Seventh Day Adventists

[Eila]

PURE UNMITIGATED BUNK! Anyone going to any of our schools would know that. We even had a student (one that I know of) from another denomination attending our seminary at Andrews.

Not bunk. I didn't question it at the time because I was SDA, but our class assignments in the Gospels class was to read EGW and fill in the answers to questions. I went to 2 SDA colleges. I'm not making this up and no - I will not name names. If you want to search it out it was one of the colleges listed in my profile and I believe the professor was the head of the religion department if I remember correctly.

 

[Eila]

I had a lady friend who was a teacher and I helped her prepare for class and grade the papers--there was NO such thing as a "SDA curriculum." The schools MUST teach certain things per state rules--but, that was it.

Yes, there is such a thing as SDA curriculum. I'm not sure what it is like for college, but there is a specific Bible curriculum for elementary students. I was talking about this with a family member who used to teach in SDA schools and I asked what Bible curriculum was used and the answer was the Adventist curriculum.

 

[Your Neighbor]

Yes, there is such a thing as SDA curriculum. I'm not sure what it is like for college, but there is a specific Bible curriculum for elementary students.

And high school. A person in my household taught at an academy in 2004-2006. This doesn't mean Bible teachers like it or use it exclusively.

 

[freeindeed2]

Not bunk. I didn't question it at the time because I was SDA, but our class assignments in the Gospels class was to read EGW and fill in the answers to questions. I went to 2 SDA colleges. I'm not making this up and no - I will not name names. If you want to search it out it was one of the colleges listed in my profile and I believe the professor was the head of the religion department if I remember correctly.

I taught Bible classes in 3 different academies and was on the committee that put together the curriculum for the academies. EGW is an essential element of the curriculum, and in fact, when her writings are not promoted enough pressure is put on the Bible teachers (especially) for not making her writings a focus in the classroom. In one of the conferences I worked at it was mandated that the teachers (elementary and academy) made a conserted effort to focus students on her writings.

 

[djconklin]

All schools have a curriculum. What does not exist is a specific one for all SDA schools. For instance, when teaching reading they'll say these are the books you use for the course and that's it--the teacher has to decide what will be taught out of those books. The same things happens when you go to any school.

What is very interesting is that the critics typically have all these bizarre "experiences" which no one can corroborate. It's all hear-say but we're supposed to buy into it as if it was the gospel truth--like the one about EGW being threatened with a lawsuit over one of her books--the funny thing is that the authors/publishers denied it! Just recently a guy tried to tell me that the Library of Congress wouldn't let one of EGW's books into the library because of the alleged "plagiarisms" in it. I looked up the Library of Congress web site and found how to search for the book and lo and behold! they had about a dozen copies!

 

[freeindeed2]

All schools have a curriculum. What does not exist is a specific one for all SDA schools. For instance, when teaching reading they'll say these are the books you use for the course and that's it--the teacher has to decide what will be taught out of those books. The same things happens when you go to any school.

While this may be true with some subjects, such as English or History, for the most part the academy Bible curriculum is standard across the board. The curriculum I taught from in one place is the same (books) that are taught in another. In fact, I had to attend national SDA Bible conferences where all the Bible teachers get together and meet in order to corroborate how the books are to be used. The last one I attended was in Pittsburg, PA with several hundred Bible teachers present. The Bible curriculum is not left up to the individual teacher like it might be in other subjects.

 

[winslow]

Jim,

I'm sure it is difficult to understand in your shoes. I know you believe what you believe with 100% of your being. I praise God that He used the SDA church to bring you to Him.

In most instances, people who have left the SDA church due to doctrinal issues have not left suddenly. For me it was a period of 8 years so it was anything but suddenly.

I think one of the bigger issues regarding EGW is that she is viewed as equal to the Bible or some view the Bible as inspired as her - in other words the level of inspiration is viewed as comparable. I realize not all SDAs believe that, but I would say a great deal do.

I do find that the major issues with the IJ are twofold. To accept the IJ you must believe that the atonement was incomplete when Jesus ascended to His Father. Also, it has Jesus examining our works to see if we are worthy for heaven which is a works-based salvation. To me those are not small things - but major things.

But the reason I left the SDA church in the first place was not because of those things because I didn't accept the incomplete atonement or the inspiration of EGW and was an SDA many years with those beliefs. I left because of the remnant status and the belief that SDAs needed to make Christians into SDAs so they would be saved in the end times.

Actually the IJ points to the justice of the Lord. How he can declare (some)sinners righteous while others (unrepentant) are condemned. It is not about our works, it is about God's grace. It is not works that saves it is the faith that lead to works (as a natural by product of entering into a saving relationship with Jesus). Unfortunately many people do not understand the true nature of the IJ doctrine. I am not talking only about those that reject it, many that do accept it enter into a legalistic relationship which gives a "false witness".

 

[Eila]

Actually the IJ points to the justice of the Lord. How he can declare (some)sinners righteous while others (unrepentant) are condemned. It is not about our works, it is about God's grace.

God by definition is just. He cannot be anything but just and He has nothing to prove to me or your or anyone. His ways are just. How can He declare some righteous and some condemned? All are condemned without Jesus because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All those who come to Jesus are righteous because they receive His righteousness as a gift. There is no examination of works to see who is and who is not saved.

 

[winslow]

There is no examination of works to see who is and who is not saved.

That is exactly the misunderstanding I am talking about. It is not an examination to see who is and who is not saved.



Investigative judgment as Part of the Program of God

In view of the principles here set forth, it seems to us abundantly clear that the acceptance of Christ at conversion does not seal a person's destiny. His life record after conversion is also important. A man may go back on his repentance, or by careless inattention let slip the very life he has espoused. Nor can it be said that a man's record is closed when he comes to the end of his days. He is responsible for his influence during life, and is just as surely responsible for his evil influence after he is dead. To quote the words of the poet, "The evil that men do lives after them," leaving a trail of sin to be charged to the account. In order to be just, it would seem that God would need to take all these things into account in the judgment.

That there should be a judgment is not strange; the Scriptures reveal it as part of the eternal purpose of God (Acts 17:31), and all His ways are just. Were God alone concerned, there would be no need of an investigation of the life records of men in this judgment, for as our eternal Sovereign God, He is omniscient. He knows the end from the beginning. Even before the creation of the world He knew man would sin and that he would need a Saviour. Moreover, as Sovereign God, He also knows just who will accept and who will reject His "great salvation" (Heb. 2:3).
421 If God alone were concerned, there would certainly be no need of records. But that the inhabitants of the whole universe, the good and evil angels, and all who have ever lived on this earth might understand His love and His justice, the life history of every individual who has ever lived on the earth has been recorded, and in the judgment these records will be disclosed—for every man will be judged according to what is revealed in "the books" of record (Dan. 7:10; Rev. 20:12).

God's love and justice have been challenged by Satan and his hosts. The archdeceiver and enemy of all righteousness has made it appear that God is unjust.

Therefore in infinite wisdom God has determined to resolve every doubt forever. He does this by making bare before the entire universe the full story of sin, its inception and its history. It will then be apparent why He as the God of love and of justice must ultimately reject the impenitent, who have allied themselves with the forces of rebellion.

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/qod/q36.htm

 

[Eila]

That is exactly the misunderstanding I am talking about. It is not an examination to see who is and who is not saved.

There is no judgment of works to determine why someone is or is not saved. Works don't save. Works don't make you lost.

Investigative judgment as Part of the Program of God

In view of the principles here set forth, it seems to us abundantly clear that the acceptance of Christ at conversion does not seal a person's destiny. His life record after conversion is also important. A man may go back on his repentance, or by careless inattention let slip the very life he has espoused. Nor can it be said that a man's record is closed when he comes to the end of his days. He is responsible for his influence during life, and is just as surely responsible for his evil influence after he is dead. To quote the words of the poet, "The evil that men do lives after them," leaving a trail of sin to be charged to the account. In order to be just, it would seem that God would need to take all these things into account in the judgment.

Judgment for what? What is He judging people for?

That there should be a judgment is not strange; the Scriptures reveal it as part of the eternal purpose of God (Acts 17:31), and all His ways are just. Were God alone concerned, there would be no need of an investigation of the life records of men in this judgment, for as our eternal Sovereign God, He is omniscient. He knows the end from the beginning. Even before the creation of the world He knew man would sin and that he would need a Saviour. Moreover, as Sovereign God, He also knows just who will accept and who will reject His "great salvation" (Heb. 2:3).
421 If God alone were concerned, there would certainly be no need of records. But that the inhabitants of the whole universe, the good and evil angels, and all who have ever lived on this earth might understand His love and His justice, the life history of every individual who has ever lived on the earth has been recorded, and in the judgment these records will be disclosed—for every man will be judged according to what is revealed in "the books" of record (Dan. 7:10; Rev. 20:12).

So you are saying that in order for us to trust God's decisions we must hear all the dirty stories of those that were lost?

God's love and justice have been challenged by Satan and his hosts. The archdeceiver and enemy of all righteousness has made it appear that God is unjust.

Therefore in infinite wisdom God has determined to resolve every doubt forever. He does this by making bare before the entire universe the full story of sin, its inception and its history. It will then be apparent why He as the God of love and of justice must ultimately reject the impenitent, who have allied themselves with the forces of rebellion.

So in order for us to trust God and know that He is a God of love and justice we must know the sins of the lost?

How has Satan made it appear that God is unjust? Do you believe God is unjust? If God doesn't tell you all the sins of someone who is lost will you think He is unjust?

Watching or hearing R rated stories will convince us that God is just? No, God is the definition of just. He has nothing to prove to you or me or Satan or the angels or anyone. He is God.

Settling out doubts? Why would a saint doubt God's judgments anyway? Do we trust in God or not?

 

[djconklin]

The Bible curriculum is not left up to the individual teacher like it might be in other subjects.

Simply because you are told which book you will use does not mean that the daily curriculum is all laid out for the teacher. Nor, does it dictate what you will teach about the Bible. They do not tell you that you WILL teach specific doctrines, etc..

 

[djconklin]

Works don't make you lost.

Hmm, the Bible says that "the wages of sin is death." Sure sounds lost to me.

If not then you don't need to be saved and you don't need a Savior. I'm real glad that the SDA church taught me both!

 

[freeindeed2]

Simply because you are told which book you will use does not mean that the daily curriculum is all laid out for the teacher. Nor, does it dictate what you will teach about the Bible. They do not tell you that you WILL teach specific doctrines, etc..

The daily curriculum is laid out for the teacher, especially in the 9th and 10th grade books. It even tells them how many days should be spent on each lesson.

For 11th grade they are required to cover the 27 Fundamenal Beliefs (one of 5 books), and Daniel & Revelation. They tell you exactly what you will teach. This is not to say that a teacher doesn't have the latitude to bring other things into the classroom, but it is made clear that they must cover the curriculum.

In one conference I was in the conference president spelled out exactly what was to be taught and by what date it was to be taught by. Personal letters went from his office to each Bible teacher just to make sure.

I'm not aware of any conferences that do not use the SDA Bible curriculum in their academies. I know, personally, many of the Bible teachers around the country as we would meet at conferences and talk on the phone about strategies for what works and what doesn't in presenting the SDA curriculum in the classroom.

 

[Jimlarmore]

There is no judgment of works to determine why someone is or is not saved. Works don't save. Works don't make you lost.

This is definetely a once saved always saved philosophy which has no support Biblically. The Bible makes it very clear that we can go back to our sins and be held accountable in the end for them. Works may not save us but they sure can cost us our eternal salvation. Especially if we don't confess and repent of them.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

This is definetely a once saved always saved philosophy which has no support Biblically. The Bible makes it very clear that we can go back to our sins and be held accountable in the end for them. Works may not save us but they sure can cost us our eternal salvation. Especially if we don't confess and repent of them.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Then, by default, you believe in righteousness by works. How can you say we 'may' not be saved by our works, then turn around and say we can be lost by works? That's an oxymoron.

Are you familiar with Morrie Venden? I've had this discussion with him, and in his book Righteousness By Faith--Apologies to Martin Luther, one of his thesis statements is this: Good works don't cause us to be saved. Bad works don't cause us to be lost. This is what you say you don't believe and claim is not Biblical, yet one of your own SDA theologians, author, and pastor says otherwise. How do you reconcile your position?

In the same book he also establishes that confession and repentance are not something that we do (not our works), but we experience them when they come from God. However, it sounds like you see them as being your own 'works' (something that YOU do), which again, by default, means you would believe in righteousness by works since you must 'do' them in order to be saved.

So, do you agree or disagree with Venden?

 

[Jimlarmore]

Then, by default, you believe in righteousness by works. How can you say we 'may' not be saved by our works, then turn around and say we can be lost by works? That's an oxymoron.

No it's not. The Bible makes it clear that those who will be lost are those who practice bad works and will be judged by them. It makes no sense at all to say I am saved by grace and then go out and sin with impunity. We may not be slaves to sin and are not saved by our works but we are slaves to righteousness and to a loving Saviour that is crucified afresh every time we sin. Sin is defined as the transgression of the law and we cannot sin without some kind of sinful work that violates God's law or to do what we know to be right.

In the same book he also establishes that confession and repentance are not something that we do (not our works), but we experience them when they come from God. However, it sounds like you see them as being your own 'works' (something that YOU do), which again, by default, means you would believe in righteousness by works since you must 'do' them in order to be saved.

So, do you agree or disagree with Venden?

Our confession may be prompted by the Holy Spirit but God does not force it upon us so yes it is our work to confess and repent. Otherwise, we loose our free will.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

No it's not. The Bible makes it clear that those who will be lost are those who practice bad works and will be judged by them. It makes no sense at all to say I am saved by grace and then go out and sin with impunity. We may not be slaves to sin and are not saved by our works but we are slaves to righteousness and to a loving Saviour that is crucified afresh every time we sin. Sin is defined as the transgression of the law and we cannot sin without some kind of sinful work that violates God's law or to do what we know to be right.

It doesn't matter how you break this down, it's salvation by law keeping. And yet you've admitted multiple times that you violate the very law you're claiming to keep. Are you saved? If you are will you still be tomorrow? What about next week? Month? Year? What if you've forgotten about a few sins and didn't confess and repent of each one individually (righteousness by works)? Where is your security? Do you not believe that Jesus 'destroyed sins power' in your life, as Paul said he did? Do you not believe you're under the new covenant, that he has 'forgiven our iniquity and remembers our sins no more'?

Our confession may be prompted by the Holy Spirit but God does not force it upon us so yes it is our work to confess and repent. Otherwise, we loose our free will.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

So you disagree with Venden? I noticed you didn't even address the first thesis statement (Good works don't cause us to be saved. Bad works don't cause us to be lost.)

Ah, yes. The cherished 'free will' that placed a death sentence on all our heads by perfectly created humans with no sin nature touching the fruit. Human 'will' doesn't have a very good track record, wouldn't you agree? And yet you want to cling to your own will rather than submitting it to God's will. It's just like clinging to the law which only condemns you because you aren't keeping it.

So let me get this straight:
We aren't saved by our works.
But we are lost by bad works.
If we commit a bad work we must produce the works of confession and repentance out of our own 'free will' in order to regain right standing with God.
And we must do this for each and every bad work ever committed in the past, present, and future.
Before we engage in these works (confession and repentance) we are lost.
But we aren't saved by those works (confession and repentance).
But if we don't do them we're lost.
But we aren't saved by them...

And the cycle repeats itself every time we commit a bad work. Over and over again.

Lost.
Saved.
Lost.
Saved.
Lost.
Saved.

It would be really bad to 'do' this every day of your life, trying to keep track of all your sin, and then get to the coming of Christ and he says, "Well Jim. I'm sorry to inform you of this, but you never confessed and repented of that one time you had a flash of anger cross your mind toward Freeindeed (hypothetically, of course ). We were hoping you'd remember it and confess and repent of it so that you could be saved, but you never did. You remembered to confess and repent each and every time you didn't honor your father and mother throughout your life, but not that one instance where you were angry at your brother. I'm afraid I'm going to have to burn you for that one. You're guilty of murder. Sorry. That's the rules. Next!"

It's amazing how Satan has invented ways to get us to focus on our sin rather than on the Savior.

 

[Eila]

Hmm, the Bible says that "the wages of sin is death." Sure sounds lost to me.

If not then you don't need to be saved and you don't need a Savior. I'm real glad that the SDA church taught me both!

I didn't say the wages of sin were not death. The wages of sin is spiritual death and all people are born spiritually dead. I said works don't make you lost. All people are born with a sin nature. Even if they lived perfectly it would not be good enough. Christ has already reconciled the world to Himself and He is not counting their sins against them. The only thing keeping someone from salvation is accepting Christ. Spiritually dead men need to be made alive in Christ. A person's sins don't make them lost - they are lost because they have a sin nature and do not have righteousness from God.

2 Corinthians 5 "18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

John 3 "6"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. "

Why is a person condemned? Because of their sins? No - because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[Eila]

This is definetely a once saved always saved philosophy which has no support Biblically. The Bible makes it very clear that we can go back to our sins and be held accountable in the end for them. Works may not save us but they sure can cost us our eternal salvation. Especially if we don't confess and repent of them.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

You keep saying that I believe once saved always saved. I do not.

If works can cost us our eternal savation then you are saved by works. The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith. Faith and works are not the same thing. Faith leads to works, but faith is not works.

Colossians 1 " 21And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister."

We are presented holy and blameless before God as long as we continue in the faith - in the hope of the Gospel. Not as long as we keep ourselves free from sin. If your salvation hinges on whether or not you are sinless you are in trouble. We obtain salvation by grace through faith and we hold on to salvation by grace through faith. If you mix works in that equation then it is not the Gospel. If you are lost by your works then you have not received the righteousness of God.

Romans 1 "16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith.""

Romans 3 " 21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it-- 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law."

Phillipians 3 "8Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--"

2 Peter 1 "1Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:"

Salvation is by faith and not by works. Saying you are lost by works is saying that you works save you.




Romans 4 "16Therefore, [inheriting] the promise is the outcome of faith and depends [entirely] on faith, in order that it might be given as an act of grace (unmerited favor), to make it stable and valid and guaranteed to all his descendants--not only to the devotees and adherents of the Law, but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, who is [thus] the father of us all."

 

[Eila]

We may not be slaves to sin and are not saved by our works but we are slaves to righteousness and to a loving Saviour that is crucified afresh every time we sin. Sin is defined as the transgression of the law and we cannot sin without some kind of sinful work that violates God's law or to do what we know to be right.

Hebrews 6 "4For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. "

Where does it say that our sins crucify the Lord afresh? In Hebrews 6 it says that restoring those who have fallen away would be crucifying the Lord afresh.

Also, where does it say that sin is transgresson of the 10 commandment law? The last I knew the commands listed in that very chapter were to believe on Jesus and love one another.