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She who sits as queen, not widow, never mourns

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by HisdaughterJen, Jun 29, 2007.

  1. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

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    Rev 18:7Give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself. In her heart she boasts, 'I sit as queen; I am not a widow, and I will never mourn.'

    This is describing Mystery Babylon whom God despises and uses the Beast to destroy her.

    It's a kind of riddle. She boasts, so she is proud. She considers herself a queen. Since every queen has a king, who is the King? Obviously, the King is dead but strangely she doesn't consider herself a widow and says she'll never mourn. Why? If she considers herself the all-powerful queen/bride of a RISEN KING (Christ), then she is truly not a widow and will never mourn.

    But who on this earth proudly considers herself very powerful but whom God will hate and the Beast will hate as well?

    Rev 17:16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
    Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled.


    Also, she is something that has been around since the time of the apostles and will still be around when the Beast is on the scene because the Beast destroys her.

    Rev 17:6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
    Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven!
    Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!
    God has judged her for the way she treated you.’ ”

    Rev 18:24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
    and of all who have been killed on the earth.”

    God's people are mixed up with/in her:
    Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

    “Come out of her, my people,
    so that you will not share in her sins,
    so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

    It appears to be a Christian religious organization or maybe apostate Christianity. Any thoughts?
     
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  2. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Yep, that is a pretty big hint I think. :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
  3. leothelioness

    leothelioness Well-Known Member

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    I also believe it is referring to some religious organisation. Possibly something that is passing itself off as Christian.
     
  4. thereselittleflower

    thereselittleflower Well-Known Member

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    :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

    Jerusalem doesn't try to pass herseslf off as "christian", so the "christian" angle can't be correct. ;)


    .
     
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  5. justaGUYnamedROB

    justaGUYnamedROB If anything could ever be this good again...

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    I'll take a stab at it: Jews or Judaism.


    They boast about being the "queen" because they are God's (the King) chosen people. They don't mourn or consider themselves a widow because they don't believe that the Messiah has come yet, so in their minds, they're not missing anything.

    Satan hates all of mankind, but I think he especially hates the Jews for the simple fact that they're "God's chosen." Jews own and control about 1/3 of the world's wealth which probably explains the "give the beast their power to rule" phrase.

    God's not too thrilled with them for the simple fact that they rejected the blood of Jesus. Nice catch-22.

    Weren't 11 of the 12 apostles killed by Jews?
     
  6. holo

    holo former Christian

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    Ooooh, hmmm, I wonder what you could possibly mean... Well, it must be a church, but I guess we'll just have to guess wildly which one you might be referring to...
     
  7. leothelioness

    leothelioness Well-Known Member

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    I find it funny how you are always trying to argue with me. ^_^ Why do you dislike me so?

    At any rate, if you read the passage carefully you will know that it is not referring to Jerusalem. If you believe it is, could you please show me which pasages indicate that it is talking about Jerusalem.
     
  8. leothelioness

    leothelioness Well-Known Member

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    There's only one hole in your argument. If you go on to read what the beast and the ten horns represent it is clearly not talking about satan.
     
  9. tadoflamb

    tadoflamb no identificado

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    Hello LOL,:wave:

    Could you please be more specific? What religious organization do you believe it could be referring to?

    Thanks. :)

    Tad
     
  10. Trento

    Trento Senior Veteran

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    bible.org: Chapter 4: The Evidence For Jerusalem As The Harlot


    One of the simplest, yet strongest clues that Jerusalem is to be understood as the harlot of Babylon is that John seems to give the answer away directly to the observant reader in a couple of key places in Revelation. At the end of chapter 17, the interpreting angel tells John the identity of the adulterous woman explicitly: “The woman whom you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth” (hJ gunh h}n eide" e[stin hJ povli" hJ megavlh hJ e[cousa basileivan ejpi tw'n basilevwn th'" gh'"). This phrase “the great city” seems to be set forth with the assumption that the reader knows what city that would be, and the phrase is tossed around several more times in this passage.Moreover, the phrase appears to be used quite exclusively in the book of Revelation. Outside of this passage, in which it occurs many times, all of which clearly refer to Babylon, the phrase only appears twice in the rest of this twenty-two-chapter book. The first, and most important occurrence of the designation “the great city” is in 11:8, which reads, “And [the two witnesses’] bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified” (to ptw'ma aujtw'n ejpi th'" plateiva" th'" povlew" th'" megavlh" h{ti" kalei'tai pneumatikw'" Sovdoma kai Ai[gupto" o{pou kai oJ kuvrio" aujtw'n ejstaurwvqh). This verse is extremely significant. In it, we have two major pieces of information relevant to our study.
    First, it is all but indisputable that “the great city” as identified here is Jerusalem, “where also their Lord was crucified.” This alone sets a powerful precedent for the term before we come to chapters 17 and 18. This term is not used carelessly for many cities in the book, but rather only twice without explicit reference to Babylon. It is hard to imagine this reference not ringing in the ears of the original audience when they would arrive at 17:18. It would easily be the most natural step, if a somewhat shocking one.
    Secondly, the writer also sets a precedent for using metaphorical names for Jerusalem, specifically names of Israel’s ancient enemies. This tells us two things: we should not be surprised if he does it again, and Jerusalem is being painted in a very negative light in Revelation.
    A similar occurrence of the phrase “the great city” is found in 16:19, where again we have a vital clue to the identity of the harlot who appears later. The verse reads, “And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell” (kai ejgevneto hJ povli" hJ megavlh eij" triva mevrh kai aiJ povlei" tw'n ejqnw'n e[pesan). The key point to be made here is that “the great city” is apparently contrasted with “the cities of the nations.” It could be that the great city is merely one of the cities of the nations, but it seems more likely that the two are to be distinguished; we are not told that the other cities of the nations fell, just that the cities of the nations fell, as distinct from the great city. As Ford comments, “The juxtaposition of this phrase with the ‘cities of the nations’ suggests that it is not a Gentile location, such as Rome.” This also becomes more probable in light of the lexical ambiguity of the Greek. For neutrality’s sake, the translation given above has simply rendered tw'n ejqnw'n “of the nations.” In Greek, of course, the term may be translated either in this manner or more specifically as “of the Gentiles.” The NET Bible notes this as an alternative translation, and if we take this option, the text is even more telling. In this case “the great city” would be juxtaposed against “the cities of the Gentiles.” In light of the last use of “the great city,” in which it was identified as the place “where also their Lord was crucified,” this does not seem unlikely. What makes this especially significant for our present study is that this verse may bridge the gap between 11:8 and 17:18 in that the remaining portion of 16:19 fills out the image of this “great city” by identifying it explicitly as Babylon.
    In addition, this interpretation can be further validated by the Old Testament background of the city’s fate in this passage. As several commentators have recognized, the splitting of the city into three parts seems to echo Ezek 5:1–5 in which God has the prophet divide his hair into three parts as a depiction of coming judgment upon a city, specifically, the desolation of Jerusalem, which will occur in thirds. Taking together the precedent of Rev 11:8, the contrast with the cities of the nations/Gentiles, and the background of Ezek 5, we have very compelling reasons to think 16:9, like 11:8, may be referring to Jerusalem as “the great city.” Not only that, “the great city” is here also clearly connected to the name “Babylon.” Again, these are the only two references to “the great city” in the book before we get to chapter 17. There is no other “great city” to be found in the Apocalypse, no other precedent to follow. If Jerusalem is not the harlot, it is worth asking at this point why John, who uses the phrase “the great city” so colorfully in chapters 17 and 18 has been so uncareful as to let it slip at two other places in the book, both of which would likely lead one to see Jerusalem as God’s enemy, if not Babylon itself.
    One other similar phenomenon occurs in chapter 14, in which “the winepress was trodden outside the city” (ejpathvqh hJ lhno" e[xwqen th'" povlew" [14:20]). Almost all interpreters identify this city as Jerusalem (due to the grapes/vine imagery that is so commonly associated with Israel in the Old Testament), yet the only “city” mentioned thus far in the chapter is “Babylon the great” (Babulwn hJ megavlh) in verse 8. The identification seems to be taken for granted. If this is the case, then all three passages in the book that anticipate the revealing of “the great city” in chapters 17 and 18 can be said to be evocative of, if not indicative of Jerusalem, and this necessarily sets a powerfully consistent motif in the mind of the reader by the time these later chapters are encountered
     
  11. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Remember the story of Ahab and Jezebel?
    Wonder why the dogs left the skull, hands and feet :confused:

    2 king 9:30 Now, when Jehu entered Jezreel and, Jezebel, heard of it, she set her eyes in stibium, and ornamented her head, and looked forth through the lattice. 31 So, when, Jehu, had entered in at the gate, she said, Was it peace, when Zimri slew his lord?
    35 So they went to bury her,--but found not of her--save the skull/01538 gulgoleth, and the feet, and the palms of the hands. 36 Then came they back, and told him, and he said--The word of Yahweh, it is, which he spake by the hand of his servant, Elijah the Tishbite, saying--In the town-land of Jezreel, shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel! 37 So shall the carcass of Jezebel become like heaps of dung on the face of the field, in the town-land of Jezreel: So that they cannot say, This, is Jezebel!
     
  12. justaGUYnamedROB

    justaGUYnamedROB If anything could ever be this good again...

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    This is like saying, "George W. Bush has nothing to do with the war in Iraq, because he's not the one over there firing a gun."

    Just because the beast with 10 horns isn't Satan himself, doesn't mean that Satan isn't behind it all.

    Context. ;)
     
  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Hi. Satan simply means Adversary. So we see one Adversary against another Adversary. One of them loses.
    The Devil is an Adversary to the Saints just as the Saints are an Adversary to the Devil :)
     
  14. justaGUYnamedROB

    justaGUYnamedROB If anything could ever be this good again...

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    Right, but the feisty one up above doesn't seem cognizant of the fact that Satan's kingdom can't be divided against itself, and there is no third party involved in the final battle. The individual meanings of the devil's many names is moot.
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Kind of like these guys?
    No wonder the Jewish common people were like little lost sheep.
    :wave:

    Acts 23:8 for Sadducees indeed say there is no rising again, nor messenger, nor spirit, but Pharisees confess both.
     
  16. Fireinfolding

    Fireinfolding ....

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    Mark 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand,but hath an end.

    Its a good thing some things fall and their end. Jesus spake of a house or a city divided against itself falling.

    Peace

    Fireinfolding
     
  17. leothelioness

    leothelioness Well-Known Member

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    Ah, putting words in my mouth I see.

    If you recall, and if indeed you can read, I never said that Satan wasn't behind it all. I said that the beast and the ten horns is not representative of Satan.

    You made it sound as if the beast and the ten horns were Satan himself. They are not.
     
  18. justaGUYnamedROB

    justaGUYnamedROB If anything could ever be this good again...

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    You're welcome. :)
     
  19. leothelioness

    leothelioness Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean by calling me Bullet with Butterfly Wings???

    Was that intended to be an insult?
     
  20. Matthan

    Matthan Veteran

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    Funny, but I do not remember about Jerusalem sitting on "SEVEN MOUNTAINS"? In fact, there is only one major city that sits on "SEVEN MOUNTAINS". Hummmm.....

    People have become very adept at denying the truth of God in favor of their own beliefs. I can only wonder what God will think about that?

    Matthan
     
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