Sexual (im)morality and cultural differences

[Joykins]

I think I got a lot from the NT that you all are attributing to St Maximos and Yoder.

 

[Thekla]

I think I got a lot from the NT that you all are attributing to St Maximos and Yoder.

yeah, its "there"

but it can be a difficult transformation to undergo

its only somewhat related, but an example of the 'transformation' is found in Byzantine (4th c. on) society. I haven't read the book (expensive ), but Constantinople had free 'elder care', free hospitals (IIRC, monasteries which attended to both physical and spiritual ills). In order to combat abortion, abandonment and infanticide through exposure, orphanages were founded. These various 'hostels' were funded not infrequently by wealthy patrons (and this was encouraged by priests, etc.). Again, this example doesn't speak directly to the topic, but as a footnote, exhibits the transformation which can occur from OT law to NT "law" to life.

 

[Crazy Liz]

So to get back to the OP, "steal" mean different things in different cultures, depending on what each considers a person's property that no one else should take. "Adultery" until the Middle Ages meant violation of a husband's right to his wife's sexual fidelity, when a married woman had no commensurate right to her husband's sexual fidelity. In some societies a man can have multiple wives, but not in others.

Is the essence of "Thou shalt not steal" respect for your neighbor's property rights according to the mores of your culture? Is the essence of "Thou shalt not commit adultery" respect for your neighbor's marriage according to the mores of your culture?

 

[Texas Lynn]

"You shall not steal"

I dont know Liz, I just cant see the big problem with understanding Gods intent there.

Specifics are important in such determinations. Not every act of what some may consider stealing would be considered so by others.

Richard Brautigan said "My teachers could have ridden with Jesse James for all the time they stole from me."

 

[Thekla]

actually, St. Tikhon refers to both not giving a fair days work and not paying a fair wage as stealing...

 

[Archivist]

huh.

"You shall not steal"

I dont know Liz, I just cant see the big problem with understanding Gods intent there.

Liz is correct; it isn't as black and white as you make it out to be.

Example: intellectual property (patents, copyrights, trademarks). The concept didn't exist under ancient Jewish law, and even today there are some nations that do not recognize intellectual property.

So, it it stealing? Under western law the answer is yes, but the answer can be different depending on where you are.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Jesse James was a lad that killed many a man, He robbed the Glendale train, He stole from the rich and he gave to the poor, He'd a hand and a heart and a brain. Well it was Robert Ford, that dirty little coward, I wonder how he feel, For he ate of Jesse's bread and he slept in Jesse's bed, And he laid poor Jesse in his grave. (chorus) Well Jesse had a wife to mourn for his life Three children now they were brave Well that dirty little coward that shot Mr. Howard He laid poor Jesse in his grave Jesse was a man, a friend to the poor, He'd never rob a mother or a child There never was a man with the law in his hand That could take Jesse James alive It was on a Saturday night and the moon was shining bright, They robbed the Glendale train, And people they did say o'er many miles away It was those outlaws, they're Frank and Jesse James (chorus) Now the people held their breath when they heard of Jesse's death, And wondered how he ever came to fall Robert Ford, it was a fact, he shot Jesse in the back While Jesse hung a picture on the wall Now Jesse went to rest with his hand on his breast, The devil will be upon his knee. He was born one day in the County Clay, And he came from a solitary race. (chorus)

 

[HuntingMan]

Liz is correct; it isn't as black and white as you make it out to be.

You and Liz, as well as myself and everyone else here, are entitled to opinions.
Ive seen enough on this forum to know that Ill keep my black and white, thank you very much.
If some here feel that its better to keep the waters muddied, that is your own choice.
*I* choose to reject that belief...as I am entitled to do.

Example: intellectual property (patents, copyrights, trademarks). The concept didn't exist under ancient Jewish law, and even today there are some nations that do not recognize intellectual property.

So, it it stealing? Under western law the answer is yes, but the answer can be different depending on where you are.

So to prove your point you find some sort of loophole ?
Sorry, but REGARDLESS of whether the law can prosecute the act or not STEALING is STEALING..
Do you genuinely believe that its only 'stealing' if you can be prosecuted ? Is that how you define the word ?

knowing this: that the law is not laid down for the righteous, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for killers of fathers and killers of mothers, for murderers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is opposed to sound doctrine,
(1Ti 1:9-10 EMTV)
​

Without crime, there would be no NEED for the law.
It is because of thieves that there are laws against stealing.
If someone tells me their idea and I take it and claim it is my own, yes, its 'stealing' whether the law of my country can prosecute it as such or not.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

You and Liz, as well as myself and everyone else here, are entitled to opinions.
Ive seen enough on this forum to know that Ill keep my black and white, thank you very much.
If some here feel that its better to keep the waters muddied, that is your own choice.
*I* choose to reject that belief...as I am entitled to do.

So to prove your point you find some sort of loophole ?
Sorry, but REGARDLESS of whether the law can prosecute the act or not STEALING is STEALING..
Do you genuinely believe that its only 'stealing' if you can be prosecuted ? Is that how you define the word ?

knowing this: that the law is not laid down for the righteous, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for killers of fathers and killers of mothers, for murderers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is opposed to sound doctrine,
(1Ti 1:9-10 EMTV)
​

Without crime, there would be no NEED for the law.
It is because of thieves that there are laws against stealing.
If someone tells me their idea and I take it and claim it is my own, yes, its 'stealing' whether the law of my country can prosecute it as such or not.

I think the point is that to a certain extent what is considered stealing depends on the expectations of the culture. For example, the Hebrews had a custom of letting the poor take the crops that fell to the ground during harvest (or something like that). If someone today went onto someone's field and took what was there, we would consider it stealing while the Hebrews would probably consider it steal if a farmer tried to retrieve what fell to the ground.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Ive seen enough on this forum to know that Ill keep my black and white, thank you very much.
If some here feel that its better to keep the waters muddied, that is your own choice.

Black and White Thinking is one of the leading thought distortions combatted against in the practice of cognitive therapy. A mature and reasoned outlook acknowleges shades of gray.

STEALING is STEALING.

The above is legalism.

Without crime, there would be no NEED for the law.

The most henious crimes are committed by people in power.

It is because of thieves that there are laws against stealing.

No; it is to enforce social inequality.

 

[Texas Lynn]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Pretty Boy Floyd[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]

by Woody Guthrie

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you'll gather 'round me, children,
A story I will tell
'Bout Pretty Boy Floyd, an outlaw,
Oklahoma knew him well.

It was in the town of Shawnee,
A Saturday afternoon,
His wife beside him in his wagon
As into town they rode. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There a deputy sheriff approached him
In a manner rather rude,
Vulgar words of anger,
An' his wife she overheard. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Pretty Boy grabbed a log chain,
And the deputy grabbed his gun;
In the fight that followed
He laid that deputy down. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then he took to the trees and timber
To live a life of shame;
Every crime in Oklahoma
Was added to his name. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But a many a starving farmer
The same old story told
How the outlaw paid their mortgage
And saved their little homes. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Others tell you 'bout a stranger
That come to beg a meal,
Underneath his napkin
Left a thousand dollar bill. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It was in Oklahoma City,
It was on a Christmas Day,
There was a whole car load of groceries
Come with a note to say: [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Well, you say that I'm an outlaw,
You say that I'm a thief.
Here's a Christmas dinner
For the families on relief. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And as through your life you travel,
Yes, as through your life you roam,
You won't never see an outlaw
Drive a family from their home.[/FONT]

 

[Texas Lynn]

I think the point is that to a certain extent what is considered stealing depends on the expectations of the culture. For example, the Hebrews had a custom of letting the poor take the crops that fell to the ground during harvest (or something like that). If someone today went onto someone's field and took what was there, we would consider it stealing while the Hebrews would probably consider it steal if a farmer tried to retrieve what fell to the ground.

Gleaning. You're exactly right. There's a heckuva lot more in the Bible on relief of the poor than on sex or divorce. Those who concentrate on the latter to the detriment of the former do so to align themselves with existing power arrangements; and to fool the public, of course.

 

[Thekla]

I'm unsure about the intended connection between the US outlaw references and the OP; perhaps you could discuss the connection ?

 

[Joykins]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Pretty Boy Floyd[/FONT]

by Woody Guthrie

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you'll gather 'round me, children,
A story I will tell
'Bout Pretty Boy Floyd, an outlaw,
Oklahoma knew him well.

It was in the town of Shawnee,
A Saturday afternoon,
His wife beside him in his wagon
As into town they rode. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There a deputy sheriff approached him
In a manner rather rude,
Vulgar words of anger,
An' his wife she overheard. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Pretty Boy grabbed a log chain,
And the deputy grabbed his gun;
In the fight that followed
He laid that deputy down. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then he took to the trees and timber
To live a life of shame;
Every crime in Oklahoma
Was added to his name. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But a many a starving farmer
The same old story told
How the outlaw paid their mortgage
And saved their little homes. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Others tell you 'bout a stranger
That come to beg a meal,
Underneath his napkin
Left a thousand dollar bill. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It was in Oklahoma City,
It was on a Christmas Day,
There was a whole car load of groceries
Come with a note to say: [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Well, you say that I'm an outlaw,
You say that I'm a thief.
Here's a Christmas dinner
For the families on relief. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And as through your life you travel,
Yes, as through your life you roam,
You won't never see an outlaw
Drive a family from their home.[/FONT]

.....AAAAAAND THAT WRAPS UP tonight's show of OUTLAW COUNTRY. Be sure to tune in every Sunday Night with DJ Texas Lynn and the Brooklyn Cowgirls. We're here to root for the underdog, paper-train the big dogs, clarify your values and your butter, and country-fry your mind. We're culturally relevant, reveling in culture, and culturing your throat. All wrongs righted and all rights reserved. And we're bringing it home with an old favorite, It Wasn't God Who Made Honky-Tonk Angels.

 

[Joykins]

Is it stealing to assist in the escape of a slave?

 

[Texas Lynn]

I'm unsure about the intended connection between the US outlaw references and the OP; perhaps you could discuss the connection ?

It's a tangent but not a far-off one. A comparison was made to "stealing" from sexual rule making.

The Legalistic approach is to declare certain "rules" immutable to exclude some. A more compassionate response is to consider individual circumstances.

 

[Texas Lynn]

.....AAAAAAND THAT WRAPS UP tonight's show of OUTLAW COUNTRY. Be sure to tune in every Sunday Night with DJ Texas Lynn and the Brooklyn Cowgirls. We're here to root for the underdog, paper-train the big dogs, clarify your values and your butter, and country-fry your mind. We're culturally relevant, reveling in culture, and culturing your throat. All wrongs righted and all rights reserved. And we're bringing it home with an old favorite, It Wasn't God Who Made Honky-Tonk Angels.

Thanks. My Dad has a fleeting claim to having been in Willie's posse once having visited backstage at Armadillo World Headquarters.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Is it stealing to assist in the escape of a slave?

It was according the Fugitive Slave Act which was part of the Compromise of 1850.

 

[Thekla]

how about The Ballad of Frankie and Johnny ?

 

[Joykins]

Or as my dad used to sing to the babies, "Hang Down Your Head, Tom Drooley"