Seventh Day Adventists

[Eila]

Sorry but it doesn't clear up anything at all. There will be many in the end who are christians who Jesus says will call upon Him in that day and say Lord Lord did we not cast out demons in your name and prophecy in Your Name etc. He will say to them I never knew you. According to everything I can determine these folks fully accepted the gospel of Christ and did many mighty wonders in His name. Today they would be called saved Christians.

Matthew 7 " 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'"

It is an assumption to say that these people referred to here are saved. It is also an assumption to say that these people did prophesy in His name or cast out demons. It doesn't tell us what these people did, but what they claimed to do. It doesn't say that these people were born again, but it does say that He never knew them. If they were saved they would have been known. Also if you look at the texts preceeding these verses - they are talking about false prophets. False prophets may prophecy in the name of Jesus, but are they really prophecying?

So why didn't the Lord know them? Maybe it was because they had a form of godlines ( accepting the gospel ) but denied the power thereof to keep them from sinning, think? Maybe it was because they didn't worry about sinning because they thought works wouldn't make them loose their eternal life.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

I think you are under the assumption that if you don't believe your works are related to your salvation you will go out and sin freely without thought.

While there may be some like that - that is not the way it works. He changes us so we do not desire to do what we used to do. He changes us so that we desire to do His will. He convicts us of sin and molds us into the person He wants us to be.

Do we avoid sin because we fear punishment? Or do we avoid sin so we can please the one who gave so much for us? He is not there ready to yank away our salvation when we mess up. He is there in us guiding us helping us be more like Him.

Grace is a powerful incentive not to sin because the recipiant of grace serves God out of gratitude not out of obligation.

 

[djconklin]

Grace is a powerful incentive not to sin because the recipiant of grace serves God out of gratitude not out of obligation.

That's why when Paul says "love is the fulfilling of the law" we say that love is not legalism. But, no matter how often or loudly we say it we are called liars.

 

[djconklin]

If I consistently choose to knowing break His law then I am endangering my eternal life, especially if I don't confess and repent of it.

But you've already confessed that you break the old covenant law, the measure you wish God to measure you by.

We don't tell God which standard by which we wish to measured by. As our Creator He set the standard. We can either chose to obey Him, like Abel did. Or, we can try to save ourselves by our own rules like Cain did.

 

[freeindeed2]

We don't tell God which standard by which we wish to measured by. As our Creator He set the standard. We can either chose to obey Him, like Abel did. Or, we can try to save ourselves by our own rules like Cain did.

Then why don't you obey the old covenant? Why do you break it? You claim that by the power of Christ you can keep the law, yet you don't! You claim that keeping the law is your response to God's love, yet you break it! Either you keep it or you don't! Either Christ has already provided salvation based on what HE did, or you're left to try and do it yourself.

It is a lie to claim to keep something that you break. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[woobadooba]

Then why don't you obey the old covenant? Why do you break it? You claim that by the power of Christ you can keep the law, yet you don't! You claim that keeping the law is your response to God's love, yet you break it! Either you keep it or you don't! Either Christ has already provided salvation based on what HE did, or you're left to try and do it yourself.

It is a lie to claim to keep something that you break. Wouldn't you agree?

So do you then disagree with what John had said about God's people?

"Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Rev 14:12)

So it appears that it is possible to keep God's commands.

Those who contend that it isn't possible, not only deny the power of God to save them from sin, but they also mock the Holy Scriptures which inform us that they ought to be, and can be kept.

For those who speak against the Holy Word of God in this way, I say to you that it's not an issue of you not being able to keep God's commands; rather, it's an issue of which ones don't you want to keep.

By the way, just because someone says we can keep God's commands, that doesn't suggest that he believes he is saved by keeping them. It is only by the power of God that one could live in obedience to righteousness. Thus it is God all the way. Hence there is no such thing as salvation by human works.

 

[freeindeed2]

So do you then disagree with what John had said about God's people?

"Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Rev 14:12)

I have no problem with what John had to say. Why would there be a problem? Unless you're trying to say that John was referring to the old covenant/10 commandments here. But he doesn't do that in his writings.

So it appears that it is possible to keep God's commands.

Are you claiming you keep the old covenant/10 commandments?

Those who contend that it isn't possible, not only deny the power of God to save them from sin,

Clearly a righteousness by works/law keeping statement. Are you contending that you keep them?

but they also mock the Holy Scriptures which inform us that they ought to be, and can be kept.

Do you keep them? Can you give me a list of people who do not break them?

For those who speak against the Holy Word of God in this way,

Actually, the Word is full of examples of people who have not kept them. Israel never kept the covenant/10 commandments. It was a burden that the Jews at the Jerusalem Council couldn't bear, nor could their fathers. It tells us that no one is good, not even one.

I say to you that it's not an issue of you not being able to keep God's commands;

Again, are you claiming to keep them without breaking them?

rather, it's an issue of which ones don't you want to keep.

I'm not under the law, nor was the law ever given to me. I'm not obligated to it and it has nothing to say to me because Jesus has accomplished the law for me and saved me by his grace.

By the way, just because someone says we can keep God's commands, that doesn't suggest that he believes he is saved by keeping them.

But your whole premise is base on the idea that we still live under the old covenant/10 commandments in the first place. And you also believe you are lost if you do not keep them, while at the same time admitting that you break them. Quite a problem for those who want to be justified by keeping the law.

It is only by the power of God that one could live in obedience to righteousness. Thus it is God all the way. Hence there is no such thing as salvation by human works.

I agree. But if you're equating being righteous with keeping the old covenant/10 commandments, you're in big trouble. If you can be lost by not keeping it you're in big trouble. If Christ did not accomplish the law on your behalf, you're in big trouble.

Salvation comes from Chirst alone. He has credited those who believe in him for salvation with his righteousness. We have right standing with God because of our faith.

I'll be looking forward to seeing your list of people who do not break the old covenant/10 commandments/ministration of death. I'd like to see the evidence for the claim.

 

[woobadooba]

Free,

I am not even going to waste my time responding to your post in detail, because anyone can clearly see what the Holy Word of God has to say about commandment keeping, and you are obviously denying what God's word has to say about it.

Why should anyone bother arguing with you over this?

Furthermore, you don't even take what people say at face value. Instead, you read meaning into what they say, and thus bear false witness against them (this is obvious in your response to me).

I can tell you that I don't believe we are made righteous by human works until I am blue in the face. But you will still insist that I am saying we are made righteous by works simply because I believe God has the power to deliver us from sin.

How you arrive at this conclusion makes absolutely no sense at all, and that is why it is futile to discuss such things with you.

If you weren't a former SDA pastor I would be more patient with you. But you ought to know better than to speak of the Ten Commandments and the Old Covenant as though they are one and the same (meaning you should have been taught how to properly exegete scripture). Moreover, you ought to know better than to deny the fact that the NT makes it very clear that God's people are still required to keep His commandments. There is plenty of evidence in the NT for this. You just simply choose to ignore it.

 

[Eila]

But you ought to know better than to speak of the Ten Commandments and the Old Covenant as though they are one and the same (meaning you should have been taught how to properly exegete scripture).

The Bible refers to the 10 commandments as the covenant.

Exodus 34:28 "Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he ate no bread and drank no water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."

Deut 4:13 " And He declared to you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments, and He wrote them on two tables of stone."

1 Kings 8: 21 "21And there I have provided a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD that he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.""

1 Chronicles 6:11 "And there I have set the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD that he made with the people of Israel."

Hebrews 9 "3Behind the second curtain was a second section[c] called the Most Holy Place, 4having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron's staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant."

Galatians 4 "21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,

"Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband."
28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman." 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman."



2 Corinthians 3 "5Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

12Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."

 

[Eila]

[/color][/color][/size][/color]
I have no problem with what John had to say. Why would there be a problem? Unless you're trying to say that John was referring to the old covenant/10 commandments here. But he doesn't do that in his writings.

I agree John was not referring to the old covenant in Revelation. John himself defined the commandments in the book he wrote - 1 John.

1 John 3 "19By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24Whoever keeps his commandments abides in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us."

 

[woobadooba]

The Bible refers to the 10 commandments as the covenant.

Exodus 34:28 "Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he ate no bread and drank no water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."

Deut 4:13 " And He declared to you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments, and He wrote them on two tables of stone."

1 Kings 8: 21 "21And there I have provided a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD that he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.""

1 Chronicles 6:11 "And there I have set the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD that he made with the people of Israel."

Hebrews 9 "3Behind the second curtain was a second section[c] called the Most Holy Place, 4having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron's staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant."

Galatians 4 "21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,

"Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband."
28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman." 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman."



2 Corinthians 3 "5Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

12Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."

Eila,

The proof-text method does not constitute good exegesis. You can make the Bible look like it says all kinds of things that it really isn't saying by taking certain phraseology out of its proper context.

Truth is, one has to identify what a 'covenant' is before rendering such conclusions as you and Free have in stating that the Old Covenant is the Ten Commandments.

Now it is true that the Ten Commandments had something to do with the Old Covenant; but they are not in essence the Old Covenant.

In fact, even dictionary.com makes this quite clear in defining a covenant within the context of the Bible:

a.the conditional promises made to humanity by God, as revealed in Scripture. b.the agreement between God and the ancient Israelites, in which God promised to protect them if they kept His law and were faithful to Him.

 

[woobadooba]

I agree John was not referring to the old covenant in Revelation. John himself defined the commandments in the book he wrote - 1 John.

1 John 3 "19By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24Whoever keeps his commandments abides in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us."

Once again you are taking scripture out of context!

It was also John who said,
"By this we know that we love the children of God, whenever we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome."
(1Jn 5:2-3)

It is quite obvious that John is speaking of the Ten Commandments here.

Notice how it says, "Love God and keep His commandments".

It is a general rule that when the Bible speaks of the 'commandments of God' it is referring to the Ten Commandments.

 

[Eila]

Eila,

The proof-text method does not constitute good exegesis. You can make the Bible look like it says all kinds of things that it really isn't saying by taking certain phraseology out of its proper context.

Put it in the context. It doesn't change the Bible saying that the covenant was inside the ark of the covenant. It doesn't change that the Bible says the 10 commandments were the words of the covenant.

Truth is, one has to identify what a 'covenant' is before rendering such conclusions as you and Free have in stating that the Old Covenant is the Ten Commandments.

Now it is true that the Ten Commandments had something to do with the Old Covenant; but they are not in essence the Old Covenant.

In fact, even dictionary.com makes this quite clear in defining a covenant within the context of the Bible:

a.the conditional promises made to humanity by God, as revealed in Scripture. b.the agreement between God and the ancient Israelites, in which God promised to protect them if they kept His law and were faithful to Him.

The covenant was the agreement written down. Please show me from the Bible that the covenant was not the 10 commandments or the law of Moses. I gave you direct quotes from the Bible that said exactly what the 10 commandments were.

 

[woobadooba]

The covenant was the agreement written down. Please show me from the Bible that the covenant was not the 10 commandments or the law of Moses. I gave you direct quotes from the Bible that said exactly what the 10 commandments were.

I have something better for you:

"but this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, says Jehovah, I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." (Jer 31:33)

When God speaks of His "Law" here, what is He referring to?

You say the law has been done away with. If so, how could there be a "Law" left to place within someone's heart?

And I have another question for you...

What is it about the Ten Commandments that you despise so much that you are so adamant about declaring them to be obsolete?

 

[Eila]

Once again you are taking scripture out of context!

It was also John who said,
"By this we know that we love the children of God, whenever we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome."
(1Jn 5:2-3)

It is quite obvious that John is speaking of the Ten Commandments here.

Notice how it says, "Love God and keep His commandments".

It doesn't say to love God. It says when we love God. Saying it says love God and keep His commandments totally changes the meaning.


If you put the 1 John 5 quote in context....

1 John 4 "13By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 John 5 "1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6This is he who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. 9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life."

Here in 1 John 5 he mentions commandments. In last part of 1 John 4 he mentions 1 command that he had already mentioned in 1 John 3. Also in 1 John 5 he talks about the command to believe in Jesus which also goes along with the command in 1 John 3. There is nothing anywhere here to suggest that this is talking about the 10 commandments.

It is a general rule that when the Bible speaks of the 'commandments of God' it is referring to the Ten Commandments.

What do you base that belief on?

Certainly not on verses like this...Deut 30 " If you obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law, and if you turn to the Lord your God with all your [mind and] heart and with all your being."

 

[woobadooba]

Eila,

Just in case you missed it...

I have something better for you:

"but this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, says Jehovah, I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." (Jer 31:33)

When God speaks of His "Law" here, what is He referring to?

You say the law has been done away with. If so, how could there be a "Law" left to place within someone's heart?

And I have another question for you...

What is it about the Ten Commandments that you despise so much that you are so adamant about declaring them to be obsolete?

 

[Eila]

I have something better for you:

"but this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, says Jehovah, I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." (Jer 31:33)

When God speaks of His "Law" here, what is He referring to?

The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

You say the law has been done away with. If so, how could there be a "Law" left to place within someone's heart?

The old covenant law has not been abolished, but fulfilled. God doesn't write the ministry of death on our hearts, but the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

And I have another question for you...

What is it about the Ten Commandments that you despise so much that you are so adamant about declaring them to be obsolete?

Despise? I'm not sure that is the right word. The law had glory, but what we have now is far more glorious. The law condemns and as long as anyone puts themself under the law of condemnation they will struggle with sin. And I believe anyone holding up the old covenant as required to maintain right-standing has a veiled view of the Gospel.

 

[woobadooba]

It doesn't say to love God. It says when we love God. Saying it says love God and keep His commandments totally changes the meaning.

Perhaps you can tell me what aspect of the Ten Commandments has nothing to do with love for God???

 

[Eila]

Perhaps you can tell me what aspect of the Ten Commandments has nothing to do with love for God???

1 John 5 wasn't talking about the 10 commandments.

1 John 5 doesn't say to love God, but when we love God. There is a big difference.

The old covenant law commanded love, the new covenant law does not. In the new covenant we love Him because He first loved us and filled us up with His love.

 

[woobadooba]

The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

So what part of the Ten Commandments has nothing to do with what Jesus Christ expects of us?

Despise? I'm not sure that is the right word. The law had glory, but what we have now is far more glorious. The law condemns and as long as anyone puts themself under the law of condemnation they will struggle with sin. And I believe anyone holding up the old covenant as required to maintain right-standing has a veiled view of the Gospel.

The 'Law' condemns the sinner; but manifests itself within the lives of those who truly belong to Christ.

 

[woobadooba]

1 John 5 wasn't talking about the 10 commandments.

1 John 5 doesn't say to love God, but when we love God. There is a big difference.

The old covenant law commanded love, the new covenant law does not. In the new covenant we love Him because He first loved us and filled us up with His love.

Why are you avoiding my question?

Again:

What aspect of the Ten Commandments has nothing to do with love for God?