Shame and nudity

[Mark Quayle]

But that contradicts what you just said.

Explain, please. I see no contradiction.

 

[Larniavc]

Explain, please. I see no contradiction.

You said he had to exist to bring himself into existence.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You said he had to exist to bring himself into existence.

Anything would first have to exist, to bring itself into existence. Self-existence does not imply any such thing. It (God —'first cause') is the only brute fact. It does not begin. It only ever IS. It does not 'become'.

 

[Larniavc]

Anything would first have to exist, to bring itself into existence. Self-existence does not imply any such thing. It (God —'first cause') is the only brute fact. It does not begin. It only ever IS. It does not 'become'.

That's incoherent.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That's incoherent.

Incoherent only if you assume supremacy to time passage.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That's incoherent.

You might appreciate this video. The beginning is entertaining and important.

 

[Techo]

Mark Quayle... I love your work... you seem to get a handle on a lot of things and come up with some pretty insightful things. I'd love you get your take on a few things like... what was in the mind of the Jews, Egyptians etc that made them ashamed of being naked. Was it to do with... intimacy... like we seem to get shoved at us these days or something else? Can't quite figure what was going on in Jewish culture way back in the time of the first Kings and the prophets. I mean... Isa 20... verse 4 in particular... what was going on there? The shame was their butt being exposed? Not other bits? I

I did notice that the words used in Hebrew for naked ('erom' Gen 3:7) and subtle ('arum' Gen 3:1), used to describe the serpent, come from the same Hebrew root word 'aram' meaning to be subtle, shrewd, crafty and so forth. It makes me wonder if the reason that they were afraid may have been more in line that they realized that they had become... well... like the serpent... perhaps corrupted in some way.

I might be with Tellyontellyon about the 'clothed with light' bit, in some ways. I can see God being clothed in light because "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all" (1Jn 1:5) but from what little I can pick up about Angels is seems like they are designed different to have stuff 'built in' to suit whatever function they were to serve. An example from where it refers to 'Cherub that covereth':
Eze 28:13 Thou wast in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, the topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was in thee; in the day that thou wast created they were prepared.
Eze 28:14 Thou wast the anointed cherub that covereth: and I set thee, so that thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till unrighteousness was found in thee.

(Might be slightly off topic but I've been hearing lately that spirits are constrained by the purpose for which they were to serve in so need us to give them access to other areas of control within our realm... big subject... another thread maybe).

One final thing... has anyone ever actually made an apron out of fig leaves... out of curiosity of course... or maybe for a Bible character theme party... or both? The issue with fig leaf clothing is:
a. it's scratchy... not real comfortable to wear
and
b. after a little while the leaves dry out and start to curl up... oops (the precautions paid off).
So a soft, supple, leather upgrade was probably a great idea as far as those 2 were concerned... especially when Adam was having to work through thorns and thistles.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle... I love your work... you seem to get a handle on a lot of things and come up with some pretty insightful things. I'd love you get your take on a few things like... what was in the mind of the Jews, Egyptians etc that made them ashamed of being naked. Was it to do with... intimacy... like we seem to get shoved at us these days or something else? Can't quite figure what was going on in Jewish culture way back in the time of the first Kings and the prophets. I mean... Isa 20... verse 4 in particular... what was going on there? The shame was their butt being exposed? Not other bits? I

I did notice that the words used in Hebrew for naked ('erom' Gen 3:7) and subtle ('arum' Gen 3:1), used to describe the serpent, come from the same Hebrew root word 'aram' meaning to be subtle, shrewd, crafty and so forth. It makes me wonder if the reason that they were afraid may have been more in line that they realized that they had become... well... like the serpent... perhaps corrupted in some way.

I might be with Tellyontellyon about the 'clothed with light' bit, in some ways. I can see God being clothed in light because "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all" (1Jn 1:5) but from what little I can pick up about Angels is seems like they are designed different to have stuff 'built in' to suit whatever function they were to serve. An example from where it refers to 'Cherub that covereth':
Eze 28:13 Thou wast in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, the topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was in thee; in the day that thou wast created they were prepared.
Eze 28:14 Thou wast the anointed cherub that covereth: and I set thee, so that thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till unrighteousness was found in thee.

(Might be slightly off topic but I've been hearing lately that spirits are constrained by the purpose for which they were to serve in so need us to give them access to other areas of control within our realm... big subject... another thread maybe).

One final thing... has anyone ever actually made an apron out of fig leaves... out of curiosity of course... or maybe for a Bible character theme party... or both? The issue with fig leaf clothing is:
a. it's scratchy... not real comfortable to wear
and
b. after a little while the leaves dry out and start to curl up... oops (the precautions paid off).
So a soft, supple, leather upgrade was probably a great idea as far as those 2 were concerned... especially when Adam was having to work through thorns and thistles.

Thank you. I'm not much of a student of ancient cultures (nor current cultures either, come to think of it). I have heard of/ noticed different sorts of things being shameful for different cultures. Speculations about the ancients run along the lines of a frankness about sexuality, but inhibitions about the sight of the "private parts". I'm not sure what it meant about Ham "uncovering his father's (Noah) nakedness.", but it seems to be more than just a prank, yet with no necessarily implied actual indecent act --only the uncovering.

There is also a reference to treating the less presentable parts of the body with special care. I take the following from 1 Corinthians 12:22-24 "And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty,"

 

[angelsaroundme]

The Rabbinical texts suggest that Ham or his son Canaan castrated Noah. It's said Ham was at fault in the latter situation because he mentioned Noah's nakedness to Canaan, which prompted Canaan to castrate Noah. While the Rabbinical texts are not considered authoritative by Christians generally, in many situations they give a pretty likely answer.

 

[timothyu]

Oww

 

[HermanNeutics13]

God created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and he created them nude... He declared his work good.

After eating from the tree of knowledge Adam and Eve felt shame at their nudity.... Why? What was wrong with nudity? Clothes were contrary to God's plan for humanity...
I don't understand why Adam and Eve decided nudity was shameful when it was God's wish for us to be nude... how can it be sin?

You are right. It wasn't the nudity that was sin. Nowhere does it actually say that. In fact, it seems that shame was part of the sin. When they hid from God and tried to cover their bodies. God gave them animal skin to protect them from the harsh environment now in the world, but nothing was said about modesty.

 

[Techo]

Depends on where you live. In florda they do not seem to think there is any problem at all with being nude.

Actually Diamond7... now that I think about what you said it seems more like there is something about where you live... not just in Florida. Back in 2009 I was over in Austria and Slovakia for a couple of weeks and noticed, while passing a Sauna, those countries seemed less bother by nudity... well... when it comes to cooking in a sauna that is. In places, I'm led to understand, it also extends to parks and pools. Might be a Germanic/Slavic thing... just a different culture or something. Or... is there an Anglo-American (Aussie too) over reaction?

But... in coming to understand a biblical perspective on this we probably need to get a better understanding of what people in Old and New Testament times considered to be shameful... and then maybe try and work out why. This has stumped me a bit. Guess I'm just too locked into how we've been raised in the English speaking countries... don't have middle east way of thinking.

 

[Diamond7]

Or... is there an Anglo-American (Aussie too) over reaction?

There are modest people. Even to where they will not wear a swimsuit without a tee shirt over it and sometimes even shorts. No one really notices them because they are so busy looking at the ones with no modesty. I think job said he made a covenant with his eyes not to even look Job 31:1.

 

[Techo]

The Rabbinical texts suggest that Ham or his son Canaan castrated Noah.

Ah... don't think I'm ready to believe that... does not sound like the way a fresh start for this world would have begun. More likely Ham saw his Dad under the weather and a bit aroused then 'had a joke' with his brothers about it (i.e. mocked his father)... but they had more respect for their father.

 

[Techo]

There are modest people. Even to where they will not wear a swimsuit without a tee shirt over it and sometimes even shorts. No one really notices them because they are so busy looking at the ones with no modesty. I think job said he made a covenant with his eyes not to even look Job 31:1.

Yep... we have those modest people in my fellowship but back 50 years ago, in the Baptist fellowship I grew up in, nobody was so covered up at the beach and the beach was pretty accessible for us so we spent a fair bit of time there over summer. One piece bathers for ladies certainly but parents were not overly concerned about their girls wearing bikinis and a few of them did. Board shorts had not been invented until after surfing became popular so speedo style of togs was fairly common with the men and boys. I notice the ones with tee shirts and shorts over their swimwear because I am concerned at how much extra it would impede them if they get caught in one of our rips. (We lose more tourists to rips than crocs and sharks combined).

 

[timothyu]

it seems that shame was part of the sin.

Sin was putting their will ahead of the will of God. Their shame was a result of self determination (sin being their will) of good and evil.

 

[IoanC]

They lost their state of purity and innocence. They also began to lose God's Grace gradually.