your supervisor was a woman. But adding on the extra fat that you didn't attempt to convey as superficial superfluity, I assumed you were using the fact she was conflicted to support a common belief that women are confused when they become tough and emotionless.
So of course it's not a healthy thing to freeze yourself to the outside world, I agree. But because of the extra lines you added, I interpreted your entire shpeel on the supervisor as a point I needed to address harshly.

If you say so. I'd just say they were women that were good at what they do, but hey, I'm not a women, so how would I know?

I meant that since you said that women were naturally preferential of emotional/dolly things, women like Marie Curie and female racecar drivers would then by extension have some sort of problem with them.
...Do you read my posts or is my writing style so bad that you can't understand what I'm saying?


And I apologise. I'm too much of a critic when I read maybe.

 

[skinner]

And what's wrong with princesses and princes? Well for one, princesses are lazy and suck taxes off the poor taxpayers for her fancy dresses- that's one . And second, the main concept of fairy tales is for the lady to be saved and the man to do the saving. I've hardly ever seen it the other way around..

Of course, fairy tales are romantisized and somewhat unrealistic. This would be a good time to mention that the romance novel market is fueled by women. And what are romance novels but modern fairy tales? So, while you may not like the stereotypes, there are obviously lots of women who are attracted to them. I'd say the main concept of fairy tales is the battle between good and evil, but then, I'm a man, so I see things differently
I like movies and stories with strong heroines, myself. Can't stand the ones who just stand there and scream.
Women can be strong and still be feminine.

Why I said what I said was because you brought up your female supervisor and then proceeded to critique her for being icy, and then ended with her miraculous reformation. The latter parts I found and derived what I derived from them. If you wanted me to see only that you believe that women really can be in leadership roles, you could have just spoke out that your supervisor was a woman. But adding on the extra fat that you didn't attempt to convey as superficial superfluity, I assumed you were using the fact she was conflicted to support a common belief that women are confused when they become tough and emotionless.
So of course it's not a healthy thing to freeze yourself to the outside world, I agree. But because of the extra lines you added, I interpreted your entire shpeel on the supervisor as a point I needed to address harshly..

Well, I can see how you could have miss-interpreted what I was saying about my supervisor. Factory jobs are generally so boring that one has a lot of time to observe the human dramas going on. Perhaps I should have clarified what I think about women and men who can't handle a bit of power. Seems the women become controlling and the men become arrogant. (disclaimer: this is only in reference to certain people. Many women (and men) handle it just fine)

I meant that since you said that women were naturally preferential of emotional/dolly things, women like Marie Curie and female racecar drivers would then by extension have some sort of problem with them. .

Well, actually I said the women gravitated to the "lighter" jobs, meaning not the ones that required constant heavy lifting. Of course, there were exceptions. I've worked jobs where we commonly spun around 500 pound barrels, and it takes a fairly hefty women to do that all day.
I was also being sarcastic there about the race car drivers and such--yes I understood what you meant.

...Do you read my posts or is my writing style so bad that you can't understand what I'm saying?

And I apologise. I'm too much of a critic when I read maybe.

Nah, shucks, ma'am your writing style is just fine and I apologize for my sarcasm.

 

[Arkanin]

I don't think there's anything "wrong" with skinner's observations. They're legitimate, but they're mostly a matter of socialization and not biology, if you ask me.

An important part of being honest is acknowledging that there are some differences between genders. There is an amount of truth to biological stereotypes. Generally speaking, women (from an evolutionary perspective) tend to want certain kinds of men and men certain kinds of women. During certain times of the month, women do have more chemicals in their body than other men or women and that can influence mood. Strength-wise, the top 7% of women are statistically as strong as the bottom 7% of men. Women have a more advanced corpus callosum, which means that the connection between the two hemispheres of their brain is more pronounced. This results in generally better capacity to understand others' emotions and multitask. Women also tend to have more body fat and fewer pain-related nerve endings. Women also generate less testosterone than men, which generally means women will tend to have less sex drive and be less aggressive.

Women are cultured by society to be highly affeminate. The end result is many women who accept conventional female roles and many men who accept conventional male roles.


I'm not saying all this to classify women in general as they are people and defy classification, but to point out that we should acknowledge that there are biological differences that do individuate the genders beyond anatomy. It would not be politically correct to overlook these; it would be ignorant. All that said, it's utterly critically important that we look at people as individuals and not groups. There are often things we can say about most women or men at a certain age in a certain place, but that's not fair to the men or women that doesn't apply to.

 

[meebs]

During certain times of the month, women do have more chemicals in their body than other men or women and that can influence mood.

a smart woman will know not to use this as an excuse