She who sits as queen, not widow, never mourns

[HisdaughterJen]

don't forget the viking (norse) settlements in Canada

Yes, and there were American Indians as well. But the point was that this part of the world (North America) was not yet populated (by Europeans) so as to fulfill the description of Mystery Babylon. No nation or tribe in North America was responsible for killing the saints of Jesus. No nation or tribe in North America was very rich and ruled over other nations. Mystery Babylon as described in Rev 17/18 is pretty specific both in open and inferred points of description.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Ragan Ewing’s Master’s Thesis on this subject done at Dallas Theological Seminary in 2002.

bible.org: Chapter 1: Introduction



For the typical Christian, Paul made it clear where doctrinal authority is found:

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

If ever there were a place where the bible should have been named as the highest or final authority for the average saint to prevail against "winds of doctrine", it is in the above passage.

What about right here?
1Cr 4:6"Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. "

Or here?
Act 17:11"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. "

 

[Thekla]

Yes, and there were American Indians as well. But the point was that this part of the world (North America) was not yet populated (by Europeans) so as to fulfill the description of Mystery Babylon. No nation or tribe in North America was responsible for killing the saints of Jesus. No nation or tribe in North America was very rich and ruled over other nations. Mystery Babylon as described in Rev 17/18 is pretty specific both in open and inferred points of description.

but God knew of the Americas, as well as the past and future; the words John uses are familiar to him, but may be applied to that for which he has no terminology.

What do you think this passage refers to ?

Oh, and to follow is an (incomplete) list of cities built on 7 hills ..


List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills:

• Amman, Jordan
• Asunción, Paraguay
• Edinburgh, Scotland
• Jerusalem, Israel [1]
• Kampala, Uganda
• Lisbon, Portugal
• Moscow, Russia
• Nevada City, United States
• Prague, Czech Republic, said to be built on seven or nine hills: Hradčany, Vítkov, (Opy&#353, Větrov, Skalka, (Emauzy), Vyšehrad, Karlov and Petřín
• Sheffield, England
• Rome, Italy
• Worcester, MA United States
• Saint-Etienne, France

EDIT: this list is not complete

 

[Floatingaxe]

Rev 18:7Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself. In her heart she boasts, 'I sit as queen; I am not a widow, and I will never mourn.'

This is describing Mystery Babylon whom God despises and uses the Beast to destroy her.

It's a kind of riddle. She boasts, so she is proud. She considers herself a queen. Since every queen has a king, who is the King? Obviously, the King is dead but strangely she doesn't consider herself a widow and says she'll never mourn. Why? If she considers herself the all-powerful queen/bride of a RISEN KING (Christ), then she is truly not a widow and will never mourn.

But who on this earth proudly considers herself very powerful but whom God will hate and the Beast will hate as well?

Rev 17:16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled.


Also, she is something that has been around since the time of the apostles and will still be around when the Beast is on the scene because the Beast destroys her.

Rev 17:6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven!
Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!
God has judged her for the way she treated you.’ ”

Rev 18:24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
and of all who have been killed on the earth.”

God's people are mixed up with/in her:
Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

It appears to be a Christian religious organization or maybe apostate Christianity. Any thoughts?

Yes, you've got it right! The woman is religion...all religion, even religion that calls itself Christian. God hates it.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Makes no sense. There have been martyrs of Jesus for 2000 years, the phrasing does not imply that they had to die in the first century. hint: Jesus is alive unto the ages of ages.

The point was that the Bible is not referring to the Jews or Jerusalem as Mystery Babylon in Rev. 17/18 because it referred to saints/prophets who died for Jesus...not saints/prophets of old (before Jesus came). OF course there have been martyrs and saints killed for Jesus for 2000 years...and you're right, they did not have to die in the first century.

Further, if you take your claim as true, then you are admitting that the Church who shall remain nameless was there in the first century, something no true Protestant would claim. (hands over a Scotch )

I don't know for certain that Mystery Babylon is the RCC...it may be bigger than that. The RCC does claim to have started with Peter and does claim to sit as "queen" (bride of Christ the King on earth) even going so far as to claim that her traditions are equivalent to scripture in authority and power. But the RCC denies roots in Rome and the Roman Empire, does it not?

History tells us that the Papacy, however, somehow got mixed up in the Roman Empire because it became the Holy Roman Empire and the Popes exercised authority over the territory of the Roman Empire, controlled land (feudal land owner) and crowned/controlled kings. All of this is mentioned in the scripture about Mystery Babylon.

If the RCC is not or never was a part of the Roman empire/Holy Roman Empire, then I am wrong. (Funny that the RCC and Holy Roman Empire both had popes) If it was, then my theory could be correct.

What else fits? Some have said a monetary system, some have said an invisible, spiritual city in the heavens, some have said it's a nation yet unidentified. If you take a step back and look at it objectively, then it certainly makes you wonder!

 

[HisdaughterJen]

but God knew of the Americas, as well as the past and future; the words John uses are familiar to him, but may be applied to that for which he has no terminology.

What do you think this passage refers to ?

Oh, and to follow is an (incomplete) list of cities built on 7 hills ..


List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills:

• Amman, Jordan
• Asunción, Paraguay
• Edinburgh, Scotland
• Jerusalem, Israel [1]
• Kampala, Uganda
• Lisbon, Portugal
• Moscow, Russia
• Nevada City, United States
• Prague, Czech Republic, said to be built on seven or nine hills: Hradčany, Vítkov, (Opy&#353, Větrov, Skalka, (Emauzy), Vyšehrad, Karlov and Petřín
• Sheffield, England
• Rome, Italy
• Worcester, MA United States
• Saint-Etienne, France

EDIT: this list is not complete

Ok then, compare your list to the scripture passages and ask God to show you which is correct. I'm not basing my guess on this sole descriptor of 'seven hills'. There's a whole lot of other descriptors:

Rev 17:6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.
Rev 17:9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.
Rev 17:15 Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.
Rev 17:16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled.
Rev 17:18
The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”
Rev 18:2 With a mighty voice he shouted:

“Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a home for demons
and a haunt for every evil[fn1] spirit,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
Rev 18:7 Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
‘I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.’

 

[tulc]

Since every queen has a king, who is the King?

uhmmm not every Queen has a King. The Queen of England is a Queen and doesn't have a King, nor is she a widow.
tulc(sorry if anyone else pointed this out)

 

[Thekla]

Ok then, compare your list to the scripture passages and ask God to show you which is correct. I'm not basing my guess on this sole descriptor of 'seven hills'. There's a whole lot of other descriptors:

Rev 17:6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.
Rev 17:9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.
Rev 17:15 Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.
Rev 17:16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled.
Rev 17:18
The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”
Rev 18:2 With a mighty voice he shouted:

“Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a home for demons
and a haunt for every evil[fn1] spirit,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
Rev 18:7 Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
‘I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.’

I'm not certain that the RCC in any period of history can be described as "drunk with the blood of saints".

The point of my listing was -- we should not eliminate possibilities based on incomplete knowledge.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Yes, you've got it right! The woman is religion...all religion, even religion that calls itself Christian. God hates it.

Yes, Christian religion is certainly proud and boastful, considering itself the bride (Queen) of the King of Kings.
In the Bible, God never asked for all of the different denominations...He wants unity among His children.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit–just as you were called to one hope when you were called–
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

The only thing God ever said about religion that I've found in the Bible is this:
Jam 1:27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

He wants our hearts, not our denominational membership card!

 

[Oblio]

"Do not go beyond what is written."

Does not mean what you are interpreting it to mean. For one, it is a figure of speech (I've lent out my source, I'll try to retrieve it an post the reference), for two, that would invalidate all post 1st Corinthian writings, the same problem with using 'all Scripture is profitable ...' verse.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

uhmmm not every Queen has a King. The Queen of England is a Queen and doesn't have a King, nor is she a widow.
tulc(sorry if anyone else pointed this out)

Yes, but I don't believe that it was always that way... and look at the passage of scripture:
Rev 18:7 Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
‘I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.’

This is a riddle!
She is boasting and proud of her position. Why does she call herself a queen? Why does she say that she is not a widow and will never mourn? If the King is alive and sitting right next to her, he'd be in power. But she says she's not a widow and will never mourn...something has happened to the king. Obviously he's dead but she says she's not a widow and will never mourn. Seeing as how this is written in the BIBLE, we can make a few assumptions here...namely that Jesus is the King of Kings, Jesus died and rose again, there is a bride of Christ on the earth right now (not this woman who considers herself a queen, though). A bride of the King of Kings is not a widow and will never mourn because Jesus is alive! This "thing" considers herself "in charge" as queen.

It's actually a very cool riddle, in my opinion...

 

[Thekla]

Ok then, compare your list to the scripture passages and ask God to show you which is correct. I'm not basing my guess on this sole descriptor of 'seven hills'. There's a whole lot of other descriptors:

Rev 17:6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.
Rev 17:9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.
Rev 17:15 Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.
Rev 17:16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled.
Rev 17:18
The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”
Rev 18:2 With a mighty voice he shouted:

“Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a home for demons
and a haunt for every evil[fn1] spirit,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
Rev 18:7 Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
‘I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.’

this interpretation also fails to consider Nero an other anti-christian rulers, communism etc., and several recent campaigns that treated Christians as enemy combatants (ex., in 20th c. Central America, owning a Bible was grounds for questioning, torture and even execution).

 

[Floatingaxe]

uhmmm not every Queen has a King. The Queen of England is a Queen and doesn't have a King, nor is she a widow.
tulc(sorry if anyone else pointed this out)

It's not the Church of Jesus Christ, the King of kings, for it is the apostate church and the sum of all world religions led by the prince of this world, Satan.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I'm not certain that the RCC in any period of history can be described as "drunk with the blood of saints".

The point of my listing was -- we should not eliminate possibilities based on incomplete knowledge.

I agree...we should keep seeking the truth.

If Mystery Babylon is the RCC, then the drunk with the blood of the saints part would go back to Rome/Roman Empire and then Holy Roman Empire (Crusades/Inquisitions).

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Does not mean what you are interpreting it to mean. For one, it is a figure of speech (I've lent out my source, I'll try to retrieve it an post the reference), for two, that would invalidate all post 1st Corinthian writings, the same problem with using 'all Scripture is profitable ...' verse.

Well, the Bereans were honored for doing so:
Act 17:11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

this interpretation also fails to consider Nero an other anti-christian rulers, communism etc.,

Ok, but does communism and Nero fulfill all of the descriptors that God gave us?

and several recent campaigns that treated Christians as enemy combatants (ex., in 20th c. Central America, owning a Bible was grounds for questioning, torture and even execution).

Yes, Christians are persecuted. Do these instances fulfull all of the descriptors? Was 20th Century Central America or Communism around when John was given this Revelation and still around when the Beast comes to rule?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

It's not the Church of Jesus Christ, the King of kings, for it is the apostate church and the sum of all world religions led by the prince of this world, Satan.

Yes, obviously not the true church because God uses the beast to destroy Mystery Babylon.

 

[tulc]

Yes, but I don't believe that it was always that way...

Nope, but nothing else is as it was either.
tulc(just a thought)

 

[LJSGM]

could have a double meaning, God gives double meanings sometimes in my opinion. First the literal/carnal, then the spiritual. Just subscribing anyways.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Nope, but nothing else is as it was either.
tulc(just a thought)

WHat do you mean? Are you agreeing or disagreeing?