Shattering the Christ Myth

[Eudaimonist]

If someone would have raised this topic ten years ago, I might have argued the mythicist side just for fun (I never did think that they had proved their case any more than the historical Jesus camp had), but I am beyond caring at this point. To me, the question of whether or not there was an historical Jesus is as interesting as the question of whether or not there was an historical King Arthur, which is to say not enough to inspire me to debate the issue.

Good luck in finding people to debate this issue with, hamashiachagape. I doubt that you will find them here.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[hisgrace26]

Hey guys, I did a quick search for this Horus figure and found out that Acharya S was the author behind it. Has anybody confirmed and familiar with her work? Here is an article that I think where she draws these textual evidence from. It is believed the these textual evidence were from the "Pyramid Texts"and "Book of the dead."https://sites.google.com/site/relig...connection/horus-raising-osiris-from-the-dead

Are they reliable? Any idea?

Take for example, the claim that Horus was virgin born. What's the fuss about Isis married to Osiris and having sexual relationship? According to the story Horus was miraculous conceived but the question is; is he virgin born?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Take for example, the claim that Horus was virgin born. What's the fuss about Isis married to Osiris and having sexual relationship? According to the story Horus was miraculous conceived but the question is; is he virgin born?

I've said it before, but it bears repeating:

Comparing Christianity to the mystery religions and their dying-and-rising gods is a worthwhile endeavour - but not if you look for xerox copies (or are ready to forge material in a weird parallel to pious fraud).

So no, Krishna was not crucified, Horus was not virgin born and Dionysus was not accompanied by twelve male disciples. The similarities between the mystery religions and early Christianity are not to be found in the minutiae of their respective mythology, but on a grander, more general scale:

The very concept of mysterion; initiation rituals after which new devotees were considered born again, purified by association with the dying-and-rising deity; ritual meals where initiates would partake from the substance of the dying-and-rising deity; deities dying and/or descending into the underworld, only to return triumphant and restore cosmic order by means of their sacrifice.

 

[hisgrace26]

Isis had sex with Osiris that's how Horus was born. They didn't have physical sex you do know that right? In any case that makes Horus birth a miraculous.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Isis had sex with Osiris that's how Horus was born. They didn't have physical sex you do know that right? In any case that makes Horus birth a miraculous.

On the other hand we are already talking about Deities. So, I don't know how the birth could be anything but miraculous (or something about those lines).

 

[hisgrace26]

Ok here is my opinion. It may need further correction and critique from others. According to the mythology, Isis and Osiris were both married already. We cannot assume they did not have sex after marriage. So I'm curious how Horus is consider virgin born? However, Horus was miraculous conceived per the story. That doesn't make him virgin born I suppose.

 

[Eudaimonist]

According to the mythology, Isis and Osiris were both married already. We cannot assume they did not have sex after marriage. So I'm curious how Horus is consider virgin born? However, Horus was miraculous conceived per the story. That doesn't make him virgin born I suppose.

Osiris myth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It may depend on which version of the story you mean. The details vary.

He is probably not virgin born in the sense we would use the word today, but rather born without the involvement of Osiris's genitals. Those genitals were lost in a river and eaten by a fish. Isis had to reconstruct her husband's genitals using magic in order to impregnate herself. And that's just one version of the story.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[hisgrace26]

Osiris myth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It may depend on which version of the story you mean. The details vary.

He is probably not virgin born in the sense we would use the word today, but rather born without the involvement of Osiris's genitals. Those genitals were lost in a river and eaten by a fish. Isis had to reconstruct her husband's genitals using magic in order to impregnate herself. And that's just one version of the story.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Hmmm.. I'm not sure about that. Isn't that still intercourse? That's not virgin birth is it?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Hmmm.. I'm not sure about that. Isn't that still intercourse?

Is masturbating with a magic [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] intercourse?

That's not virgin birth is it?

I'd call it that, if "virgin birth" includes magical insemination.

The details on Mary's insemination by God are left vague, but how is that different? That's magic too.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[simplegifts]

Why?

Why is God apparently excempt from having to prove himself?

... Because you say so? Not a valid argument.

I am one of the lucky ones, God has proven himself to me through a couple of close encounters with him.

Maybe he has trid to prove himself to you but you weren't listening.

 

[CherubRam]

 

[Rationalt]

I am one of the lucky ones, God has proven himself to me through a couple of close encounters with him.

Maybe he has trid to prove himself to you but you weren't listening.

El or Yahweh ?. The father who wants his son to cater to the poor and the widows or The one who guided Abraham ?.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I am one of the lucky ones, God has proven himself to me through a couple of close encounters with him.

Proven himself in what ways?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[LoAmmi]

El or Yahweh ?. The father who wants his son to cater to the poor and the widows or The one who guided Abraham ?.

The one who guided Abraham said for everybody take care of the poor and the widows.

 

[grace24]

bump

 

[hisgrace26]

Is masturbating with a magic [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] intercourse?



I'd call it that, if "virgin birth" includes magical insemination.

The details on Mary's insemination by God are left vague, but how is that different? That's magic too.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Miraculous but not virgin.

 

[Zoness]

I am one of the lucky ones, God has proven himself to me through a couple of close encounters with him.

Maybe he has trid to prove himself to you but you weren't listening.

This doesn't amount to any sort of argument.

 

[Illuminaughty]

Some of the stories, events, symbols, etc.. in the Bible do have close resemblances to the myths of the so called "pagan" religions. Even early Christians admitted this and brought in the idea of demonic mimicry. Apparently the devil knew ahead of time what Jesus was going to do so he tricked his cultists into making up similar myths I guess. This movie exaggerates and plays fast and loose with the evidence though to make a better case.

I think Tim Callahan of Skeptic magazine was spot on in his appraisal of the part of the movie on Christianity:

"some of what it asserts is true. Unfortunately, this material is liberally – and sloppily – mixed with material that is only partially true and much that is plainly and simply bogus."


http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-02-25/#feature

The tinfoil hat 9/11 stuff in it doesn't even deserve a response.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Miraculous but not virgin.

Per Webster, yes. If one wants to be very technical. I agree with you on that point.

However, I'm not certain that there is much of a difference mythologically. The two "magical birth" stories seem to fit neatly into the same meaning. A Divine Power uses magic (avoiding nature and any hint of moral taint) to conceive a child with an origin unlike any other child.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

Anyway, speaking of Christ Myth theories, the following link has one of the very few that I respect.

I'm not in any way a Bible expert, so I don't claim to have the background to evaluate the quality of the argument as compared to the full context of evidence. All I can say is that it is a very interesting theory, and it avoids many of the significant problems that plague the "pagan-influence" theories. In this case, the Jesus myth is thoroughly Jewish in inspiration. The basic concept is this:

Like many other religious figures, "Jesus Christ" began as a theological concept, was later used as a character in allegorical stories, and was then historicized as someone whom people believed really existed. The belief in a literal "human" Jesus most likely emerged as eucharist rituals and theology developed around the concept of the "flesh" and "blood" of Christ and these concepts merged with allegorical narratives about the figure.

Jesus Myth - The Case Against Historical Christ


eudaimonia,

Mark