Seventh-day Adventists and the Torah on the heart.

[tall73]

This thread is looking at the Seventh-day Adventist version of the law written on the heart. Any may participate in the discussion.

What is the torah on the heart mentioned in Jeremiah?

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law (Torah) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I would love to discuss this with you, Tall.

However, if it turns into a Former Adventist dog-pile, I'm outta here, just so we're clear.

Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law (towrah) is within my heart.

 

[TrustAndObey]

In Hebrews 10, the wording of verse 15 and 16 is basically the same as in Jeremiah 31:33 (see example below)1. In the Hebrew language (used in Jeremiah), the word for law is “towrah”, but in the Hebrews 10 sister verse, the Greek word “nomos” is used.

Nomos and towrah both mean “instruction”, “law”, and “direction”.

That would most definitely include the Ten Commandments:

Greek…….Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law (nomos)?

But certainly isn’t limited to the Ten Commandments on stone.

I believe that is why Christ was very specific about the fact that some laws had to be fulfilled and some laws would have an end.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me.

Luke 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in Me, And He was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning Me have an end.

I looked up the word translated to “the things concerning” in Luke 22:37 and the word was “peri” which means: about, concerning, on account of, because of, around, near.

That could certainly cover laws (since He was reckoning with the transgressors and He talks about the Law of Moses), prophesies (He fulfilled all prophesies concerning Him from the Old Testament since those were the only words “written” at that time), and future events. The future events must be fulfilled and will never have to happen again (therefore having an “end&#8221.

God’s instruction was written on our hearts. Anything that pointed to Christ or His first coming was fulfilled and ended, which is clear earlier in chapter 10 of Hebrews where it talks about sacrifices.

Something that was recently pointed out to me that I think is of particular importance to this discussion is that in Colossians 2, “Which ARE a shadow of things to come” (v 17) is present tense….long after the cross.

I am quite confident that God’s instructions have been written on our hearts, but I have yet to have anyone show me how all the laws written on stone or how all laws in the Book of the Law pointed to Christ. I’m not sure how the food laws pointed to Him or how tithing pointed to Him, etc.

He expounded on the laws written on stone in the New Testament, never once stating that He was doing so to fulfill or end them (in fact, He said the opposite).

So what is your idea of what the towrah written on the heart is?

1Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

 

[TrustAndObey]

Abraham kept the towrah, long before Moses, in Genesis 26:5.

 

[Adventtruth]

Abraham kept the towrah, long before Moses, in Genesis 26:5.

The torah came into existence under Moses. Your statement is none sence.

AT

 

[TrustAndObey]

The torah came into existence under Moses. Your statement is none sence.

AT

I respectfully disagree.

Here's a copy of the verse in its original language:

 

[TrustAndObey]

Towrah is the same word used in Jeremiah 31:33 which is what Tall is asking about.

 

[TrustAndObey]

How is that nonsense Sir?

 

[Adventtruth]

This thread is looking at the Seventh-day Adventist version of the law written on the heart. Any may participate in the discussion.

What is the torah on the heart mentioned in Jeremiah?

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law (Torah) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Adventist teaching teaches that its the ten commandment law that is written on the heart. But this is far from the truth. If the ten commandment law is written there, why? Why write it there if its weak through the flesh? Human nature is utterly weakend by sin to the very core, that the law can not help it. Human nature is incapable of fulfilling the law in that state. The law has no weakness. It is human nature that has the weakness, and thus the law is left with no power to render man as righteous. Thus it is said to be weak through the flesh

(Rom 7:21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
(Rom 7:22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:


The law that is written upon mans heart is just as the above passage says, the desire to do, and the desire FOR the righteousness of the law. This desire comes from the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.


(Rom 8:2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
(Rom 8:3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(Rom 8:4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.



Those who have the Spirit of life in Christ have the righteous requirements of the law fulfilled in them, not by our doing, tho we do follow the Spirit, but by Christs life and blood for us.



AT

 

[TrustAndObey]

Adventtruth, Tall asked for Seventh-day Adventists to answer his question.

Either that's what is going to happen here or I will leave.

I just proved that the torah (towrah) includes the Ten Commandments (in my second post of this thread). It includes any laws that God commanded and expected His people to keep.

I also showed how Jesus Himself told us the laws concerning Him (Jesus) would be fulfilled and END.

"Thou shalt not commit adultery" did not point to Christ. In fact, He added to it and said that even lust was breaking it. Is that fulfilling that law and ending it?

You provided absolutely no scriptural support of what towrah or nomos was written on our hearts. That is Tall's question.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Abraham kept the commandments (mitsvah) and towrah before Moses. The scriptures prove that.

 

[Adventtruth]

Towrah is the same word used in Jeremiah 31:33 which is what Tall is asking about.

You qualified your statement by saying

Abraham kept the towrah, long before Moses, in Genesis 26:5.

As if Abraham was under the same covenant of law as Moses.

AT

 

[Sophia7]

Adventtruth, Tall asked for Seventh-day Adventists to answer his question.

Either that's what is going to happen here or I will leave.

Tall said that anyone may participate:

This thread is looking at the Seventh-day Adventist version of the law written on the heart. Any may participate in the discussion.

 

[TrustAndObey]

You qualified your statement by saying

As if Abraham was under the same covenant of law as Moses.

You're getting off-topic, but Abraham also kept the mitsvah and from what I've seen of the use of that word, it ALWAYS refers to God's commandments which He later wrote on stone.

The covenant from Mt. Sinai was a commanded covenant. I have no reason to believe it didn't exist before Mt. Sinai. In fact, we know the Sabbath commandment (also called a mitsvah in Genesis 16:28) was given before Mt. Sinai.

There are several differnt covenants mentioned in scripture. Different ones and different types.

Now can we please stay on topic to the OP?

 

[Adventtruth]

Adventtruth, Tall asked for Seventh-day Adventists to answer his question.

Either that's what is going to happen here or I will leave.

If I understood the OP correctly, he said any may participate.

I just proved that the torah (towrah) includes the Ten Commandments (in my second post of this thread). It includes any laws that God commanded and expected His people to keep.

You only proved that you think Abraham was under the same law...that they where one and the same law.

I also showed how Jesus Himself told us the laws concerning Him (Jesus) would be fulfilled and END.

"Thou shalt not commit adultery" did not point to Christ. In fact, He added to it and said that even lust was breaking it. Is that fulfilling that law and ending it?

Did the following verse include all law or parts of the law in your opinion?

(Gal 3:24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(Gal 3:25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

You provided absolutely no scriptural support of what towrah or nomos was written on our hearts. That is Tall's question.

Well then answer this question...Why is the ten commandments written on your heart?

AT

 

[TrustAndObey]

Tall said that anyone may participate:

And that's fine, but he wanted to know what Adventists believe and Adventtruth just misrepresented the Adventist view.

If it turns into a "former" dog-pile on me I will leave. I just wanted to participate with the Adventist view since that's the thread title.

 

[TrustAndObey]

If I understood the OP correctly, he said any may participate.

I'm okay with that AT, but please don't misrepresent the Adventist view on the Torah written on the heart.

You only proved that you think Abraham was under the same law...that they where one and the same law.

It's not that I think he was AT. The Bible says Abraham kept the towrah.

Did the following verse include all law or parts of the law in your opinion?

(Gal 3:24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(Gal 3:25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

I already said, some of the laws concerned Christ specifically and those are the ones that had to be fulfilled and have an end. Galatians isn't in contradiction of that fact.

Well then answer this question...Why is the ten commandments written on your heart?

You'll have to ask God that question, but they're part of the towrah so I know they were.

 

[Adventtruth]

[/color]

You're getting off-topic, but Abraham also kept the mitsvah and from what I've seen of the use of that word, it ALWAYS refers to God's commandments which He later wrote on stone.

But you failed to understand this was not always the case with Abraham. His standing and salvation before God was not centered on how much he obeyed...correct?

The covenant from Mt. Sinai was a commanded covenant. I have no reason to believe it didn't exist before Mt. Sinai. In fact, we know the Sabbath commandment (also called a mitsvah in Genesis 16:28) was given before Mt. Sinai.[/quote]

The bible tells us that that particular covenant (Mosaic) did not exist before Sinai. It also tells us that they (Israel) learned of the Sabbath commandment law in the wilderness of sin.

(Exo 16:1) And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt.

(Exo 16:23) And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
(Exo 16:24) And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
(Exo 16:25) And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
(Exo 16:26) Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
(Exo 16:27) And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
(Exo 16:28) And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
(Exo 16:29) See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
(Exo 16:30) So the people rested on the seventh day.

There are several differnt covenants mentioned in scripture. Different ones and different types.

Now can we please stay on topic to the OP?

Sure

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

[/color]

I'm okay with that AT, but please don't misrepresent the Adventist view on the Torah written on the heart.

How am I misrepresenting that view? I said in my first posting that Adventist teaching says the ten commandments are written on the heart. Is that not true?

It's not that I think he was AT. The Bible says Abraham kept the towrah.

But you have this idea that Abraham kept them without breaking them. Thats not the bible meaning of the word "kept" in that passage nor the meaning of the passage. Abraham was a lier and adulterer...true?

I already said, some of the laws concerned Christ specifically and those are the ones that had to be fulfilled and have an end. Galatians isn't in contradiction of that fact.

It is most certainly in contradiction to you if you teach and believe that Galatians is talking about some of the law and not all of the law. Your prophet EGW even says its all the law.

You'll have to ask God that question, but they're part of the towrah so I know they were.

Ok let me ask this...Why was the law given?

AT

 

[TrustAndObey]

But you failed to understand this was not always the case with Abraham. His standing and salvation before God was not centered on how much he obeyed...correct?

God had a covenant with Abraham (Gen 17:9) that would include his seed after him. Jacob, Abraham's son, became Israel (Gen 32:28), and it was the children of Israel (Jacob) that were freed from Egypt.

The bible tells us that that particular covenant (Mosaic) did not exist before Sinai. It also tells us that they (Israel) learned of the Sabbath commandment law in the wilderness of sin.

(Exo 16:1) And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt.

(Exo 16:23) And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
(Exo 16:24) And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
(Exo 16:25) And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
(Exo 16:26) Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
(Exo 16:27) And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
(Exo 16:28) And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
(Exo 16:29) See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
(Exo 16:30) So the people rested on the seventh day.

Notice in verse 28 that "commandments" is mitsvah (which Abraham kept) and "laws" is towrah (which Abraham kept).


If you can prove it was a different set of commandments and a different towrah, that'd be great, but Genesis 26:5 is the very first mention of 1) commandments 2) statutes and 3) laws, so I don't think you'll be able to.

We also know that God's covenant with Abraham would include Abraham's offspring and that is Israel and the children of Israel.