She says In her heart I sit as queen and am no widow

[RandyPNW]

It is good to hear other people's opinions. We become more informed when we do. I know I have changed my mind about some of my own interpretations.

I've changed my views 100s of times and in 100s of ways. The 1st commentary on Revelation I read was in about 1971 by a scholar named Lenski. He described everything in symbolic terms, and everything he said I held onto like gold...until I read the next commentary. But then I was quite young.

When I read Hal Lindsey, I began to hold onto everything he had to say...until I became a convinced Postribulationist. From that time to this I've gone through a long series of changes, which has been helped by my listening even to those from other schools of interpretation. I think what you said was wise--very wise.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

You had me all the way up until this last point. I agree with the late date of John's Revelation.

So if you agree with the late date of John's Revelation, why do you then believe the book of Revelation has already been fulfilled in 70AD?

Revelation 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.
'to take place after this in Greek is meta tauta

Chapters 2 & 3 describe the age of the Church, so now, and then look how chapter 4 starts
Verse 1 'After this I looked' In Greek, this verse starts with meta tauta...so chapter 4 starts with the things that are 'after this' from rev 1:19. So chapter 2 & 3 are the age of the Church, which is from pentecost until the rapture, and then we have chapter 4. From chapter 4 you have the 7 years tribulation, until chapter 20, it also gives you the timeline. That's why the Church is no longer on Earth from chapter 4, because they are in Heaven, attending the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Furthermore, the disaster in the book of revelation are world-wide events, whilst what happened to 70 AD happened only to Jerusalem.

Now, back to Matthew 24. When I look at the text, it just does not fit to all the events that happened in 70 AD.
Matthew 24 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. - what has this to do for the Church? Who was commanded to keep the Sabbath? Israel. This is only for Israel. Some Christians tragically believe Sunday is the new Sabbath. That's completely wrong. Sunday is the first day after Sabbath when our Lord was resurrected. So we see this is only for Israel. There were Christians in Jerusalem in 70 AD. So this event is in the future, when the Church is no longer on Earth. Who is Matthew 24 written for? For the Jews living during the big tribulation.

'21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.'
What happened in 70AD was tragic, but it was not as bad as what happened during the Holocaust. So how can this then apply to 70AD when the holocaust was even a bigger tribulation? It does not. We only see the increase in tribulation, when we know it will get even worse. So clearly Matthew 24 talks about a futuristic event. But we know when the greatest tribulation will be...when archangel Michael throwns down satan from heaven to earth. That's what we read in Daniel 12, because when satan is thrown out of heaven, the tribulation of the Jews will be the biggest that ever was.

22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
This does not apply to 70AD.

23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’
In year 70, who was telling people 'oh look, there is Christ'. This verse relates to the end, because the Lord says that at the end, many will rise in His name a say 'it is me'

24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders
Tell me about great signs and wonders that were performed in 70 AD. I read nothing about any great wonders happening back then. But today, with today's technology, AI, holograms etc. we see where this is heading

But what do we read about the great tribulation? Not only the 2 witnesses (honestly if this happened in 70 AD, who were the two witnesses) will perform wonders and fire will reign from sky, the beast himself will have a servant, the false prophet, and what will he do? Perform such wonders that if it were possible, he would deceive even the elect. Has anything like this happened in 70 AD? No

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are different. Luke 21 does describe the siege on Jerusalem. Although with Luke 21 I am not 100% sure like with Matthew 24.

 

[RandyPNW]

So if you agree with the late date of John's Revelation, why do you then believe the book of Revelation has already been fulfilled in 70AD?

I don't. What made you think I believe that? I don't believe the book of Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD! Let me just say that before I say anything more.

 

[RandyPNW]

Chapters 2 & 3 describe the age of the Church, so now, and then look how chapter 4 starts
Verse 1 'After this I looked' In Greek, this verse starts with meta tauta...so chapter 4 starts with the things that are 'after this' from rev 1:19. So chapter 2 & 3 are the age of the Church, which is from pentecost until the rapture, and then we have chapter 4. From chapter 4 you have the 7 years tribulation, until chapter 20, it also gives you the timeline. That's why the Church is no longer on Earth from chapter 4, because they are in Heaven, attending the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

This is the typical Dispensational perspective, which I have long abandoned. It is predicated on a future 70th Week of Daniel, which I reject. The majority of early Church Fathers rejected it, as well, although at least two Church Fathers accepted it, namely Irenaeus and Hippolytus.

The reason I reject a future 70th Week of Daniel is because it is, quite frankly, illogical. To separate the 69 Weeks of Daniel from the 70th Week would render the fulfillment a vastly longer period of time than the 70 Weeks we are dealing with. It would be this equation: 69 Weeks + the New Testament era + 1 Week = 2000+ Years! This is not 70 Weeks, or 490 Years. The would make the biblical "70 Weeks" period a lie, or misrepresentation.

So I feel the 70th Week quite naturally followed the 69 Weeks to make a period of just less than 490 years, accounting for the loss of the last half of the 70th Week--the entire period was cut short by the death of Christ. To make it even clearer to me, we are informed that the "Abomination of Desolation" immediately follows the "cutting off of the Anointed One," consisting of the "destruction of the city and the sanctuary," which took place in 70 AD.

The fall of Jerusalem, according to Jesus in Luke 21, led into a long period of Jewish Dispersion which today we call the "Jewish Diaspora." It was to last until the "Son of Man" returns on the clouds of heaven. There is nothing in this about a "7 Year Tribulation." The "Tribulation," as I indicated, is the long period of Jewish Diaspora which began in 70 AD.

We are told, in Dan 7, that Antichrist would try to oppose the coming of Christ's Kingdom for 3.5 years at the end of the age. And so, the book of Revelation speaks a number of times of this 3.5 year time period. But it is never said to be 7 years! Again, that idea is based upon the presumption of Dispensationalism and a future interpretation of Daniel's 70th Week. You can decide for yourself what you wish to believe.

Furthermore, the disaster in the book of revelation are world-wide events, whilst what happened to 70 AD happened only to Jerusalem.

I do not believe that what happened in 70 AD fulfilled the book of Revelation! I agree that the events spoken of in the book of Revelation expands the horizon from Israel to the whole world. It is world judgment.

Now, back to Matthew 24. When I look at the text, it just does not fit to all the events that happened in 70 AD.

Not all, but most. The few signs in the Olivet Discourse that do not fit Jesus' generation were the preaching of the Gospel, which lasts age-long, the Jewish Diaspora, which again is age-long, and the restoration of Israel, which takes place at the coming of the Son of Man.

Matthew 24 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. - what has this to do for the Church?

I never said the "flight on the Sabbath" had to do with the Church. It had to do with Jewish believers, which are only a small part of the Church.

This prophecy was directed, in the time of the Law, to Jewish disciples who would later be a part of the Church. Since this was primariliy a prophecy directed towards Israel, non-Jewish Christians can apply the same concepts to their own experience in fallen Christian nations.

Who was commanded to keep the Sabbath? Israel. This is only for Israel. Some Christians tragically believe Sunday is the new Sabbath. That's completely wrong. Sunday is the first day after Sabbath when our Lord was resurrected. So we see this is only for Israel.

Again, we agree that this was speaking of the Sabbath, which was still being practiced by Jewish unbelievers. Jewish believers had to manage to escape the coming Roman invasion by avoiding problems with unbelieving Jews, who sought to impose Sabbath restrictions even in the NT time period.

There were Christians in Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Of course there were Christians in Jerusalem in 70 AD. But most of the Jewish believers who obeyed Jesus had fled to the hlls by 70 AD!

So this event is in the future, when the Church is no longer on Earth.

Where does this Discourse indicate the Church is "no longer on Earth?"

Who is Matthew 24 written for? For the Jews living during the big tribulation.

Yes, the Jewish believers had to bear with their circumstances being Jews living within their cultural group, who at the time were unbelieving Jews. So they were persecuted by unbelieving Jews, as well as persecuted by the pagan Romans. It was "tribulational!"

And Jewish believers have had to suffer the loss of their ethnic homeland for 2000 years along with their unbelieving brethren. Though they did not bring on this Jewish punishment, it is their call to suffer along with their ethnic group to some degree.

In the same way, Christians in other nations have had to suffer the problems brought on by their own apostate Christian countrymen. How do you think Christians felt under the Nazi regime? It was tribulation for men like Bonhoeffer.

'21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.'
What happened in 70AD was tragic, but it was not as bad as what happened during the Holocaust.

I agree. But I think what makes the Tribulation so "Great" is not that it is more severe than other forms of suffering and dying, but that it is a punishment that lasts far longer than the Babylonian Captivity, far longer than any Israeli punishment in history. And since Christ will bring an end to this abuse by the nations, Israel will never suffer this kind of tribulation again.

But what do we read about the great tribulation? Not only the 2 witnesses (honestly if this happened in 70 AD, who were the two witnesses) will perform wonders and fire will reign from sky, the beast himself will have a servant, the false prophet, and what will he do? Perform such wonders that if it were possible, he would deceive even the elect. Has anything like this happened in 70 AD? No

As I said, I do not believe that the 70 AD event was the "great tribulation." I believe the Great Tribulation is the Jewish Diaspora.

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are different. Luke 21 does describe the siege on Jerusalem. Although with Luke 21 I am not 100% sure like with Matthew 24.

I think every version of the Olivet Discourse described, consistently, the same Discourse. Luke's version was little different from Mark's version or Matthew's version. Things are expressed in eaach author's own words, but comparing them they say the same things. I know--I've done minute studies on this, and am willing to prove it.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

I don't. What made you think I believe that? I don't believe the book of Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD! Let me just say that before I say anything more.

Then I apologise. I must have misunderstood what you said.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

The reason I reject a future 70th Week of Daniel is because it is, quite frankly, illogical. To separate the 69 Weeks of Daniel from the 70th Week would render the fulfillment a vastly longer period of time than the 70 Weeks we are dealing with. It would be this equation: 69 Weeks + the New Testament era + 1 Week = 2000+ Years! This is not 70 Weeks, or 490 Years. The would make the biblical "70 Weeks" period a lie, or misrepresentation.

The seventieth week is cut off the other sixty-nine, so we can’t count that one.

Daniel 9 verse 25: “Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem.” The 490 years will begin when there is a command, or a decree, to rebuild Jerusalem. That decree is stated in Nehemiah chapter l, and in Nehemiah chapter 2. And we know that that decree was either in 444 B.C. or 445.

When did it end? Verse 25. It would be four hundred and eighty-three years unto the Messiah the Prince, because it says, “That will be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks.” Now seven and threescore and two equals what? Sixty-two. And seven is sixty-nine. From the restoration and the building decree to Messiah the Prince, Mashiach Nagid, when He comes in an official presentation will be sixty-nine weeks.

Now in the first seven weeks, the rest of the verse says, “the street will be built again and the wall.” And those terms really mean the inside and the outside of the city. So in the first forty-nine years from Artaxerxes’ decree, the city was rebuilt. And then in the years remaining to fill up 483 years, the Messiah would come. So from the time of the decree of Artaxerxes to the arrival of Messiah would be 483 years, the triumphal entry of Jesus Christ into the city. And so the Word of God has given to us this amazing, incredible, accurate prophecy.

Let’s look at verse 26 “And after” – “after threescore and two weeks” – that is, you’ve got the seven, and then the threescore and two, after sixty-nine weeks – “shall Messiah be” – what? – “cut off.” It doesn’t say during the sixty-nine weeks, it says – what? – after.

Now this is essential to complete the prophecy. There is yet one more week left. But before you get to that week, look at verse 27. There you have one week. Do you see it? “He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.” Before you get to the one week, you have a gap in verse 26. Now mark that in your mind. There is a gap there. That is utterly essential to the understanding of this prophecy. The seventy weeks did not run sequentially right through the seventieth week; there’s a gap here.

And here’s another thing that’s going to happen after the sixty-nine weeks – not during, but after; that’s how the verse begins. “And the people of the prince that shall come.” Now here you’ve got a prince with a little “P”, not a big one. Who’s this prince? Who is the prince that shall come? Antichrist.

This is the Antichrist. So, “After the 483 years – “Messiah will be cut off,” – that is executed like a common criminal, “and then” “the people of the prince that shall come.” When the final Antichrist comes, with what people will he be identified?

There was a great period of time unperceived by the Old Testament prophets. That’s why Peter says they were searching the time that all of this would come to pass – 1 Peter 1:11 – because they didn’t understand the gap. In fact, in Luke 4, Jesus quotes from the Old Testament, and says, “All of this has come to pass in My life,” and He leaves out the part that speaks of the future, because He recognizes the gap. And the gap, friends, is the church age. Paul calls it “the mystery period,” unseen in the Old Testament – a parenthesis, if you will.

We’re living in that time now, the church age. And that’s why the Lord could say, “No man knows the day nor hour.” Not for you to know the times or the seasons. You see, if it was all exact 490 years, we’d all know. But the gap means none of us knows.

Verse 27 “And he shall confirm the Antichrist makes a league with them for seven years.” This is very important. He comes as a great hero to them. - Did Nero come as a hero to the Jews? No. He could not have been the Antichrist.

According to the prophets, is when that final confederacy of Europe comes together, out of that confederacy will rise this one great world ruler called the little horn or the Antichrist, as you would call him, and this world ruler will come to the rescue of Israel, and make a treaty to protect Israel.

Ezekiel says Israel will be so, so secure, and feeling so good about the protection offered by the Antichrist’s treaty, that in Ezekiel’s prophecy it says she is living in unwalled villages. In other words, they really believe they are well-protected. And we’ll get in to what happens when Russia comes to conquer Israel.

And so they will make a covenant with the Antichrist, the final ruler of the revived Roman Empire. But he’s a liar. He’s vile, right out of the pit of hell. And so it says in verse 27, “In the middle of the week.” Now what is the middle of seven? Good class; coming along. Three-and-a-half. “In the middle of the week, he will cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.”

 

[RandyPNW]

Then I apologise. I must have misunderstood what you said.

I have a set of beliefs that are uncommonly put together. That's because I've borrowed from a variety of prophetic schools, without bias.

In fact, I think that one of the reasons there are so many diverse schools is because no one school has all of the answers. It's unfortunate that one school cannot have a meeting of the minds with another school!

Anyway, I don't fault you for misjudging what I say. My particular set of beliefs is hard to folllow with the backdrop of these schools. When you hear one school's position, you might think that I'm following every one of their positions.

But I don't. I'm a Futurist who doesn't hold to all that Futurists typically believe. I'm not a Dispensationalist but I believe in Israel's future Salvation. I'm a Premillennialist like the early Premillennialists of the Early Church, but not a Replacement Theology advocate like many of them were.

I don't hold to the 7 years Tribulation, but only a 3.5 years Tribulation, and feel that the 70th Week of Daniel was fulfilled in history, in the time of Christ. I feel that the Great Tribulation is the Jewish Diaspora of the NT era, and not the Reign of Antichrist. Shall I go on and confuse you about what I believe some more?

My apologies--I'm not always clear in how I communicate these things. But neither do I blame myself too much! Take care....

 

[Hazelelponi]

That's from Revelation 18 and the fall of Babylon the great.
Ok so far we have a city that believes her husband is a King and that this King is alive and well , and that she is somehow blessed because of her affilliation to him.

So who is this King..?

Christ.

She is dressed like a queen (she claims marriage to the King) and she has royal colors, all the colors and cup she's holding are associated with the 12 tribes of Israel and the Temple.

The Queen of Babylon in Jesus' day was the Jews up to her destruction in 70 AD, then her spirit went to the apostate Christian church and will be in the end times apostate church.

For her identity she's the apostate church of all times, but comes alive when she can join with government to persecute the Church; a church which includes all the Old Testament Saint's and believers - or the Prophets and the Saint's - as well as the New Covenant believers as we are all saved by faith in Christ.

 

[RandyPNW]

Christ.

She is dressed like a queen (she claims marriage to the King) and she has royal colors, all the colors and jewels she's wearing are associated with the 12 tribes of Israel and the Temple.

The Queen of Babylon in Jesus' day was the Jews up to her destruction in 70 AD, then her spirit went to the Christian church and will be in the end times apostate church.

For her identity she's the apostate church of all times, but comes alive when she can join with government to persecute the Church; a church which includes all the Old Testament Saint's and believers - or the Prophets and the Saint's - as well as the New Covenant believers as we are all saved by faith in Christ.

Very interesting reply. I think I'm on board that one!

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

There had to still be a temple in Jerusalem for John to measure as he was commanded to do.

the temple John measures is the millennium temple as described in Ezekiel

John does not state that it was during the reign of Domitian.

Not John but Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Victorinus (who wrote one of the earliest commentaries on Revelation), Eusebius, and Jerome.

Irenaeus was not living when John wrote the Book of Revelation.

I did not live when Jesus lived either, does not mean I don't know when He lived.

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be......34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. See Matthew 24:1-26.

What happened in 70AD was tragic, but it was not as bad as what happened during the Holocaust. So how can this then apply to 70AD when the holocaust was even a bigger tribulation? It does not. We only see the increase in tribulation, when we know it will get even worse. So clearly Matthew 24 talks about a futuristic event. But we know when the greatest tribulation will be...when archangel Michael throwns down satan from heaven to earth. That's what we read in Daniel 12, because when satan is thrown out of heaven, the tribulation of the Jews will be the biggest that ever was.

22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
This does not apply to 70AD.

23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’
In year 70, who was telling people 'oh look, there is Christ'. This verse relates to the end, because the Lord says that at the end, many will rise in His name a say 'it is me'

24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders
Tell me about great signs and wonders that were performed in 70 AD. I read nothing about any great wonders happening back then. But today, with today's technology, AI, holograms etc. we see where this is heading

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Satan was bound by the power of Jesus' death on the cross in 33 AD. The first resurrection also occurred in 33 AD. Matthew 27:52-53
Jesus accompanied all the spirits in Abraham's bosom to heaven after He opened the gates of heaven, which had been barred by Adam's sin. Genesis 3:24

Rev 20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

So not only will be satan chained (like some of the fallen angels already are) he will be thrown to bottomless pit and shut sealed, and he will not deceive nations any longer. You telling me that satan is deceiving no one for the past 2,000 years with all the world wars, holocaust, all the persecution, false religion etc. What was he doing before Christ came when all these evil is going on today, Sodom and Gomorah were pale in comparison what happened the past century.

Let me show you what the world will look like when satan is bound.

Isaiah 11 6 The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. 9 They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.
This is how peaceful it will be.

Isaiah 65 20 No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.
There will be a time, when people who die as 100 years old will be considered young. When has this happened after the time of Isaiah. This points to millennium.

Zechariah 14 16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. 17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
I am not aware of any nations going to Jerusalem today to worship the Lord, are you? This is clearly pointing to millennium.
As does the Ezekiel temple

All of the New Testament was written before the deaths of Peter and Paul, even the Book of Hebrews.

Many theologians say Matthew was not even written yet in 70AD. Even the earliest dates are 60-65 AD. Siege of Jerusalem started in 63AD, the book of Matthew may have not even be written yet, so there were no readers of Matthew in 63 AD.

The gospel had already been preached to the whole known world.

The text was does not say the whole known world, but the whole world.

Nero was not the Antichrist. The Antichrist will deceive the Jews and they will accept him as a Messiah. Have the Jews ever called Nero a Messiah? Has Nero ever had covenant of peace with Israel? No. The Antichrist would deceive the elect if it was possible. Nero never deceived anyone.

The Bible describes the Antichrist being defeated at the second coming of Jesus Christ (Revelation 19:11–21). Nero died by suicide.

The book of Revelation puts the defeat of the Antichrist near the end of the prophetic calendar. In the book of Revelation, the Antichrist is defeated at the second coming of Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire shortly before the establishment of the millennial reign of Christ (Revelation 19:11—20:6).

The Antichrist will bring a false peace. He will be worshipped by the Jews and false Christians alike. He will deceive them easily. That's not Nero. While Nero is a type of Antichrist he is not the Antichrist.

There is so many flaws with saying the book of revelation is 63-70AD
For example the two witnesses from rev 11
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. 6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire. 7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit[a] will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically[b] is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, 10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. 11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.

So you are telling me these two were in Jerusalem in 70AD, the fire poured from their mouth. They were killed and people were so happy they were sharing gifts with each other, and they were resurrected after 3.5 days? Why can't I find a record of such event anywhere? This will clearly happen in the future.

 

[RandyPNW]

the temple John measures is the millennium temple as described in Ezekiel

Yes, the temple in Rev 11 is certainly not Herod's Temple! This act of measuring the temple is similar to Ezekiel's vision of the temple, which was in fact a vision. The temple at that time had been destroyed, and the temple was seen up on a mountain--the mountain the real temple had been built on was fairly low down.

So I think this vision in Rev 11 was symbolic, and may vey well be looking forward to something. I just don't think there will be a Millennial temple. I could be wrong, but theologically, the temple is currently the Church. I don't think that will change in the Millennium while the current Church is in heaven and new Christians will be born as mortals during the Millennial age.

The Ezekiel Temple did look forward to a literal rebulding of the temple. But John's Temple looks forward to the Church achieving some kind of "temple" status, as well, though I don't believe it will be a literal building.

What happened in 70AD was tragic, but it was not as bad as what happened during the Holocaust. So how can this then apply to 70AD when the holocaust was even a bigger tribulation? It does not. We only see the increase in tribulation, when we know it will get even worse. So clearly Matthew 24 talks about a futuristic event. But we know when the greatest tribulation will be...when archangel Michael throwns down satan from heaven to earth. That's what we read in Daniel 12, because when satan is thrown out of heaven, the tribulation of the Jews will be the biggest that ever was.

Actually, I think the account in Rev 12, which was highly symbolic, portrays in an almost timeless way what happened at the cross, in the context of the endtimes. Satan was defeated at the cross, and he is now active on earth trying to obstruct the coming of God's Kingdom through Antichrist.

But the "great tribulation" is, as I've said elsewhere, not the Reign of Antichrist, but rather, the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age. What made it the "worst" Jewish punishment was the fact it is so long in time--not that it is more severe than other punishments. In terms of length of time it is, in fact, more severe!

Note that the fear is that Jews will cease to exist unless God stops it. That has been the threat through the NT age, with all of the Anti-Semitism and some efforts at genocide. With the whole world rising against tiny Israel, you'd think they can't survive. But I believe they will.

But this is just my 2 cents worth. You decide what you think is more biblical?

22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
This does not apply to 70AD.

23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’
In year 70, who was telling people 'oh look, there is Christ'. This verse relates to the end, because the Lord says that at the end, many will rise in His name a say 'it is me'

24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders
Tell me about great signs and wonders that were performed in 70 AD. I read nothing about any great wonders happening back then. But today, with today's technology, AI, holograms etc. we see where this is heading

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

the temple is currently the Church.

Yes it is

I just don't think there will be a Millennial temple.

Look at the temple described in Ezekiel. The size of the temple does not match the size or characteristics of any of the temple that existed. Nor is it the Church as the Ezekiel's temple gives such details, even the kitchen is described that. 8 chapters are devoted to this temple. That has to be a real building, not some allegory.

The Scripture also prophesised Messiah will sit on David's throne in Jerusalem. And the Israel described in Genesis 15 was never such size. That to me points to the millennium. Polycarp, disciple of Apostle John also believed in future physical millennium.

But the "great tribulation" is, as I've said elsewhere, not the Reign of Antichrist,

The great tribulation is the 7 bowls of God's wrath that will be poured on Earth. During this period, the antichrist will persecute and kill many Jews, two thirds as Zechariah prophesises. This is when 'But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”' This is believe is the great tribulation described in Matthew 24.

But this is just my 2 cents worth. You decide what you think is more biblical?

I know there are things I am wrong about, I just don't know what they are. Maybe eschatology is I'm wrong about and you are correct. It is good then we can look together in the Scripture and study it.

 

[CoreyD]

That's from Revelation 18 and the fall of Babylon the great.
Ok so far we have a city that believes her husband is a King and that this King is alive and well , and that she is somehow blessed because of her affilliation to him.

So who is this King..?

Jezebel sat on the throne as queen, did she.
I don't recall her believing she had a king. Did she?

 

[CoreyD]

That's from Revelation 18 and the fall of Babylon the great.
Ok so far we have a city that believes her husband is a King and that this King is alive and well , and that she is somehow blessed because of her affilliation to him.

So who is this King..?

To get a good perspective on the harlots words, we can recall the nation of Israel.
They also became a harlot, and they claimed to have God as husband, thus claiming that they were not widowed.
Even the Pharisees in Jesus' day claimed that they were not born from adultery... claiming that God is their father. John 8

The play on words, highlight that this harlot, is supposed to be married to God - his church, but she is not, because she committed spiritual sexual immorality.

Her identity is plainly revealed in Revelation 18.
She is unfaithful religion... all of them... and they continue to claim to be of God... but are not.

This is why God warns those who would be his people, to get out of her. Revelation 18:4

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

She is unfaithful religion

Yes. She is the spiritual Babylon, mother of all the w*ores a k.a. all the false religions. False religion started at the tower of Babel.

 

[RandyPNW]

Look at the temple described in Ezekiel. The size of the temple does not match the size or characteristics of any of the temple that existed. Nor is it the Church as the Ezekiel's temple gives such details, even the kitchen is described that. 8 chapters are devoted to this temple. That has to be a real building, not some allegory.

I'll tell you how I see Ezekiel's Temple, Ivan. I see it given in great detail because even though it was symbolic of the Millennial Church, in particular Israel's inclusion in it, this vision was given in a time when Temple Law was still in effect, and the Temple was going to be literally rebuilt.

So all of these details spoke to the priests of a coming restoration, not just of the building of the 2nd Temple, but even more, a restored temple that implied some serious corrections needed to be made. We know that the Temple was rebuilt, and did involve reform of a kind. But being that the actual corrections were not actually made we must conclude that Ezekile's Temple was just a model to elicit reform, and not actually call for a literal Temple to built by those specification.

The Ezekiel Temple, then, was symbolic of the need for reform, and given in a quite literal model. But being that it was symbolic, the model was not built but was viewed primarily as an incentive to reform, ultimately leading to a completely new kind of Temple in the Millennium. Some specifications would not be literally followed, but what they represented, symbolically, would lead to actual fulfillment in heaven, namely the creation of the Church. As well, this Church would be fulfilled on earth in the Millennium, and would include the Salvation of national Israel, as well.

This Temple represented a redeemed Israel in the Millennium, but for Ezekiel, who spoke while under the Law, this Temple was primarily focused on Israel at the time because under the Law only Israel was God's covenant People. So this Temple represented Israel's role in the new Temple, even though we know the Gentile nations have now been included in the same Temple.

We see the inclusion of many nations in the New Jerusalem of Rev 21. It was bult on the 12 Apostles and on the 12 tribes of Israel. But it is inclusive of all of God's People, from all nations. All nations bring their treasures into the holy city.

The Temple, therefore, represents not a literal building in the Millennium, but all of God's People. God will be with His People forever. And as Hebrews teaches us, the Temple Law has been intended to look forward to the Church, a new kind of Temple.

The Scripture also prophesised Messiah will sit on David's throne in Jerusalem. And the Israel described in Genesis 15 was never such size. That to me points to the millennium. Polycarp, disciple of Apostle John also believed in future physical millennium.

Yes, I think reference to a future "Son of David" is a term much like how we use "Son of Man." It is a proper noun referring to the Messiah. It is used to convey the idea that Israel will literally be restored in a political sense, as a nation.

It does not have to mean that a literal Temple will be rebuilt. I personally think it means Israel will become God's eternal Temple, along with all of the many nations who have given themselves to Jesus.

The great tribulation is the 7 bowls of God's wrath that will be poured on Earth.

I see no biblical basis for this assertion. We see the "Great Tribulation" in Dan 12, which follows chronological the demise of Antiochus 4 and the inferred rise of the Roman king in Dan 11. And the same term is used by Jesus in Luke 21 to refer to the Jewish Diaspora.

The 7 bowls of wrath take place, I think, at the very end of the 3.5 year Reign of Antichrist, because these bowls are poured out on him. This outpouring of God's Wrath will certainly impact the world, just as an earthquake shaking evil cities affects even the righteous within the vicinity. But the wrath is being poured out to judge the wicked, and not the righteous.

By contrast, the "great tribulation" is described in Luke 21 as a Jewish "punishment." It is not just God's wrath upon the Jews in a moment of time, but more, a vastly extended punishment that threatens even their ethnic existence.

During this period, the antichrist will persecute and kill many Jews, two thirds as Zechariah prophesises. This is when 'But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”' This is believe is the great tribulation described in Matthew 24.

Zech 12-14 surveys the entire NT period with two different emphases. One is on the sin of Israel in rejecting their Shepherd. The other is on the last days, when nations surrounding Israel attack her, but fail.

I know there are things I am wrong about, I just don't know what they are. Maybe eschatology is I'm wrong about and you are correct. It is good then we can look together in the Scripture and study it.

Yes, you're wise to not claim you're right about everything. I share your humility and must submit to the Lord in everything, being correctable and not stubborn like so many are. I do not demand agreement from all to what I'm saying--I'm just sharing what I presently think. God bless!

 

[Jan001]

I've changed my views 100s of times and in 100s of ways. The 1st commentary on Revelation I read was in about 1971 by a scholar named Lenski. He described everything in symbolic terms, and everything he said I held onto like gold...until I read the next commentary. But then I was quite young.

When I read Hal Lindsey, I began to hold onto everything he had to say...until I became a convinced Postribulationist. From that time to this I've gone through a long series of changes, which has been helped by my listening even to those from other schools of interpretation. I think what you said was wise--very wise.

I was quite young in 1971 also.

 

[Jan001]

Rev 20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

So not only will be satan chained (like some of the fallen angels already are) he will be thrown to bottomless pit and shut sealed, and he will not deceive nations any longer. You telling me that satan is deceiving no one for the past 2,000 years with all the world wars, holocaust, all the persecution, false religion etc. What was he doing before Christ came when all these evil is going on today, Sodom and Gomorah were pale in comparison what happened the past century.

Let me show you what the world will look like when satan is bound.

Isaiah 11 6 The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. 9 They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.
This is how peaceful it will be.

Isaiah 65 20 No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.
There will be a time, when people who die as 100 years old will be considered young. When has this happened after the time of Isaiah. This points to millennium.

Zechariah 14 16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. 17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
I am not aware of any nations going to Jerusalem today to worship the Lord, are you? This is clearly pointing to millennium.
As does the Ezekiel temple


Many theologians say Matthew was not even written yet in 70AD. Even the earliest dates are 60-65 AD. Siege of Jerusalem started in 63AD, the book of Matthew may have not even be written yet, so there were no readers of Matthew in 63 AD.


The text was does not say the whole known world, but the whole world.

Nero was not the Antichrist. The Antichrist will deceive the Jews and they will accept him as a Messiah. Have the Jews ever called Nero a Messiah? Has Nero ever had covenant of peace with Israel? No. The Antichrist would deceive the elect if it was possible. Nero never deceived anyone.

The Bible describes the Antichrist being defeated at the second coming of Jesus Christ (Revelation 19:11–21). Nero died by suicide.

The book of Revelation puts the defeat of the Antichrist near the end of the prophetic calendar. In the book of Revelation, the Antichrist is defeated at the second coming of Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire shortly before the establishment of the millennial reign of Christ (Revelation 19:11—20:6).

The Antichrist will bring a false peace. He will be worshipped by the Jews and false Christians alike. He will deceive them easily. That's not Nero. While Nero is a type of Antichrist he is not the Antichrist.

There is so many flaws with saying the book of revelation is 63-70AD
For example the two witnesses from rev 11
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. 6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire. 7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit[a] will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically[b] is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, 10 and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. 11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.

So you are telling me these two were in Jerusalem in 70AD, the fire poured from their mouth. They were killed and people were so happy they were sharing gifts with each other, and they were resurrected after 3.5 days? Why can't I find a record of such event anywhere? This will clearly happen in the future.

I believe much of the Book of Revelation is symbolic. The two witnesses were the Law and the Prophets. Moses represented the Law and Elijah represented the Prophets.

Matthew 17:1-8
Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. 7 But Jesus came and touched them and said, “Arise, and do not be afraid.” 8 When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.

Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

Perhaps Enoch and Elijah will come to preach to the Jews before Jesus' second coming. Neither of these men have physically died.

Matthew 17:10-13
And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?”
11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

I doubt we will ever agree about what we think it means. We can agree to disagree.

 

[Jan001]

"I stand with Israel."

What do you mean by this statement?