Shannon Doherty, battling cancer, isn't afraid of death because she is a "good person".

[Tropical Wilds]

Well, that wasn't the statement I was talking about, but I think the more important thing to address here is why you automatically assume asking a dying person if they've put their full faith in Jesus is confrontational? Sharing the Gospel doesn't mean kicking the door in and beating her with the Bible while screaming about the horrors of eternal hellfire. With that being said, tell me what's wrong with a conversation that may go something like this:

"Shannon, I know you've done a lot of good things for people in your life and that you really care about others. I applaud you for your compassion and efforts to help those less fortunate than yourself, but there's one thing you've said recently that has caused me some concern. I just want to make sure that you've placed your full faith in Jesus Christ alone before you leave this world and not those good works you've done, because the Bible clearly states that the best we can possibly do is filthy rags before God. I know you're going through something that I can't even begin to imagine right now and I'm not trying to get preachy with you. I just couldn't possibly say I care for you without, at the very least, ensuring that you know salvation comes from Jesus Christ alone. I'm going to pray that you have peace not only in this life, but the one to come as well."

Because that’s a selfish conversation to inflict on a dying person. It’s about making you feel better about their faith and your ability to get people to profess, for your judgment, if their religious stances are “correct.” They don’t owe you an explanation of their faith and you have no right to demand it under the guise of “being concerned.”

She’s a stranger, she made a passing comment during an interview about death, not theology. You are not God, her religious leader, anybody in her spiritual circle. You extrapolated a meaning out of a comment based off of your assumption, judged her for it, and then want her to fix it to your satisfaction. That’s a you problem, not a her problem. She doesn’t owe you an explanation for your assumption, you owe her one for making an assumption, a judgment, then expecting her to be accountable for it.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

And in the

You do realize, don't you, that cancer and its various forms of treatment, like many diseases and their possible treatments, can affect a person's brain chemistry, right?

Let's just be compassionate and give Shannen the benefit of the doubt. She doesn't merely "have" cancer. She is battling it. And my guess is she's having a difficult time as it is just remaining lucid and coherent in her thoughts from the stress she's under, led alone from the cancer's affects and those of any treatments she's receiving. She doesn't need judgment from those of us on the sidelines or the peanut gallery simply because she's not instantly rattling off the "most correct theological articulation" that one might be able to give about the Bible and the Christian faith, especially during a time of her own extreme medical duress.

Especially given the context of the conversation… A fluff piece for a tabloid magazine.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I would argue that being wrong about your theology on Jesus isn't the same as being wrong on what you believe about the dinosaurs, Nephilim, how many days it to for creation, etc. The wrong theology on Jesus and salvation could be a death sentence.

This gets us to some real nitty gritty stuff about soteriology.

I'm a Lutheran, as such I affirm an uncompromising belief in the doctrine of Justification by grace alone, through faith alone, on Christ's account alone.

That means that faith in Christ is a gift, it's grace. For in Ephesians 2:8-9 we read that we are saved by grace, through faith, and this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God, not of our works. Faith is God's gift, not our work so none may boast. Were faith our work, then we could take credit for it and we would therefore be boasting.

So it is entirely monergistic: God's work alone.

God comes down. How does God come down? Through His Means of Grace (Word and Sacrament), for His word actually creates faith (Romans 10:17). Thus faith comes from God alone, God gives faith.

Thus God Himself gives, creates, strengthens, and works faith in us. For this reason we say that faith is extra nos. From outside ourselves. Faith isn't my work, faith is God's work; I believe because God mercifully has adopted me as His child in Christ, and I have the Holy Spirit in me and He grants me confidence in God's promises.

That's Sola Gratia, Grace Alone.

This faith which God gives is what then passively receives everything God gives, namely I receive the very righteousness of Jesus Christ. It is Christ who is righteous, His righteous life, His atoning death, His resurrection. These are mine, as a gift, received entirely through faith. Therefore I stand, and am declared righteous, for Christ's sake.

Not my righteousness, but Christ's. That is how I am reckoned just before the Father. "In [the Gospel] the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, just as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith'" (Romans 1:17), that justice by which I am declared just for Christ's sake, through faith.

This is the righteousness that is by faith, rather than that righteousness by works of the Law--for what the Law could not do, God has done by sending forth His Son, to be the atonement of all our sins.

Thus I receive from God, by faith alone, what God freely gives and accomplishes by His grace alone.

That's Sola Fide, Faith Alone.

And all of this is because of Christ alone: Christ alone has lived a righteous life, Christ alone died for the sins of the world, Christ alone has risen from the dead defeating death and granting us life everlasting and the hope of resurrection. Thus by the work of Christ alone, on His account alone, am I justified.

For what Christ alone has done, God by His grace alone gives, and faith alone receives it.

That's Solus Christus, Christ Alone.

We are not justified by our having the right theology. We are justified by Christ alone who lived, died, and rose again. His once-and-for-all perfect, finished, completed work alone. Christ alone is our righteousness. Christ alone is our salvation. Christ alone is our hope.

It is not based on how well we use our faith--to believe the right things, or to do the right things--that saves us. It is Christ alone who saves us by His life, death, and resurrection; received as pure gift by God's grace, passively through faith. So that the one who trusts in the Lord shall never be put to shame. None who hope in Jesus will be put to shame.

Even when we get our big theology wrong. Jesus is still Savior.

Bad theology can cause a shipwrecking of faith--which is why it is dangerous. But merely having wrong beliefs does not make God impotent to save us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jermayn]

This gets us to some real nitty gritty stuff about soteriology.

I'm a Lutheran, as such I affirm an uncompromising belief in the doctrine of Justification by grace alone, through faith alone, on Christ's account alone.

That means that faith in Christ is a gift, it's grace. For in Ephesians 2:8-9 we read that we are saved by grace, through faith, and this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God, not of our works. Faith is God's gift, not our work so none may boast. Were faith our work, then we could take credit for it and we would therefore be boasting.

So it is entirely monergistic: God's work alone.

God comes down. How does God come down? Through His Means of Grace (Word and Sacrament), for His word actually creates faith (Romans 10:17). Thus faith comes from God alone, God gives faith.

Thus God Himself gives, creates, strengthens, and works faith in us. For this reason we say that faith is extra nos. From outside ourselves. Faith isn't my work, faith is God's work; I believe because God mercifully has adopted me as His child in Christ, and I have the Holy Spirit in me and He grants me confidence in God's promises.

That's Sola Gratia, Grace Alone.

This faith which God gives is what then passively receives everything God gives, namely I receive the very righteousness of Jesus Christ. It is Christ who is righteous, His righteous life, His atoning death, His resurrection. These are mine, as a gift, received entirely through faith. Therefore I stand, and am declared righteous, for Christ's sake.

Not my righteousness, but Christ's. That is how I am reckoned just before the Father. "In [the Gospel] the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, just as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith'" (Romans 1:17), that justice by which I am declared just for Christ's sake, through faith.

This is the righteousness that is by faith, rather than that righteousness by works of the Law--for what the Law could not do, God has done by sending forth His Son, to be the atonement of all our sins.

Thus I receive from God, by faith alone, what God freely gives and accomplishes by His grace alone.

That's Sola Fide, Faith Alone.

And all of this is because of Christ alone: Christ alone has lived a righteous life, Christ alone died for the sins of the world, Christ alone has risen from the dead defeating death and granting us life everlasting and the hope of resurrection. Thus by the work of Christ alone, on His account alone, am I justified.

For what Christ alone has done, God by His grace alone gives, and faith alone receives it.

That's Solus Christus, Christ Alone.

We are not justified by our having the right theology. We are justified by Christ alone who lived, died, and rose again. His once-and-for-all perfect, finished, completed work alone. Christ alone is our righteousness. Christ alone is our salvation. Christ alone is our hope.

It is not based on how well we use our faith--to believe the right things, or to do the right things--that saves us. It is Christ alone who saves us by His life, death, and resurrection; received as pure gift by God's grace, passively through faith. So that the one who trusts in the Lord shall never be put to shame. None who hope in Jesus will be put to shame.

Even when we get our big theology wrong. Jesus is still Savior.

Bad theology can cause a shipwrecking of faith--which is why it is dangerous. But merely having wrong beliefs does not make God impotent to save us.

-CryptoLutheran

While I mostly agree with what you've stated, I was argue that your theology, which is just a fancy way of saying what you believe, about Jesus is vital to salvation. Mormons believe Jesus is Satan's spirit brother and just a guy trying to attain godhood like the rest of us. Wrong Jesus. Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is the Arch-Angel Michael. Wrong Jesus. There's a guy in Russia that says he's Jesus and has a pretty large following. Wrong Jesus. God isn't going to be like "Well, I guess you technically believed in Jesus, so come on in". Not going to happen. If that were the case, the real Jesus wouldn't have warned us not to follow false Christs (Matthew 24:23-24) and doctrines of demons (1 Timothy 4:1).

To say bad theology about Jesus doesn't matter, in my opinion, is to say that everyone will be saved regardless of what they believe. I'm not accusing you of meaning it that way, but that's how it comes across to me.

 

[Jermayn]

Because that’s a selfish conversation to inflict on a dying person. It’s about making you feel better about their faith and your ability to get people to profess, for your judgment, if their religious stances are “correct.” They don’t owe you an explanation of their faith and you have no right to demand it under the guise of “being concerned.”

She’s a stranger, she made a passing comment during an interview about death, not theology. You are not God, her religious leader, anybody in her spiritual circle. You extrapolated a meaning out of a comment based off of your assumption, judged her for it, and then want her to fix it to your satisfaction. That’s a you problem, not a her problem. She doesn’t owe you an explanation for your assumption, you owe her one for making an assumption, a judgment, then expecting her to be accountable for it.

Why are you so offended that someone would want to share the Gospel with a dying person? If you really believe that "being a good person" will save you, and you are telling that to others, then you are perpetuating a complete lie and you need to reevaluate your relationship with Christ. What does the Bible say about causing people to stumble?

Luke 17:1-2 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble

Some things you've stated that I will say are true:

1. YES, I would feel much better about others faith if they had, or at the very least, knew of the correct religious stance. Why? First, because there is a correct religious stance...and I care about people being separated from God for eternity. So selfish and hateful, right?

2. No one owes me an explanation of anything. You are correct. You've judged me as expressing fake concern. You're entitled to your opinion. Really nothing I can do about that.

3. I'm not God, her religious leader, or in her spiritual circle. Show me where the Bible says I'm not allowed to share the Gospel with her or ask for prayer that she knows the Gospel before she dies?

Some things you've stated that are false:

1. Ahhh, the ol' "you're judging me". The world's favorite line when they've run out of arguments with any substance. Stating what the Bible, God's Word, says isn't passing judgement on you or anyone else. You do believe the Bible is God's Word, right?

2. Saying you're going to Heaven or whatever afterlife you believe in because you're a good person is very much a theological statement.

3. What she, you, or anyone else dies believing is not a me problem, unless I deceived any of you into believing a lie.

 

[Jermayn]

You do realize, don't you, that cancer and its various forms of treatment, like many diseases and their possible treatments, can affect a person's brain chemistry, right?

Let's just be compassionate and give Shannen the benefit of the doubt. She doesn't merely "have" cancer. She is battling it. And my guess is she's having a difficult time as it is just remaining lucid and coherent in her thoughts from the stress she's under, led alone from the cancer's affects and those of any treatments she's receiving. She doesn't need judgment from those of us on the sidelines or the peanut gallery simply because she's not instantly rattling off the "most correct theological articulation" that one might be able to give about the Bible and the Christian faith, especially during a time of her own extreme medical duress.

I've known and cared for several people who have had, and passed away from, cancer.

This was one of the captions in the article: "Shannen Doherty looks spirited and happy in recent photos she shared to social media."

She was apparently coherent enough to give an interview to Fox News or whoever did the interview. It's pretty obvious she hasn't lost her mind due to the disease or treatments.

I beg to differ. A dying person who has put their faith in their good works needs to hear the Gospel more than anything else.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Why are you so offended that someone would want to share the Gospel with a dying person? If you really believe that "being a good person" will save you, and you are telling that to others, then you are perpetuating a complete lie and you need to reevaluate your relationship with Christ. What does the Bible say about causing people to stumble?

Who said I was offended or that I’m telling people that being a good person is all it takes to get to heaven?

Luke 17:1-2 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble

Super. That has nothing to do with this.

Some things you've stated that I will say are true:

1. YES, I would feel much better about others faith if they had, or at the very least, knew of the correct religious stance. Why? First, because there is a correct religious stance...and I care about people being separated from God for eternity. So selfish and hateful, right?

Yes, super selfish actually.

2. No one owes me an explanation of anything. You are correct. You've judged me as expressing fake concern. You're entitled to your opinion. Really nothing I can do about that.

Thanks for the permission. And if she owes you no explanation, confronting her to tell her she needs to confirm her faith to you would be inappropriate.

3. I'm not God, her religious leader, or in her spiritual circle. Show me where the Bible says I'm not allowed to share the Gospel with her or ask for prayer that she knows the Gospel before she dies?

Turning the imminent death of a stranger into an interaction where you want them to explain their passing comment to your satisfaction is not “sharing the gospel.” Having her say she’s a good person and she feels comfortable with what happens after death and you replying “uh oh, you’re misguided and going to hell” is not “sharing the gospel.”

Some things you've stated that are false:

1. Ahhh, the ol' "you're judging me". The world's favorite line when they've run out of arguments with any substance. Stating what the Bible, God's Word, says isn't passing judgement on you or anyone else. You do believe the Bible is God's Word, right?

Really? Because the Bible has a lot to say about judging your neighbor, removing planks from your eyes before removing the specks from others, and believers left gnashing their teeth outside of the gates of heaven while those they wrongly judged to be unworthy enter into heaven, and God’s general dissatisfaction at people who use his name to pass judgment when that’s not an authority he granted them. You do believe the Bible is God’s word, right?

2. Saying you're going to Heaven or whatever afterlife you believe in because you're a good person is very much a theological statement.

In this context, no, it’s not. She made a passing comment that grazed over how she’s processing her death. You judged her for not, found her wanting, and now we are on page 3 of why you think it’s totally ok to browbeat a stranger for your assumption on her faith based on an innocuous answer to a general question related to her death.

3. What she, you, or anyone else dies believing is not a me problem, unless I deceived any of you into believing a lie.

So then if it’s not a you problem, stop reading into that she said, don’t assume that her saying she’s a good person means she doesn’t believe in Jesus, and stop putting her spirituality down to lift you up. About 3 pages ago this stopped being about her faith and started being a platform for you to virtue signal about how right you are, how much you know, and making sure she, me, and others on here know that you are the Sneech with the star on your belly and all of us are found to be wanting for the lack of stars in ours. You’ve called out my faith, her faith, others faith for not measuring up to you and it’s not virtuous. It’s prideful, boastful, not Biblical, and, frankly, obnoxious.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

She was apparently coherent enough to give an interview to Fox News or whoever did the interview. It's pretty obvious she hasn't lost her mind due to the disease or treatments.

Information you obviously have because you care for her on an intimate, daily basis, I’m sure.

Because I know when I cared with my family member with cancer, they had great days where everything seemed great and normal. But then the bad days came. They couldn’t remember how to fed themselves, their family members names, or think coherently past the pain. And then they’d be fine again.

And my boss, who we lost to cancer last Friday, he was leading the company meeting the Friday before he died, but the week before that he couldn’t because he couldn’t speak or read. Then he seemed fine, then was in a meeting Tuesday and seemed tired but optimistic, then he went into hospice on Thursday, died on Friday, and was buried on Sunday.

But I’ll defer to the information you have on her based on your caring for her because, clearly. Most people find the mental toll and pain from cancer to be something that impacts them negatively, so if she’s lucid, clear, and 100% with it all the time and the weight of impending death at a relatively young age has created no duress or stress or impairs her, she’s quite lucky indeed.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I've known and cared for several people who have had, and passed away from, cancer.

This was one of the captions in the article: "Shannen Doherty looks spirited and happy in recent photos she shared to social media."

She was apparently coherent enough to give an interview to Fox News or whoever did the interview. It's pretty obvious she hasn't lost her mind due to the disease or treatments.

I beg to differ. A dying person who has put their faith in their good works needs to hear the Gospel more than anything else.

I doubt Shannen Doherty "needs" to hear the Gospel. It's not quite as if she hasn't already heard it many times over.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Seeing as she’s Southern Baptist, she likely has heard it many, many, many times over. And then many more times after that.

 

[Jermayn]

Information you obviously have because you care for her on an intimate, daily basis, I’m sure.

Because I know when I cared with my family member with cancer, they had great days where everything seemed great and normal. But then the bad days came. They couldn’t remember how to fed themselves, their family members names, or think coherently past the pain. And then they’d be fine again.

And my boss, who we lost to cancer last Friday, he was leading the company meeting the Friday before he died, but the week before that he couldn’t because he couldn’t speak or read. Then he seemed fine, then was in a meeting Tuesday and seemed tired but optimistic, then he went into hospice on Thursday, died on Friday, and was buried on Sunday.

But I’ll defer to the information you have on her based on your caring for her because, clearly. Most people find the mental toll and pain from cancer to be something that impacts them negatively, so if she’s lucid, clear, and 100% with it all the time and the weight of impending death at a relatively young age has created no duress or stress or impairs her, she’s quite lucky indeed.

Who said I was offended or that I’m telling people that being a good person is all it takes to get to heaven?

Super. That has nothing to do with this.

Yes, super selfish actually.

Thanks for the permission. And if she owes you no explanation, confronting her to tell her she needs to confirm her faith to you would be inappropriate.

Turning the imminent death of a stranger into an interaction where you want them to explain their passing comment to your satisfaction is not “sharing the gospel.” Having her say she’s a good person and she feels comfortable with what happens after death and you replying “uh oh, you’re misguided and going to hell” is not “sharing the gospel.”

Really? Because the Bible has a lot to say about judging your neighbor, removing planks from your eyes before removing the specks from others, and believers left gnashing their teeth outside of the gates of heaven while those they wrongly judged to be unworthy enter into heaven, and God’s general dissatisfaction at people who use his name to pass judgment when that’s not an authority he granted them. You do believe the Bible is God’s word, right?

In this context, no, it’s not. She made a passing comment that grazed over how she’s processing her death. You judged her for not, found her wanting, and now we are on page 3 of why you think it’s totally ok to browbeat a stranger for your assumption on her faith based on an innocuous answer to a general question related to her death.

So then if it’s not a you problem, stop reading into that she said, don’t assume that her saying she’s a good person means she doesn’t believe in Jesus, and stop putting her spirituality down to lift you up. About 3 pages ago this stopped being about her faith and started being a platform for you to virtue signal about how right you are, how much you know, and making sure she, me, and others on here know that you are the Sneech with the star on your belly and all of us are found to be wanting for the lack of stars in ours. You’ve called out my faith, her faith, others faith for not measuring up to you and it’s not virtuous. It’s prideful, boastful, not Biblical, and, frankly, obnoxious.

Seeing as she’s Southern Baptist, she likely has heard it many, many, many times over. And then many more times after that.

.....and what if you're wrong Tropical Winds? What happens to Shannon then?

 

[Tropical Wilds]

.....and what if you're wrong Tropical Winds? What happens to Shannon then?

Wilds.

Her salvation is something I want for her, but it isn’t my responsibility. She is responsible for her own faith and salvation, not me. She is a stranger, I’m not a religious authority, I’m not on her spiritual team. I have no business speculating on her destination after she dies. Me announcing she’s going to hell based off a comment made to somebody else and then interrogating her on her faith until she answers to my satisfaction is wildly inappropriate and completely against what we are called to do in such situations.

 

[MForbes]

The wrong theology on Jesus and salvation could be a death sentence.

....and yet many think they have the "right" theology. They believe that they're right and everyone else is wrong.

You know what? Everyone's wrong. Even those that think they're right.

If you're so sure that she's going to hell because she's not "saved", drop what you're doing and go share your gospel with her. If you really believe what you're spouting, then you will be guilty of not trying to "save" her if she dies and goes to hell.

 

[Jermayn]

....and yet many think they have the "right" theology. They believe that they're right and everyone else is wrong.

You know what? Everyone's wrong. Even those that think they're right.

Think about the logic of that statement. If no one is correct, then you are incorrect and we can disregard your post. If you are exempt from that blanket statement, then you must think you have the "right" theology....

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Think about the logic of that statement. If no one is correct, then you are incorrect and we can disregard your post. If you are exempt from that blanket statement, then you must think you have the "right" theology....

The point remains that at no point during this thread have you entertained the idea that you could just as well be the wrong one.

 

[MForbes]

Think about the logic of that statement. If no one is correct, then you are incorrect and we can disregard your post.

Fine....I really don't care. But you need to get busy and go "save" Shannon if you really care.

 

[MForbes]

.....at no point during this thread have you entertained the idea that you could just as well be the wrong one.

Well, that ain't gonna happen. If it actually did, I'd be wrong in that assessment. But I can honestly say in this case............

........I'm right that it won't happen.

But I will admit I'm wrong if it does happen.

 

[ViaCrucis]

While I mostly agree with what you've stated, I was argue that your theology, which is just a fancy way of saying what you believe, about Jesus is vital to salvation. Mormons believe Jesus is Satan's spirit brother and just a guy trying to attain godhood like the rest of us. Wrong Jesus. Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is the Arch-Angel Michael. Wrong Jesus. There's a guy in Russia that says he's Jesus and has a pretty large following. Wrong Jesus. God isn't going to be like "Well, I guess you technically believed in Jesus, so come on in". Not going to happen. If that were the case, the real Jesus wouldn't have warned us not to follow false Christs (Matthew 24:23-24) and doctrines of demons (1 Timothy 4:1).

To say bad theology about Jesus doesn't matter, in my opinion, is to say that everyone will be saved regardless of what they believe. I'm not accusing you of meaning it that way, but that's how it comes across to me.

You're right, I'm not saying everyone is saved regardless of what they believe. Though I would say that God saves us, not on the basis of what we believe, but on the basis of what He has done. I don't have a problem with the idea that Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses, and other heretics, can be saved. Not because they're right, but because God is the One who does the saving, not us.

Am I saying all Mormons and all Jehovah's Witnesses--all heretics--will be saved? No.
I also don't believe that everyone who happens to have their theology perfectly orthodox will be saved.

Salvation isn't God's response to our believing the right things.
Salvation is God coming down and rescuing sinners.

I'm a sinner. Unworthy of salvation. My confidence in my salvation isn't because I am right, but because I trust that God--who promises what He promises in Christ, to unworthy sinners such as myself--is Faithful and True.

I offer God nothing except my own worthless wretchedness, which rightly deserves damnation.
God gives everything, eternal life, peace, forgiveness, and unbreakable hope.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dzheremi]

If you can't even entertain the idea that you can personally be wrong, then I don't see what business you have saying anything about anyone's walk, or their salvation -- or, for that matter, expecting anyone to listen to you about either of those things, or anything else.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I doubt Shannen Doherty "needs" to hear the Gospel. It's not quite as if she hasn't already heard it many times over.

I get where you're coming from.

Though the Lutheran in me would insist that we all need to hear the Gospel, not just many times--but all the time. The Gospel keeps us alive.

-CryptoLutheran