She says In her heart I sit as queen and am no widow

[bniffty24]

That's from Revelation 18 and the fall of Babylon the great.
Ok so far we have a city that believes her husband is a King and that this King is alive and well , and that she is somehow blessed because of her affilliation to him.

So who is this King..?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

That's from Revelation 18 and the fall of Babylon the great.
Ok so far we have a city that believes her husband is a King and that this King is alive and well , and that she is somehow blessed because of her affilliation to him.

So who is this King..?

Revelation 18 spesks of unrepentant Israel aka Jerusalem.
Blessings

 

[RandyPNW]

That's from Revelation 18 and the fall of Babylon the great.
Ok so far we have a city that believes her husband is a King and that this King is alive and well , and that she is somehow blessed because of her affilliation to him.

So who is this King..?

A "king" is not in the picture. She sits as "queen."

Rev 18. In her heart she boasts,
‘I sit enthroned as queen.

There is no emphasis on a "king" at all. This harlot is the city of Rome which is called, cryptically, "Babylon the Great."

 

[bniffty24]

There is no emphasis on a "king" at all.

Well I think there is.
A queen must have a King otherwise she is not a Queen.
She is not a widow so her husband the King must be alive , and so on and so forth.

The only reason that I can see that you say no King is shown , is because you chose Rome.
Had you chosen Vatican city we could say her husband is Jesus Christ. And if Jerusalem we could say God/Yahweh.
And if Mecca , we could say Allah.

But you chose Rome and are now trying to make it fit by saying no King is involved ( Rolls eyes )
You can always change your view point , theres an empty chair on my side just waiting for a nice fella like yourself....

 

[RandyPNW]

Well I think there is.
A queen must have a King otherwise she is not a Queen.
She is not a widow so her husband the King must be alive , and so on and so forth.

The only reason that I can see that you say no King is shown , is because you chose Rome.
Had you chosen Vatican city we could say her husband is Jesus Christ. And if Jerusalem we could say God/Yahweh.
And if Mecca , we could say Allah.

But you chose Rome and are now trying to make it fit by saying no King is involved ( Rolls eyes )
You can always change your view point , theres an empty chair on my side just waiting for a nice fella like yourself....

No, I don't think a Queen needs to have a King. And being that it is a metaphor, it doubly doesn't require a literal king.

Not only is Rome cryptically implied, because John couldn't just come out and say it, but he makes it an easy guess for Christians (or the Holy Spirit did). He identified it as the ruling city, which at the time was Rome.

And he identified it as "Mystery Babylon," indicating the title "Babylon" was esoteric, or reflective of another city with Babylon-like characteristics. You may or may not make the connection between Babylon and Rome?

We are given two riddles, fairly easy for Christians to solve, if they were familiar with the book of Daniel. In Dan 2 and 7 there are a series of 4 kingdoms given, beginning with Babylon. The last in the series of 4 was Rome.

The puzzles involved 7 hills, known to be Rome, which had 7 hills. The other puzzle was that this "king" or "kingdom" was the 6th among 7 biblical kings-- Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome.

I'm not "making" things fit. They just fit quite naturally for me. I'll pull a chair up and we can discuss it...right here and now, if you wish? I don't at all mind if you disagree.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

That's from Revelation 18 and the fall of Babylon the great.
Ok so far we have a city that believes her husband is a King and that this King is alive and well , and that she is somehow blessed because of her affilliation to him.

So who is this King..?

The prostitute from Rev 18 is the mother of all the false religion, false Christianity, false Judaism.

She is also mentioned in the 7th Zechariah's vision, see Zech 5.

Let's remember, it was at the tower of Babel where the false religion started. That's why she is called Babylon the great Harlot. She has many daughters, for example unfaithful Israel, unfaithul Judah. That's why God calls them many time a prostitute (that's a soft version).

And this false religion system works with the kings of the earth to gain riches, and murders God's people. Let's remember, it was the false religion that crucified Jesus, and many of the prophets.

God's judgement will come as we can read. She will be destroyed by the earthly kings she fornicates with to have power, and the antichrist power by satan will destroy her.

Because false religion works with satan to have earthly power, but uses her as he hates her as he worships only himself. So God will use satan to destroy false religion. The ones this harlot has fornicate with, will destroy her. As we seen many times in scripture already. Unfaithful Israel lived in adultary with Assyrians, and God used Assyria to destroy her.

 

[Jan001]

A "king" is not in the picture. She sits as "queen."

Rev 18. In her heart she boasts,
‘I sit enthroned as queen.

There is no emphasis on a "king" at all. This harlot is the city of Rome which is called, cryptically, "Babylon the Great."

I think the Book of Revelation prophesied the soon-to-be destruction of the harlot, Jerusalem, and her temple. This destruction will fulfill the 70th week of Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy. The New Testament was written for first-century Christians. We later Christians benefit from it, of course, but it was written for them. These early Christians knew who the lawless one was. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12)

The early Christians believed Nero was the antichrist (666 or 613). Nero believed he was a god. His successor, Titus, burnt down the temple. According to Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, the Romans stopped the daily sacrifices, which was seen as a desecration to the Jews. Later, Titus' armies entered the temple and worshipped their idols there. Link, Link

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

Jesus Christ put an end to (finished) the transgressions committed against the first covenant by his sacrificial death on the cross. He ratified his New Covenant by his own blood shed on the cross. Hebrews 9:15


Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, keep the words secret and the book sealed until the time of the end.

The time of the end began with Jesus' birth.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 in order to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as children.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near.

Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

Jesus told his followers to flee Judea when they saw the Roman armies building encampments around Jerusalem. Luke 21:20-21, Matthew 24:14-15

Daniel 9:24 Shivi’im heptads is decreed upon thy people and upon thy Ir Kodesh (Holy City), to restrain the peysha (transgression), and to make an end of chattat (sin), and to make kapporah for avon, and to bring in Tzedek Olamim (Everlasting Righteousness), and to seal up the chazon and navi, and to anoint the Kodesh HaKodashim. (Holy of Holies-Inner sanctuary of the temple)

Jesus Christ is the Holy of Holies. He is our temple. He was anointed by his father.

Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,

Revelation 21:22 I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

The New Jerusalem in heaven has its own temple.


The temple in Jerusalem was still standing when the Book of Revelation was written. It seems to me that John was on Patmos near the end of the great tribulation, which was prophesied by Jesus Christ for their own generation. (Matthew 24:34) John wrote this book there on Patmos and said the time of its fulfillment was near. He was told to not seal it up for a later time, as was Daniel's book. Revelation 22:10, Daniel 12:4

Revelation 11:1-2 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Come and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.

Revelation1:1 I, John, your brother who share with you in Jesus the persecution and the kingdom and the patient endurance, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

 

[RandyPNW]

I think the Book of Revelation prophesied the soon-to-be destruction of the harlot, Jerusalem, and her temple. This destruction will fulfill the 70th week of Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy. The New Testament was written for first-century Christians. We later Christians benefit from it, of course, but it was written for them. These early Christians knew who the lawless one was. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12)

The Prophets do identify Jerusalem as a harlot at times of particular compromise and apostasy. But she is not identified as THE Harlot for all time, as if that is her eternal label.

Yes, the NT was written to 1st century Christians, but succeeding generations felt the material was inspired to apply to all generations. I do believe that the "desolation" spoken of in Dan 9, which was to follow the 70th Week, involved the invasion of Jerusalem by the Roman armies.

But I think Revelation was written after that event and refers to the Harlot Rome, who Daniel saw as the 4th Beast continuing until the end of the age and the inception of God's Kingdom. Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, and has not continued in her role as "harlot." She had ceased to exist as the capital of Israel, and only in modern times as emerged as the new capital of modern Israel. So I don't believe Jerusalem is the Harlot of Rev 17.

On the other hand, Rome began as a city hostile to believers, but could not really be viewed as a harlot until she had become Christian. After that, she can turn to apostasy and become, like Israel, a harlot and an apostate. That has gradually been happening, considering some of the things corrupt popes have done, and lately with the current Pope who is tolerant of wayward Catholics and wayward Catholic lifestyles.

The early Christians believed Nero was the antichrist (666 or 613). Nero believed he was a god.

I think all of the emperors were thought to be gods initially?

His successor, Titus, burnt down the temple.

Titus was not the immediate successor to Nero. I believe Vespasian came in between them. But yes, Titus was ultimately a successor.

According to Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, the Romans stopped the daily sacrifices, which was seen as a desecration to the Jews. Later, Titus' armies entered the temple and worshipped their idols there. Link, Link

I do believe that the 70 AD event was the fulfillment of Dan 9.26-27, and that the Abomination of Desolation was the Roman Army desolating Jerusalem and the Temple at that time.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

Jesus Christ put an end to (finished) the transgressions committed against the first covenant by his sacrificial death on the cross. He ratified his New Covenant by his own blood shed on the cross. Hebrews 9:15


Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, keep the words secret and the book sealed until the time of the end.

The time of the end began with Jesus' birth.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 in order to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as children.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near.

Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

Jesus told his followers to flee Judea when they saw the Roman armies building encampments around Jerusalem. Luke 21:20-21, Matthew 24:14-15

Daniel 9:24 Shivi’im heptads is decreed upon thy people and upon thy Ir Kodesh (Holy City), to restrain the peysha (transgression), and to make an end of chattat (sin), and to make kapporah for avon, and to bring in Tzedek Olamim (Everlasting Righteousness), and to seal up the chazon and navi, and to anoint the Kodesh HaKodashim. (Holy of Holies-Inner sanctuary of the temple)

Jesus Christ is the Holy of Holies. He is our temple. He was anointed by his father.

Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free,

Revelation 21:22 I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

The New Jerusalem in heaven has its own temple.


The temple in Jerusalem was still standing when the Book of Revelation was written.

That is debatable. Many believe Revelation was written after the Temple was destroyed by the Romans.

It seems to me that John was on Patmos near the end of the great tribulation, which was prophesied by Jesus Christ for their own generation.

In my view, the "Great Tribulation" was not merely the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, but also the entire NT Jewish Diaspora, which issued out of that event. Otherwise, it would not have been the "greatest catastrophe ever in the history of Israel."

Matt 24.21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

(Matthew 24:34) John wrote this book there on Patmos and said the time of its fulfillment was near. He was told to not seal it up for a later time, as was Daniel's book. Revelation 22:10, Daniel 12:4

Revelation 11:1-2 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Come and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.

Revelation1:1 I, John, your brother who share with you in Jesus the persecution and the kingdom and the patient endurance, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Thank you for your thoughts. It seems there is much that we can agree on?

 

[Jan001]

The Prophets do identify Jerusalem as a harlot at times of particular compromise and apostasy. But she is not identified as THE Harlot for all time, as if that is her eternal label.

It seems to me that Jerusalem was the great city, the harlot of Babylon, in the Book of Revelation.

Revelation 17:15 And he said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages.

Acts 2:5 Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven living in Jerusalem.

Acts 2:8 And how is it that we hear, each of us, in our own native language?


As seen from Joppa:

Revelation 18:18-20 And all shipmasters and seafarers, sailors and all whose trade is on the sea, stood far off 18 and cried out as they saw the smoke of her burning,

“What city was like the great city?”
19 And they threw dust on their heads, as they wept and mourned, crying out,

“Alas, alas, the great city,
where all who had ships at sea
grew rich by her wealth!
For in one hour she has been laid waste.”
20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, you saints and apostles and prophets! For God has given judgment for you against her.

Matthew 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gatheryour children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

Revelation 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that is prophetically called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.


Luke 13:33 Yet today, tomorrow, and the next day I must be on my way, because it is impossible for a prophet to be killed outside of Jerusalem.’

Yes, the NT was written to 1st century Christians, but succeeding generations felt the material was inspired to apply to all generations. I do believe that the "desolation" spoken of in Dan 9, which was to follow the 70th Week, involved the invasion of Jerusalem by the Roman armies.

But I think Revelation was written after that event and refers to the Harlot Rome, who Daniel saw as the 4th Beast continuing until the end of the age and the inception of God's Kingdom. Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, and has not continued in her role as "harlot." She had ceased to exist as the capital of Israel, and only in modern times as emerged as the new capital of modern Israel. So I don't believe Jerusalem is the Harlot of Rev 17.

The great city in the Book of Revelation was identified as the city where our Lord was crucified. The great city, Jerusalem, was the city which killed all the prophets.

On the other hand, Rome began as a city hostile to believers, but could not really be viewed as a harlot until she had become Christian. After that, she can turn to apostasy and become, like Israel, a harlot and an apostate. That has gradually been happening, considering some of the things corrupt popes have done, and lately with the current Pope who is tolerant of wayward Catholics and wayward Catholic lifestyles.

I agree with you about corrupt popes and about Pope Francis. I pray that he will soon have his own personal "Road to Damascus" encounter with our Lord. Judas, one of the twelve apostles, betrayed Jesus. Unfortunately, there will always be betrayers in Jesus' church.

I think all of the emperors were thought to be gods initially?

Titus was not the immediate successor to Nero. I believe Vespasian came in between them. But yes, Titus was ultimately a successor.

Could be.
Vespasian was Titus' father. Titus was worshiped as a god when he was the head of Rome's armies in Jerusalem.

I do believe that the 70 AD event was the fulfillment of Dan 9.26-27, and that the Abomination of Desolation was the Roman Army desolating Jerusalem and the Temple at that time. ......


In my view, the "Great Tribulation" was not merely the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, but also the entire NT Jewish Diaspora, which issued out of that event. Otherwise, it would not have been the "greatest catastrophe ever in the history of Israel."

Matt 24.21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

I agree with these statements.

Thank you for your thoughts. It seems there is much that we can agree on?

Yes.

 

[RandyPNW]

It seems to me that Jerusalem was the great city, the harlot of Babylon, in the Book of Revelation
As seen from Joppa:

Revelation 18:18-20 And all shipmasters and seafarers, sailors and all whose trade is on the sea, stood far off 18 and cried out as they saw the smoke of her burning,

Yea, neither Rome nor Jerusalem is a coastal city. To see such cities burning may indicate that the burning may extend a much greater distance. Or, it may even suggest that a nuclear bomb is used, which can be seen from a great distance.

I happen to think that Jerusalem will not be destroyed by fire, whereas apparently this city is.

Rev 17.16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, you saints and apostles and prophets! For God has given judgment for you against her.

Matthew 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gatheryour children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

Revelation 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that is prophetically called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.


Luke 13:33 Yet today, tomorrow, and the next day I must be on my way, because it is impossible for a prophet to be killed outside of Jerusalem.’

This was speaking to OT Israel, who at that time had a monopoly on prophets. It is different in NT times, where prophets came to inhabit mostly-Gentile churches.

The great city in the Book of Revelation was identified as the city where our Lord was crucified. The great city, Jerusalem, was the city which killed all the prophets.

This could very well refer to Jerusalem as a 2nd "great city" besides Babylon. Or it could indicate that Jesus dying in Jerusalem was dying under the governorship of Rome, and as such Jerusalem stood in for Rome. But this one I'm less clear about.

I know you don't agree, and that's alright. But I think that Jerusalem and Israel were the 1st Harlot, preparing the way for Rome and Europe the 2nd Harlot. After all, God had only begun with Israel, eventually extending His People to include European Civilization and beyond.

But these are great questions. The value I derive from seeing the city as Rome is that I'm made cautious of what is coming out of formerly-Christian Europe. The danger in focusing on the city as Jerusalem is that it can make us as Antisemitic as the world has been thus far.

I don't want to be either anti-Europe or anti-Israel. But both Humanism and Judaism are opposed to Christianity, and we have to be aware. But this awareness can prepare us to either reach them in their own language, and warn us to steer clear to avoid getting infected with their sins.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That's from Revelation 18 and the fall of Babylon the great.
Ok so far we have a city that believes her husband is a King and that this King is alive and well , and that she is somehow blessed because of her affilliation to him.

So who is this King..?

Harlots usually get by without husbands, and I think that's the point: She a Queen without need of a King.

 

[soldier of light]

Come out of the world and be separate says God

 

[Jan001]

Yea, neither Rome nor Jerusalem is a coastal city. To see such cities burning may indicate that the burning may extend a much greater distance. Or, it may even suggest that a nuclear bomb is used, which can be seen from a great distance.

I happen to think that Jerusalem will not be destroyed by fire, whereas apparently this city is.

Rev 17.16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

According to Josephus, both the temple and the city were burned by fires. The ash was even one meter deep in some places.

But these are great questions. The value I derive from seeing the city as Rome is that I'm made cautious of what is coming out of formerly-Christian Europe. The danger in focusing on the city as Jerusalem is that it can make us as Antisemitic as the world has been thus far.

The insatiable "w-hor-ing" of Israel and Jerusalem is well-documented. Unfortunately, this form will not permit me to link to the search page on Biblegateway.com. I used the NRSVCE.


John prophesied what was to "soon" take place. He was told to not seal up the prophecy because it would soon be fulfilled.

I don't think that more than 2000 years later, we should still be waiting for its fulfillment. It is no longer "soon."

Daniel's prophecy was sealed until the time of the end (of the temple). Within about 600 years, his sealed prophecy was unsealed by Jesus' own prophecy. Daniel's prophecy was actually fulfilled in the first century AD.

Jesus prophesied Jerusalem and its temple's destruction to be within his apostles' generation.

Matthew 24:2 Then he asked them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly I tell you, not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down.”


Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Luke 21:20-24 When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those inside the city must leave it, and those out in the country must not enter it; 22 for these are days of vengeance, as a fulfillment of all that is written. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress on the earth and wrath against this people; 24 they will fall by the edge of the sword and be taken away as captives among all nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Unfortunately, there will always be antisemitic people. Unfortunately, there will always be antichristian people.

I don't want to be either anti-Europe or anti-Israel. But both Humanism and Judaism are opposed to Christianity, and we have to be aware. But this awareness can prepare us to either reach them in their own language, and warn us to steer clear to avoid getting infected with their sins.

I agree that we have to be aware of the enemies of our Christian faith. It seems that a remnant of Jews will still come into Christ's church before Jesus' second coming. Romans 11:5

I have enjoyed our chat, as usual. Thank you.

 

[RandyPNW]

Harlots usually get by without husbands, and I think that's the point: She a Queen without need of a King.

Yes, I would think so.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

The temple in Jerusalem was still standing when the Book of Revelation was written. It seems to me that John was on Patmos near the end of the great tribulation, which was prophesied by Jesus Christ for their own generation. (Matthew 24:34) John wrote this book there on Patmos and said the time of its fulfillment was near. He was told to not seal it up for a later time, as was Daniel's book. Revelation 22:10, Daniel 12:4

The book of revelation was written in year 95, years after the destruction of the temple.



All the external evidence points to the writing of Revelation by John when he was banished to the Isle of Patmos during the reign of Roman emperor Domitian (91-96 AD), for, as he said, “the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.”



Evidence has been found that Patmos and surrounding islands were indeed used to incarcerate prisoners or the so called “enemies of the state” at that period of history.



That would make the writing of Revelation in and around the traditionally accepted date of 95 AD, near the very end of John’s life.



Writing in the second century, Irenaeus declared that Revelation had been written toward the end of Domitian's reign.



Later writers, such as Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Victorinus (who wrote one of the earliest commentaries on Revelation), Eusebius, and Jerome affirm the Domitian date.



The Spiritual decline of the 7 churches (chapters 2 and 3), also argues for the later date.



Those churches were strong and spiritually healthy in the mid-60s, when Paul last ministered in Asia Minor.



The brief time between Paul's ministry there and the end of Nero's reign was too short for such a decline to have occurred.



The longer time gap also explains the rise of the heretical sect known as the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15), who are not mentioned in Paul's letters, not even to one or more of these same churches (Ephesians).



Finally, dating Revelation during Nero's reign does not allow time for John's ministry in Asia Minor to reach the point at which the authorities would have felt the need to exile him.



None of the disasters from bool of revelation has not happened yet. What happened in year 70 eas tragic, but that is small in comparisson to the great tribulation as written in the book of revelation.



Satan is yet not bound in chains as in Rev 20.



In regard to Matthew 24, most of it has not been fulfilled yet.

15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)

The Bible wasn't written during Roman Emprie's attack on Jerusalem in 63-70, so how could a reader understand?

 

[RandyPNW]

The book of revelation was written in year 95, years after the destruction of the temple.



All the external evidence points to the writing of Revelation by John when he was banished to the Isle of Patmos during the reign of Roman emperor Domitian (91-96 AD), for, as he said, “the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.”



Evidence has been found that Patmos and surrounding islands were indeed used to incarcerate prisoners or the so called “enemies of the state” at that period of history.



That would make the writing of Revelation in and around the traditionally accepted date of 95 AD, near the very end of John’s life.



Writing in the second century, Irenaeus declared that Revelation had been written toward the end of Domitian's reign.



Later writers, such as Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Victorinus (who wrote one of the earliest commentaries on Revelation), Eusebius, and Jerome affirm the Domitian date.



The Spiritual decline of the 7 churches (chapters 2 and 3), also argues for the later date.



Those churches were strong and spiritually healthy in the mid-60s, when Paul last ministered in Asia Minor.



The brief time between Paul's ministry there and the end of Nero's reign was too short for such a decline to have occurred.



The longer time gap also explains the rise of the heretical sect known as the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15), who are not mentioned in Paul's letters, not even to one or more of these same churches (Ephesians).



Finally, dating Revelation during Nero's reign does not allow time for John's ministry in Asia Minor to reach the point at which the authorities would have felt the need to exile him.



None of the disasters from bool of revelation has not happened yet. What happened in year 70 eas tragic, but that is small in comparisson to the great tribulation as written in the book of revelation.



Satan is yet not bound in chains as in Rev 20.



In regard to Matthew 24, most of it has not been fulfilled yet.

15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)

The Bible wasn't written during Roman Emprie's attack on Jerusalem in 63-70, so how could a reader understand?

You had me all the way up until this last point. I agree with the late date of John's Revelation. But I cannot agree that the so-called "Great Tribulation" is a period of 7 years in the last days. On the contrary, Dan 12 and the Olivet Discourse place the Great Tribulation at the fall of Jerusalem in Messiah's time, which brought about the Jewish Diaspora, lasting for the entire NT period. That is, in my opinion, what makes the Tribulation "great" and the worst Israel has seen or ever will see.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

In my view, the above passage could only have been referring to the NT Jewish Diaspora, beginning with the 70 AD event of Jerusalem's Fall and the destruction of the Temple.

This view is not popular with Futurists or with Dispensationalists because they want to use the Olivet Discourse as a crystal ball for interpreting contemporary events. But the O.D was, in fact, an indictment of then-current Israel, in Jesus' day, with the prediction, based on Dan 9, that Jerusalem would fall imminently along with a complete destruction of the Temple.

All of the warning signs Jesus gave in the Olivet Discourse were signs Jesus' Disciples could see in their own time, anticipating the coming of judgment to Israel via the Romans. They would come with their eagle standards, lay siege to Jerusalem, and ultimately defeat Israel. Like many OT prophecies of judgment against apostate Israel, this was the same, but also the worst, because their sin had been against their own Messiah.

As such, this was a Jewish judgment, although Salvation has continued to take place among a remnant. And what was given to Israel applies equally to all nations who have received the Gospel. When they turn from the Lord they also will be judged, just as Israel was.

 

[RandyPNW]

According to Josephus, both the temple and the city were burned by fires. The ash was even one meter deep in some places.

Oh, of course you're right! I meant to say that in prophecy we hear that it will never happen again. The Jewish Diaspora aka the Great Tribulation will be the last Jewish Punishment, and will in fact end with a measure of destruction in Israel.

But it will not result in annihilation. On the contrary, it will lead to Israel's ultimate and final restoration as a nation, in my opinion.

Rome, on the other hand, is not promised to be an "eternal city." It may very well suffer annihilation in the endtimes, being "burned with fire." I don't believe the Antichrist would be interested in burning Jerusalem with fire, since he would prefer to take symbolic control of it. But he might be interested in destroying Rome, a major Christian threat to his authority. I don't claim to know any of this for certain.

The insatiable "w-hor-ing" or Har-lot-ting of Israel and Jerusalem is well-documented. Unfortunately, this form will not permit me to link to the search page on Biblegateway.com.

The description of Israel as a harlot is well known, from Jer 3. However, the "city that rules the world" (Rev 17.18) is more likely to describe Rome than Jerusalem, in the political sense.

John prophesied what was to "soon" take place. He was told to not seal up the prophecy because it would soon be fulfilled.

I don't think that more than 2000 years later, we should still be waiting for its fulfillment. It is no longer "soon."

This reflects a misunderstanding, I think, of the word "soon." It refers to a more or less direct consequence of an action or behavior. When people misbehave, the punishment is coming "soon."

God sees the entire activity of God's people and the Gospel Mission as being the "action." The developing apostasy, which is always in process, is "soon" to be punished, which means that in a real sense punishment is always arriving for those in a state of sin and backsliding.

Jesus came the 1st time, and judgment immemdiately followed Israel's major sin of rejecting him as their Messiah. In 70 AD the religion went up in smoke, and the political power ceased to exist.

This was "soon." And it is no less "soon" that punishment arrives in each generation, as well as in the last generation. Punishment is always coming "soon."

So John was not just showing eschatological punishment, but much more, punishment that is going on throughout the age, leading up to final punishment. All that John wrote is "soon" to be realized, and it has already been in process of being realized throughout the age.

Some people, including a former pastor of mine, thought that God did not bring judgment upon the world in WW1 and WW2. In fact, God uses every war as a means of bringing chastisement upon the nations, as I see it. The modern world suffers the same as the OT Prophets had described it in the world of their day.

These are cases where judgment has not long been waiting, but came "soon" after nations had been irresposible with the gifts God had given them. Many of the nations involved in WW1 and WW2 had been Christian nations that had fallen into backsliding and apostasy. Punishment came "soon" just as the book of Revelation had been depicting.

One horseman showed war, and another showed peace being taken from the earth. Clearly, these things have already been occurring--indeed all through history.

Daniel's prophecy was sealed until the time of the end (of the temple). Within about 600 years, his sealed prophecy was unsealed by Jesus' own prophecy. Daniel's prophecy was actually fulfilled in the first century AD.

Well, in my view the "end" refers to the time after Messiah had come the 1st time. This is when eternal life had been provided for. And this is when men have their one and only opportunity to opt for it through Jesus.

Jesus prophesied Jerusalem and its temple's destruction to be within his apostles' generation.

Matthew 24:2 Then he asked them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly I tell you, not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down.”


Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Luke 21:20-24 When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those inside the city must leave it, and those out in the country must not enter it; 22 for these are days of vengeance, as a fulfillment of all that is written. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress on the earth and wrath against this people; 24 they will fall by the edge of the sword and be taken away as captives among all nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Yes. I totally agree that Jesus was speaking of 70 AD, but also of the continuing tribulation that the Jewish People would experience throughout the age.

Unfortunately, there will always be antisemitic people. Unfortunately, there will always be antichristian people.

I agree that we have to be aware of the enemies of our Christian faith. It seems that a remnant of Jews will still come into Christ's church before Jesus' second coming. Romans 11:5

I have enjoyed our chat, as usual. Thank you.

We do have a significant agreement, despite the disagreement on the peripheries. I've enjoyed it too--not the usual hostility if I'm not in 100% agreement.

 

[Jan001]

The book of revelation was written in year 95, years after the destruction of the temple.

There had to still be a temple in Jerusalem for John to measure as he was commanded to do.

All the external evidence points to the writing of Revelation by John when he was banished to the Isle of Patmos during the reign of Roman emperor Domitian (91-96 AD), for, as he said, “the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

John does not state that it was during the reign of Domitian. Scripture states that Christians were exiled while Peter was still alive. Peter was martyred about 66 AD.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Evidence has been found that Patmos and surrounding islands were indeed used to incarcerate prisoners or the so called “enemies of the state” at that period of history.

Exiles were not incarcerated.

That would make the writing of Revelation in and around the traditionally accepted date of 95 AD, near the very end of John’s life.
Writing in the second century, Irenaeus declared that Revelation had been written toward the end of Domitian's reign.
Later writers, such as Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Victorinus (who wrote one of the earliest commentaries on Revelation), Eusebius, and Jerome affirm the Domitian date.

Irenaeus was not living when John wrote the Book of Revelation. Later historians parroted Irenaeus' account.

The Spiritual decline of the 7 churches (chapters 2 and 3), also argues for the later date.

Those churches were strong and spiritually healthy in the mid-60s, when Paul last ministered in Asia Minor.

Perhaps God had a different view of them.

Acts 20:28-30 Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son. 29 I know that after I have gone, savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Some even from your own group will come distorting the truth in order to entice the disciples to follow them. (Nicolaus?)

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions. They will even deny the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Acts 6:5 What they said pleased the whole community, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, together with Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch.

Revelation 2:6 Yet this is to your credit: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Revelation 2:15 So you also have some who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.

The brief time between Paul's ministry there and the end of Nero's reign was too short for such a decline to have occurred.

The longer time gap also explains the rise of the heretical sect known as the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15), who are not mentioned in Paul's letters, not even to one or more of these same churches (Ephesians).

Word of mouth was the most common means for transmitting news.

Finally, dating Revelation during Nero's reign does not allow time for John's ministry in Asia Minor to reach the point at which the authorities would have felt the need to exile him.

John's ministry was well-known by the Jews and Roman officials.

None of the disasters from bool of revelation has not happened yet. What happened in year 70 eas tragic, but that is small in comparisson to the great tribulation as written in the book of revelation.

Jesus states that the greatest tribulation would occur within 40 years (this generation).

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be......34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. See Matthew 24:1-26.

 

[Jan001]

Satan is yet not bound in chains as in Rev 20.

Satan was bound by the power of Jesus' death on the cross in 33 AD. The first resurrection also occurred in 33 AD. Matthew 27:52-53
Jesus accompanied all the spirits in Abraham's bosom to heaven after He opened the gates of heaven, which had been barred by Adam's sin. Genesis 3:24

In regard to Matthew 24, most of it has not been fulfilled yet.

15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)

Jesus said the abomination of desolation would be the (Roman) armies building encampments surrounding Jerusalem. They did this in the first century AD.

Luke 21:20-21 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

Matthew 24:15-16 Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

The Bible wasn't written during Roman Emprie's attack on Jerusalem in 63-70, so how could a reader understand?

All of the New Testament was written before the deaths of Peter and Paul, even the Book of Hebrews.

How do we know this?

When the Book of Hebrews was written, the temple was still standing because there were still Jewish priests serving in the tabernacle (temple) in Jerusalem.

Hebrews 13:10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat.



The gospel had already been preached to the whole known world.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Romans 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

Romans 16:26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—

 

[Jan001]

Oh, of course you're right! I meant to say that in prophecy we hear that it will never happen again. The Jewish Diaspora aka the Great Tribulation will be the last Jewish Punishment, and will in fact end with a measure of destruction in Israel.

But it will not result in annihilation. On the contrary, it will lead to Israel's ultimate and final restoration as a nation, in my opinion.

Rome, on the other hand, is not promised to be an "eternal city." It may very well suffer annihilation in the endtimes, being "burned with fire." I don't believe the Antichrist would be interested in burning Jerusalem with fire, since he would prefer to take symbolic control of it. But he might be interested in destroying Rome, a major Christian threat to his authority. I don't claim to know any of this for certain.

The description of Israel as a harlot is well known, from Jer 3. However, the "city that rules the world" (Rev 17.18) is more likely to describe Rome than Jerusalem, in the political sense.

This reflects a misunderstanding, I think, of the word "soon." It refers to a more or less direct consequence of an action or behavior. When people misbehave, the punishment is coming "soon."

God sees the entire activity of God's people and the Gospel Mission as being the "action." The developing apostasy, which is always in process, is "soon" to be punished, which means that in a real sense punishment is always arriving for those in a state of sin and backsliding.

Jesus came the 1st time, and judgment immemdiately followed Israel's major sin of rejecting him as their Messiah. In 70 AD the religion went up in smoke, and the political power ceased to exist.

This was "soon." And it is no less "soon" that punishment arrives in each generation, as well as in the last generation. Punishment is always coming "soon."

So John was not just showing eschatological punishment, but much more, punishment that is going on throughout the age, leading up to final punishment. All that John wrote is "soon" to be realized, and it has already been in process of being realized throughout the age.

Some people, including a former pastor of mine, thought that God did not bring judgment upon the world in WW1 and WW2. In fact, God uses every war as a means of bringing chastisement upon the nations, as I see it. The modern world suffers the same as the OT Prophets had described it in the world of their day.

These are cases where judgment has not long been waiting, but came "soon" after nations had been irresposible with the gifts God had given them. Many of the nations involved in WW1 and WW2 had been Christian nations that had fallen into backsliding and apostasy. Punishment came "soon" just as the book of Revelation had been depicting.

One horseman showed war, and another showed peace being taken from the earth. Clearly, these things have already been occurring--indeed all through history.

Well, in my view the "end" refers to the time after Messiah had come the 1st time. This is when eternal life had been provided for. And this is when men have their one and only opportunity to opt for it through Jesus.


Yes. I totally agree that Jesus was speaking of 70 AD, but also of the continuing tribulation that the Jewish People would experience throughout the age.

We do have a significant agreement, despite the disagreement on the peripheries. I've enjoyed it too--not the usual hostility if I'm not in 100% agreement.

It is good to hear other people's opinions. We become more informed when we do. I know I have changed my mind about some of my own interpretations.