Sex... losing a part of yourself!?!?

[rturner76]

Okay, what you're talking about here is very subjective... and dependent on the culture one resides.

There is no Biblical basis though, to support the idea if you have sex, you lose your self respect, or your pride, or insert whatever. Those are cultural norms which may or may not be relevant.

Is there a Biblical basis for not fornicating?

 

[SnowyMacie]

It's actually pretty literal. Research microchimerism and telegony. You will see that the seminal fluids of men contain DNA in it, and when women have casual sex with men, the DNA of these men gets into the woman's blood stream and becomes a part of her body, permanently. One flesh, right? Furthermore, when she finally has children, her children even carry traits and dna from her previous partners even though it was her current man who sired the children. This is why it is called "adultery" when the married woman is with a man who is not her husband, the land is being polluted, adulterated. It's not reversable, so I'd definitely say the woman is losing pieces of herself through casual sex.

Telogony in humans is completely false and incompatible with genetics and the reproductive process, and in fact has never been observed in any species of plant or animal except one species of fly. Every other living thing on this planet, including humans, gets 50% of their DNA from their mother and 50% of their DNA from their father. Telogony was an attempt to explain dominant and recessive traits now understood by Mendelian genetics.
Microchimerism has nothing to do with telogony and occurs when cells from the fetus pass through the placenta into the mother, and does not occur in all women, nor can these cells cells find their way into future children or impact their DNA.

 

[Tetra]

Telogony is completely false and incompatible with genetics and the reproductive process, and has never been observed in anything except one species of fly. Every other living thing on this planet, including humans, gets 50% of their DNA from their mother and 50% of their DNA from their father. Telogony was an attempt to explain dominant and recessive traits now understood by Mendelian genetics.
Microchimerism has nothing to do with telogony and occurs when cells from the fetus pass through the placenta into the mother, and does not occur in all women, nor can these cells cells find their way into future children or impact their DNA.

Yup.

 

[Tetra]

Is there a Biblical basis for not fornicating?

There is, but some Christians do argue over the definition.

 

[Torino]

I'd suggest those are cultural norms which may or may not be relevant. It's very subjective.

The idea of "losing yourself" is a figure of speech used only when talking about sex in Christendom. Not any other sin. This implies that the sin of fornication would Biblically support losing my pride, losing self respect, losing... whatever. It doesn't.

The Bible might talk about those things regarding sin as a whole, nothing specific to sex... our culture created that, not the Bible.

I agree that Christendom has the sex topic mixed up, but I'm not a cultural relativist, at least not completely. I know that aboriginal tribes before the Western influence had sexual practices that we in the Western world would consider utter abominations, but that is indeed how they did it for a long time.

As a Christian though, you are supposed to discern what God intends in life, whether you believe it to be relative and arbitrary or not, and I had mentioned at least one place already in scripture that describes a woman as being defiled land when she goes off to another man after her husband.

 

[SnowyMacie]

I was having a conversation with my wife about an experience she had in youth group as a young lady. This activity in youth groups was all the rage in the early 90's.

She said the youth pastor would have the girls hold a piece of paper while boys, one by one, would come up and rip a piece off (odd how the boys don't hold the paper).

The youth pastor would then claim that by having sex, girls lose a "piece of themselves". Like, how each boy owned a piece of the paper.

Okay, not only is this story so freaking disturbing and disgusting to me, if it was my daughter that this happened to in the youth group, I can't image how I'd react.

Where the heck is this in the Bible??

Disturbed and disgusted are the appropriate reactions to that story, and if this was my daughter, we'd straight up move churches if our church condoned this shaming practice.

 

[rturner76]

There is, but some Christians do argue over the definition.

You mean as in what specific acts are considered sex?

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

I mean you lose a part of yourself. Its hard to explain

I know exactly what you mean. I think both males and females should value their virginity. It is worth more than all the money in the world. Call me idealistic, but celibacy is also a cherished state for people who commit themselves fully to God.

 

[Tetra]

I agree that Christendom has the sex topic mixed up, but I'm not a cultural relativist, at least not completely. I know that aboriginal tribes before the Western influence had sexual practices that we in the Western world would consider utter abominations, but that is indeed how they did it for a long time.

As a Christian though, you are supposed to discern what God intends in life, whether you believe it to be relative and arbitrary or not, and I had mentioned at least one place already in scripture that describes a woman as being defiled land when she goes off to another man after her husband.

You did provide that scripture, I would need to wrestle with it more to be honest. Off the top of my head, I do think 2000 years ago in the middle east, they highly valued virginity, and adultery could get you stoned. (Leviticus 20:10). I wonder if the culture had simply an strong observance of these things over other sins?

 

[Tetra]

You mean as in what specific acts are considered sex?

Yes, seems some Christians say it means temple prostitution, while others say it refers to pre-marital sex.

 

[Torino]

Tetra,

You know I was thinking for a minute about the cultural and perhaps even individual subjectivity of these things like virginity, etc., and considering what other people groups do and have done (particularly before Western influence) I'd have to agree with you, but there is somewhat of a problem I'm sensing with this, and perhaps you can comment.

Does culture determine truth? That is, is truth relative? And do culturally relative takes on things have any influence over the the biological realities our bodies carry?

 

[Torino]

I can put a context on it, as an example, if you'd like.

 

[Tetra]

Tetra,

You know I was thinking for a minute about the cultural and perhaps even individual subjectivity of these things like virginity, etc., and considering what other people groups do and have done (particularly before Western influence) I'd have to agree with you, but there is somewhat of a problem I'm sensing with this, and perhaps you can comment.

Does culture determine truth? That is, is truth relative? And do culturally relative takes on things have any influence over the the biological realities our bodies carry?

No, truth is not relative.

There are things which are objective.
There are things which are subjective.

Biology would be, if talking about things determined as fact, objectively known.

I think when talking about how we view sex though, we are talking about subjective experiences. One girl may "feel" she lose her respect, some "feel" they have gained respect.

 

[rturner76]

Yes, seems some Christians say it means temple prostitution, while others say it refers to pre-marital sex.

I guess it all must depend on what a person is trying to justify

 

[Tetra]

Separate question for some of you that just came to mind.

Do you ONLY lose a piece of yourself when you have sex out of wedlock, OR, simply sex in general?

 

[Tetra]

I guess it all must depend on what a person is trying to justify

Well, since I've have been married for 14 years, and have no interest in prostitutes... for me, it's neither.

May I ask you a question though? Respectfully, and serious. In my experience, I've never seen anyone use the justification statement on anything other than sex related topics. Like, if I said I was trying to learn the definition of the term related to "kill", in thou shalt not kill. No one ever says, you're trying to justify murdering someone. You know what I mean, why is that?

 

[Torino]

No, truth is not relative.

There are things which are objective.
There are things which are subjective.

Biology would be, if talking about things determined as fact, objectively known.

I think when talking about how we view sex though, we are talking about subjective experiences. One girl may "feel" she lose her respect, some "feel" they have gained respect.

Cool, then we're on the same page as far as truth goes.

Is it possible that a culture could be wrong about a reality? Is it possible that even a subjective experience, say for example, if a girl "feels" she gained or lost something via casual sex that her subjective experience might have no bearing on the truth of the matter?

 

[Torino]

May I ask you a question though? Respectfully, and serious. In my experience, I've never seen anyone use the justification statement on anything other than sex related topics. Like, if I said I was trying to learn the definition of the term related to "kill", in thou shalt not kill. No one ever says, you're trying to justify murdering someone. You know what I mean, why is that?

This wasn't addressed to me, but I have noticed the same over the years. This goes back to the love-hate confusion that much of Christendom has over the issue of sex.

 

[rturner76]

I think when talking about how we view sex though, we are talking about subjective experiences. One girl may "feel" she lose her respect, some "feel" they have gained respect.

I think it's more like one girl thinks she gained respect and twenty five thousand think they lost respect. Iknow plenty of girls who have gained money,a good time,gifts, a ego boost, but very few (I've never met one) gain self respect. Some have said they thought they would but when the guy was done or in the morning, it has the opposite effect. Some even think they have achieved a self respect boost from it only to realize a couple days later it was an illusion

 

[Tetra]

Cool, then we're on the same page as far as truth goes.

Is it possible that a culture could be wrong about a reality? Is it possible that even a subjective experience, say for example, if a girl "feels" she gained or lost something via casual sex that her subjective experience might have no bearing on the truth of the matter?

I would say so. We often think or feel things are true, which may or may not be true... but that's usually related to objectively known things. I don't know if that's how it works with things that are subjective. Can how I taste ice cream for example be right or wrong? (I'm not joking here, just explaining)

I think it's more like one girl thinks she gained respect and twenty five thousand think they lost respect. Iknow plenty of girls who have gained money,a good time,gifts, a ego boost, but very few (I've never met one) gain self respect. Some have said they thought they would but when the guy was done or in the morning, it has the opposite effect. Some even think they have achieved a self respect boost from it only to realize a couple days later it was an illusion

Okay, BUT do they feel that way because culture taught them that? Have we taught girls they lose self respect, OR do they feel that way because they in fact do lose self respect. You see what I mean, I think it's all cultural influence either way.