Seventh Day Adventists

[freeindeed2]

You keep saying that I believe once saved always saved. I do not.

If works can cost us our eternal savation then you are saved by works. The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith. Faith and works are not the same thing. Faith leads to works, but faith is not works.

Colossians 1 " 21And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister."

We are presented holy and blameless before God as long as we continue in the faith - in the hope of the Gospel. Not as long as we keep ourselves free from sin. If your salvation hinges on whether or not you are sinless you are in trouble. We obtain salvation by grace through faith and we hold on to salvation by grace through faith. If you mix works in that equation then it is not the Gospel. If you are lost by your works then you have not received the righteousness of God.

Romans 1 "16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith.""

Romans 3 " 21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it-- 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law."

Phillipians 3 "8Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--"

2 Peter 1 "1Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:"

Salvation is by faith and not by works. Saying you are lost by works is saying that you works save you.




Romans 4 "16Therefore, [inheriting] the promise is the outcome of faith and depends [entirely] on faith, in order that it might be given as an act of grace (unmerited favor), to make it stable and valid and guaranteed to all his descendants--not only to the devotees and adherents of the Law, but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, who is [thus] the father of us all."

Amen! Well said.

 

[Jimlarmore]

You keep saying that I believe once saved always saved. I do not.

Yes you do , you just don't realize it. You say exactly the same thing baptists say concerning salvation, i.e. if you were really saved you wouldn't go back to sin. I was a baptist once upon a time. Then some say that since we are not under the law we cannot sin by breaking the law. Either way you fall within that catagory. BTW, remember we don't keep the law TO BE SAVED we keep the law by the power of Christ BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED.

If works can cost us our eternal savation then you are saved by works. The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith. Faith and works are not the same thing. Faith leads to works, but faith is not works.

The Bible also says that faith without works is dead. You can't be saved without working a good work for the Lord. If you can turn from the Lord by your personal decisions and be lost then you have to do that by a work of some kind even if it's a mental one.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Eila]

Yes you do , you just don't realize it. You say exactly the same thing baptists say concerning salvation, i.e. if you were really saved you wouldn't go back to sin.

Again, I do not believe OSAS. I have never held the postion that if you were really saved you wouldn't go back to sin. Did you read what I quoted from the Bible? We are saved as long as we continue in faith! How is that OSAS? It appears as though your definintion of OSAS is someone who does not believe we are saved by our works or lost by our works instead of "once saved always saved".

I was a baptist once upon a time. Then some say that since we are not under the law we cannot sin by breaking the law. Either way you fall within that catagory. BTW, remember we don't keep the law TO BE SAVED we keep the law by the power of Christ BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED.

So if you don't keep the law to be saved then why would breaking the law cost you your salvation? What credit is there to you in trying to keep the law?

The Bible also says that faith without works is dead. You can't be saved without working a good work for the Lord. If you can turn from the Lord by your personal decisions and be lost then you have to do that by a work of some kind even if it's a mental one.

A person who was once saved can reject Christ. I do believe we have free will to do that. However, Hebrews 6 gives a strong warning regarding those individuals.

Faith produces works. Dead faith isn't faith.

 

[freeindeed2]

BTW, remember we don't keep the law TO BE SAVED we keep the law by the power of Christ BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED.

And you've stated that you break the law. So do you not have the 'power of Christ'?

 

[Jimlarmore]

And you've stated that you break the law. So do you not have the 'power of Christ'?

I am righteous by faith in my savior and am covered by His grace. Yes I do sin but not intentionally and when I know I have sinned I confess it and ask the Lord to forgive me. I was born into this nature but I know I have a choice to make whether to serve the Lord or not. If I consistently choose to knowing break His law then I am endangering my eternal life, especially if I don't confess and repent of it.

God Bless
Jim

 

[Jimlarmore]

Again, I do not believe OSAS. I have never held the postion that if you were really saved you wouldn't go back to sin. Did you read what I quoted from the Bible? We are saved as long as we continue in faith! How is that OSAS? It appears as though your definintion of OSAS is someone who does not believe we are saved by our works or lost by our works instead of "once saved always saved".

You speak in circles. On one side of your mouth you say nothing you do will cause you to be lost then on the other side of you mouth you say you can turn away and reject Christ. Just what do you consider rejecting and turning away from Christ anyway?


God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Eila]

You speak in circles. On one side of your mouth you say nothing you do will cause you to be lost then on the other side of you mouth you say you can turn away and reject Christ. Just what do you consider rejecting and turning away from Christ anyway?


God Bless
Jim Larmore

I think I see your confusion. Rejecting and turning away from Christ is rejecting the Gospel - no longer believing in Jesus as your Savior. Maybe that clears the issue up?

 

[Eila]

Yes I do sin but not intentionally and when I know I have sinned I confess it and ask the Lord to forgive me. I was born into this nature but I know I have a choice to make whether to serve the Lord or not.

I don't undestand how someone with the Spirit living in them can sin unintentionally. Christians have to go against their new nature to sin.

 

[Jon0388g]

Eila, do you believe that a spiritually born again Christian can, in the end, be lost?

Jon

 

[Eila]

Eila, do you believe that a spiritually born again Christian can, in the end, be lost?

Jon

Yes, but I think we disagree on how the person can be lost.

Someone who is alive in Christ - no. Someone who has rejected Christ and no longer believes in Him - yes.

There are people who were once strong Christians and then later became athiests. I would say they would be lost because they no longer believe in Jesus. I wouldn't say that those who were once strong Christians were never really saved in the first place.

 

[Jon0388g]

Yes, but I think we disagree on how the person can be lost.

Someone who is alive in Christ - no. Someone who has rejected Christ and no longer believes in Him - yes.

There are people who were once strong Christians and then later became athiests. I would say they would be lost because they no longer believe in Jesus. I wouldn't say that those who were once strong Christians were never really saved in the first place.

Is not believing in Christ a sin?


Jon

 

[Eila]

Is not believing in Christ a sin?


Jon

Yes, why do you ask?

 

[Jon0388g]

Yes, why do you ask?

So, this is the only sin that causes us to be lost?

Sorry, it's just sometimes your line of thought confuses me.


Jon

 

[freeindeed2]

I am righteous by faith in my savior and am covered by His grace.

Good so far.

Yes I do sin but not intentionally and when I know I have sinned I confess it and ask the Lord to forgive me.

But you have said repeatedly that Christ gives you the power to keep the law. So how is it that you 'unintentionally' sin still if you believe that the power of Christ enables you to keep the law? Is there even such a thing as 'unintentional' sin?

I was born into this nature but I know I have a choice to make whether to serve the Lord or not.

Right. You were born with a sin nature before you even thought your first thought. And now you're saying that you are saved by making choices (by your own actions still). That's still righteousness by works, not the blood of Christ. You're still taking credit for salvation by choosing Christ (not being chosen by Christ).

How does your law keeping (which you don't actually do) rectify your sin nature?

If I consistently choose to knowing break His law then I am endangering my eternal life, especially if I don't confess and repent of it.

But you've already confessed that you break the old covenant law, the measure you wish God to measure you by. You're spinning in circles, in and out of salvation, and there is no security or guarantee if it's left up to you.

 

[Eila]

So, this is the only sin that causes us to be lost?

Sorry, it's just sometimes your line of thought confuses me.


Jon

Yes.

John 3 "18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

If somone is not born again and made alive in Christ they are lost. When you are made alive in Christ your sins do not change your "alive" status because that status is a gift from God by grace through faith alone. We receive His life in our spirit.

1 John 5 '7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. 9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."

 

[freeindeed2]

Yes, but I think we disagree on how the person can be lost.

Someone who is alive in Christ - no. Someone who has rejected Christ and no longer believes in Him - yes.

There are people who were once strong Christians and then later became athiests. I would say they would be lost because they no longer believe in Jesus. I wouldn't say that those who were once strong Christians were never really saved in the first place.

I guess my question is, is Jesus true to his promise in being 'faithful to complete the work he has begun in us'? We may percieve that a person has 'fallen away', but do we really know? Do we know their heart? Aren't we only looking at outward appearances? Is the promise true?

 

[Jon0388g]

Yes.

John 3 "18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

If somone is not born again and made alive in Christ they are lost. When you are made alive in Christ your sins do not change your "alive" status because that status is a gift from God by grace through faith alone. We receive His life in our spirit.

1 John 5 '7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. 9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."

Ok. Thanks for your opinion.



Jon

 

[Jimlarmore]

I think I see your confusion. Rejecting and turning away from Christ is rejecting the Gospel - no longer believing in Jesus as your Savior. Maybe that clears the issue up?

Sorry but it doesn't clear up anything at all. There will be many in the end who are christians who Jesus says will call upon Him in that day and say Lord Lord did we not cast out demons in your name and prophecy in Your Name etc. He will say to them I never knew you. According to everything I can determine these folks fully accepted the gospel of Christ and did many mighty wonders in His name. Today they would be called saved Christians. So why didn't the Lord know them? Maybe it was because they had a form of godlines ( accepting the gospel ) but denied the power thereof to keep them from sinning, think? Maybe it was because they didn't worry about sinning because they thought works wouldn't make them loose their eternal life.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

I'm outta here folks have a great memorial day weekend. Don't eat too much fried chicken or veggie burger

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Eila]

I guess my question is, is Jesus true to his promise in being 'faithful to complete the work he has begun in us'? We may percieve that a person has 'fallen away', but do we really know? Do we know their heart? Aren't we only looking at outward appearances? Is the promise true?

Yes, He is faithful. When someone is born again the work is complete. Their actions slowly change as God changes them.

No, we don't really know the heart. I know of one person who was claiming to be an athiest, but later found out he was mad at God.

I do believe a person can be lost once they have been born again. It is not an easy thing to do, but Hebrews 6 as well as a few other passages mention that it is possible.