... shall not perish but have life for an aeon ...

[ananda]

John 3:15(NIV84)-"that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life"

Notice the bold world eternal nuff said.

John 3:15 (CLV)-"that everyone believing on Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian."

Notice the bold word eonian nuff said.

 

[agape101]

What a joke, I cracked up when I read this. You have destroyed nothing! Copy/paste implies dishonestly copying someone else's work and presenting it as one's own. I properly identified all my sources.

You failed to notice I quoted nine (9) Greek language sources and quoted from two pre-Christian secular Greek writings by Plato and Philo. There is a grammatical device in the Bible known as epizeuxis. A word is repeated for emphasis. Jesus poften did this "Amen, Amen." The earliest occurrence of this is in Genesis 2:17 when God told Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, in Hebrew the penalty is מות תמות/muth tamuth, literally "dying you shall die." One who does not know Greek should not try to substitute their assumptions/presuppositions for the knowledge of Greek scholars and ancient Greek writers. What is true in English is not necessarily true in other languages. Reduplicaton of aion is a way of emphasizing the endlessness of aion. See "Figures of speech used in the Bible:" E. W. Bullinger.

I said that aion is used as a plural noun in the nt. Not that it repeats. It is a plural noun.

If i were arguing the repeat "ages of the ages" its the same usage as "king of kings."

 

[agape101]

What a joke, I cracked up when I read this. You have destroyed nothing! Copy/paste implies dishonestly copying someone else's work and presenting it as one's own. I properly identified all my sources.

You failed to notice I quoted nine (9) Greek language sources and quoted from two pre-Christian secular Greek writings by Plato and Philo. There is a grammatical device in the Bible known as epizeuxis. A word is repeated for emphasis. Jesus poften did this "Amen, Amen." The earliest occurrence of this is in Genesis 2:17 when God told Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, in Hebrew the penalty is מות תמות/muth tamuth, literally "dying you shall die." One who does not know Greek should not try to substitute their assumptions/presuppositions for the knowledge of Greek scholars and ancient Greek writers. What is true in English is not necessarily true in other languages. Reduplicaton of aion is a way of emphasizing the endlessness of aion. See "Figures of speech used in the Bible:" E. W. Bullinger.

An example is hebrews 13:8 which says jesus is the same yesterday, today and even into "the ages" (tous aionas) which is a plural noun.

 

[agape101]

Have you ever studied Greek? Do you know anything about the Greek language or is this just your assumptions/presuppositions which change nothing?

I use google translate

 

[James Is Back]

I use google translate

Google translate does not translate Koine Greek!

 

[Der Alte]

I said that aion is used as a plural noun in the nt. Not that it repeats. It is a plural noun.

If i were arguing the repeat "ages of the ages" its the same usage as "king of kings."

Please read my previous posts. In the expression εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων the word αἰῶν is repeated. Does God live only for an indeterminate number of ages? I refer you once again to my [post=66613760]post #7 & 8[/post]

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.​

If you wish to pursue this please do so with scholarly support. I am not much interested in the biased presuppositions of someone with no knowledge of Greek.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Great points, Stephan Kendall. Though wouldn't you say that widespread ignorance of Jesus' direct commands & teachings is the product of attempts to dethrone them?

The whole purpose to fight is to love blood shed and to dethrone. I can understand why we are told to live a quiet life and give an answer to those curious of our hope. Christians who follow Jesus are suppose to be peaceful and not wanting to draw blood in fighting. If we do as Jesus tells us, I believe that we will do the most good in this life.

Every question that I have asked God, I have received an answer from him. I asked some very difficult questions, that my writings here may show. I seem satisfied with the answers. I didn't know there could be satisfactory answers to some questions, the answers just took a lot more maturing on my part to be answered.

There are a lot of mysteries that will have answers in time, I am patient to not even ask anymore questions, I know that God has control of things and I always trusted him, no matter the difficulty placed on him by the conjectured ignorance of man. God is not the god of hypocrisy, so we don't need to go there. Love and understanding can be given to those who do. I may lack great wisdom and understanding, but simply living a quiet and peaceful life for God is enough, for I give my hope in Christ readily without man's recklessness.

Jesus always would say, "If you have ears to hear with, then hear!" One of the reasons to say that is the idea of man screwing up everything following his mind & flesh. Jesus has to speak through the fog covering his word and to souls whom the evil one has choked. He is still there and his word is still very potent. The problem is us, my friends. We need each other, for our day to day walk has the evil spirit and even our own flesh attacking our fortress of Christ. I must say that we are all really saying the same thing, we just don't have the ability to see each other. We might emphasize and protect our small thoughts, but in reality, none of us could live without Jesus, one Jesus, the Holy Spirit, one Holy Spirit and God, yes just one God, despite the attempts of the evil one to disarray us Christians to be at each other's throat. You know that I love each one here and trust only our Lord Jesus. Have a great day in the Lord each one of you. May our Father bless you, my Christian brethren.

 

[ananda]

The whole purpose to fight is to love blood shed and to dethrone. I can understand why we are told to live a quiet life and give an answer to those curious of our hope. Christians who follow Jesus are suppose to be peaceful and not wanting to draw blood in fighting. If we do as Jesus tells us, I believe that we will do the most good in this life.

Every question that I have asked God, I have received an answer from him. I asked some very difficult questions, that my writings here may show. I seem satisfied with the answers. I didn't know there could be satisfactory answers to some questions, the answers just took a lot more maturing on my part to be answered.

There are a lot of mysteries that will have answers in time, I am patient to not even ask anymore questions, I know that God has control of things and I always trusted him, no matter the difficulty placed on him by the conjectured ignorance of man. God is not the god of hypocrisy, so we don't need to go there. Love and understanding can be given to those who do. I may lack great wisdom and understanding, but simply living a quiet and peaceful life for God is enough, for I give my hope in Christ readily without man's recklessness.

Jesus always would say, "If you have ears to hear with, then hear!" One of the reasons to say that is the idea of man screwing up everything following his mind & flesh. Jesus has to speak through the fog covering his word and to souls whom the evil one has choked. He is still there and his word is still very potent. The problem is us, my friends. We need each other, for our day to day walk has the evil spirit and even our own flesh attacking our fortress of Christ. I must say that we are all really saying the same thing, we just don't have the ability to see each other. We might emphasize and protect our small thoughts, but in reality, none of us could live without Jesus, one Jesus, the Holy Spirit, one Holy Spirit and God, yes just one God, despite the attempts of the evil one to disarray us Christians to be at each other's throat. You know that I love each one here and trust only our Lord Jesus. Have a great day in the Lord each one of you. May our Father bless you, my Christian brethren.

 

[agape101]

Please read my previous posts. In the expression εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων the word αἰῶν is repeated. Does God live only for an indeterminate number of ages? I refer you once again to my [post=66613760]post #7 & 8[/post]

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.​

If you wish to pursue this please do so with scholarly support. I am not much interested in the biased presuppositions of someone with no knowledge of Greek.

Ill say it a third time..... the verse in Hebrews has NO repeating...... just the plural noun for ,properly, (eons) .

And the comment about using google translate for koine greek was a joke.... but even the most oblivious can easily see the plural form. Literally "into the eons."

If aion(singular) is supposed to mean "eternity", what does its plural form mean? "Jesus is the same yesterday, today and 'into the eternities'?

 

[Der Alte]

Ill say it a third time..... the verse in Hebrews has NO repeating...... just the plural noun for ,properly, (eons) .

And the comment about using google translate for koine greek was a joke.... but even the most oblivious can easily see the plural form. Literally "into the eons."

If aion(singular) is supposed to mean "eternity", what does its plural form mean? "Jesus is the same yesterday, today and 'into the eternities'?

Have you ever studied Greek? If not you are basing your "interpretation" on how English functions. Greek is not English. Earlier in this thread I quoted nine Greek language sources also there were quotes from two pre-Christian secular Greek writers. Instead of just giving your opinion please address them. All nine sources agree that aion/aionios, means eternal, unending, everlasting, etc. Now, unless you can find scholarly sources which disprove the nine sources I quoted, the matter is settled. There are a lot of folks who would dearly like for aion/aionios not to mean eternal but I have no interest in arguing with unsupported opinion.

 

[Der Alte]

Are you presupposing that the God of the Bible is infinite/eternal? Please show me where Plato used aion* to refer to "eternity".

I already did in posts 7 and 8 this thread.

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).

Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]

In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *
NIDNTT Colin Brown

Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios​

 

[Tishri1]

MOD HAT- Clean up...... Proceed......

 

[createdtoworship]

What if "eternal life", as is commonly believed in Christian circles, really meant "life for an aeon"?

aion/aeon/aionios in verses such as John 3:16 are virtually almost always translated "eternal [life]" (ζωὴν αἰώνιο&#957 ... but would it change anything for you if Jesus actually meant "life for an aeon"?

It is said that in koine Greek, "aionios" refers to things whicn endure, and the word has been used to describe things like "stones used to build a wall", or the length of time a person was imprisoned. Chrysostom reportedly wrote that the kingdom of Satan "is aionios, in other words it will cease with the present aeon"! "Aeons" seems to refer to something lasting, but also temporary.

A more direct example, for me, is Mt 13:39, where Jesus said: "The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels." The phrase translated "end of the world" actually states "completion of the aionos"! Does it make sense to translate it "end of eternity"?

For some, this understanding points many to an interpretation of Christian universalism (universal reconciliation with God). I am personally open to this possibility, and to the possibility that "life for an aeon" Christianity may be compatible as a subset of a greater Buddhist cosmological framework.

3 Arguments for Eternal Hell that I view are sufficient to tilt any and all other interpretations of AION etc, toward endless ages plural, not singular. (synonomous with eternity), as AION is used of God, heaven and numerous other things that are in fact eternally being described. Now here are the main premises and scripture for this argument I use:

1. Matthew 25:46
   
   "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
   
   Augustine raised the argument that since Aionios in Matthew 25:46 refers to both life and punishment , it had to carry the same duration in both cases.
   
   Annihilationists are stuck to believe the duration is relative to whom it is given.
   
2. secondly the soul has to be eternal because satan and angels are eternal and it is them that share the experience of Hell with the wicked. Again annihilationists are stuck to believe that the duration is relative to whom it is given.
   
3. thirdly, the beast and the false prophet are in hell a thousand years in the Revelation. They will be tossed in before the millennium and abide until the end of the 1000 years when Satan is thrown in.
   
   Revelation 14:11
   
   "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
   
   Rev 20:10
   
   "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."