Seventh-day Adventists and the Torah on the heart.

[TrustAndObey]

How am I misrepresenting that view? I said in my first posting that Adventist teaching says the ten commandments are written on the heart. Is that not true?

It's not just the Ten Commandments though. It's the towrah which INCLUDES the Ten Commandments but is certainly not limited to the Ten Commandments.

But you have this idea that Abraham kept them without breaking them. Thats not the bible meaning of the word "kept" in that passage nor the meaning of the passage. Abraham was a lier and adulterer...true?

AT, David was a murderer and God still loved him.

David said: Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.

We have to confess and repent for our sins in order to be cleansed of unrighteousness.

It is most certainly in contradiction to you if you teach and believe that Galatians is talking about some of the law and not all of the law. Your prophet EGW even says its all the law.

If EGW was a prophetess, then she was GOD'S prophetess and not mine. That was rude.

I've never read any of her books, and I came to my own conclusions about scripture before I ever joined the Adventist church.

Can you debate scripture without the personal insults please?

Jesus HIMSELF said some laws would end and others would not....

Jesus is the only Teacher I've ever seen that people say came to teach us something so we wouldn't have to do it ourselves later.

Why do people teach anything? It's so you will learn it yourself.

Ok let me ask this...Why was the law given?

It's God's will for His people.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Some laws were added because of transgression (Gal 3:19), and those laws (sacrifices, yearly atonement, etc), were nailed to the cross.

The Ten Commandments didn't point to Christ. He taught them and lived them and told us to keep them.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Circumcision is in the towrah, and the first time it's mentioned (that we see as readers of scripture) is to Abraham.

 

[Adventtruth]

[/color]

God had a covenant with Abraham (Gen 17:9) that would include his seed after him. Jacob, Abraham's son, became Israel (Gen 32:28), and it was the children of Israel (Jacob) that were freed from Egypt.

And what was that covenant meantioned in that passage?

Notice in verse 28 that "commandments" is mitsvah (which Abraham kept) and "laws" is towrah (which Abraham kept).

Ok...but did Abraham ever break the torah? Kindly answer that please.

If you can prove it was a different set of commandments and a different towrah, that'd be great, but Genesis 26:5 is the very first mention of 1) commandments 2) statutes and 3) laws, so I don't think you'll be able to.

What is the point of your argument. Torah merely means law. The Bible says Abraham kept, and by kept it means that Abraham was an observer of Gods law, that is, he understood and sought after righteous living. That is the point of the passage. Not as you think that he did every thing righteous. Abraham was a sinner just like you and I.

We also know that God's covenant with Abraham would include Abraham's offspring and that is Israel and the children of Israel.

And your point please?


AT

 

[Adventtruth]

[/color][/color][/size][/font]

It's not just the Ten Commandments though. It's the towrah which INCLUDES the Ten Commandments but is certainly not limited to the Ten Commandments.

So know you are teaching that all 613 laws where written on the heart?



AT, David was a murderer and God still loved him.

David said: Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.

We have to confess and repent for our sins in order to be cleansed of unrighteousness.[/quote]

So if you don't confess your a sin, will you be lost?

If EGW was a prophetess, then she was GOD'S prophetess and not mine. That was rude.

I've never read any of her books, and I came to my own conclusions about scripture before I ever joined the Adventist church.

Can you debate scripture without the personal insults please?

I was not being rude. EGW was a prophet to the Adventist Church. You are of the Adventist church are'nt you? If so she is your prophet. But just the same, I apologize if you where hurt by that remark.

Jesus HIMSELF said some laws would end and others would not....

Jesus is the only Teacher I've ever seen that people say came to teach us something so we wouldn't have to do it ourselves later.

So how do you understand the following passage?

(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(Rom 7:5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
(Rom 7:6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


AT

 

[TrustAndObey]

And what was that covenant meantioned in that passage?

A covenant that there would be another covenant! (Gen 17:19) and that all of Abraham's seed should be circumcised (which was in the....towrah). The covenant to follow included Abraham's seed (Israel) and that one never ends (Gen 17:19).

We're Abraham's seed, through Christ.

Ok...but did Abraham ever break the torah? Kindly answer that please.

For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. God said Abraham "kept" the commandments, statutes and the laws. Did he do it perfectly? I doubt it, but he was a humble man before God and God was obviously very pleased with him. I don't question that.

What is the point of your argument. Torah merely means law.

To answer Tall's question.

Did you read my second post in this thread? In the Hebrew language "towrah" is used in Jeremiah 31:33 and in the Greek sister verse in Hebrews 10 "nomos" is used. Both include the Ten Commandments (which I showed from scripture).

Towrah and nomos mean "law", "direction", and "instruction". That direction and instruction included the Ten Commandments.

The Bible says Abraham kept, and by kept it means that Abraham was an observer of Gods law, that is, he understood and sought after righteous living. That is the point of the passage. Not as you think that he did every thing righteous. Abraham was a sinner just like you and I.

Looks like even trying to seek a righteous life is pretty okay with God!!

And your point please?

I thought it was pretty clear. Abraham's seed inherited the covenant....Abraham's seed is Israel and the children of Israel.

Lots of covenants and lots of different kinds.

Abraham kept the towrah before Moses. That was my point.

 

[TrustAndObey]

So know you are teaching that all 613 laws where written on the heart?

It's frustrating when people don't read what I write.

Ordinances were nailed to the cross, if they pointed to Christ (Luke 22:37 & Luke 24:44). Anything in the Law of Moses, the prophets, or the psalms pointing to Christ had to be fulfilled and end.

So if you don't confess your a sin, will you be lost?

I rarely ever speculate...I usually let scripture speak for itself so I don't look like the "bad guy".

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Confession is how we're cleansed of unrighteousness, through the blood of Jesus Christ.

1Jo 1:19 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 1:29-32 says some pretty harsh things about unrighteousness.

I don't think we'd be told to confess our sins in order to be cleansed, if there was some huge mystery about which laws we were transgressing.

I was not being rude. EGW was a prophet to the Adventist Church. You are of the Adventist church are'nt you? If so she is your prophet. But just the same, I apologize if you where hurt by that remark.

Thanks, I wasn't really hurt by it but the tone was going into the "bad place" of chatness. I'd like to keep this civil..

If someone is a prophet, they are a prophet to the people of God. I know a lot of Messianic Jews that believe Ellen White was inspired...so no, she wasn't a prophet to the Adventist church.

So how do you understand the following passage?

(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(Rom 7:5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
(Rom 7:6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


AT

Serving is serving...there's just different ways to do it now. For instance, we don't have to sacrifice animals anymore (towrah) for the atonement of sin, we can't stone each other anymore (towrah), etc etc.

The things in the law concerning Christ had to be fulfilled and end.

The law on stone didn't point to Him. In fact, in Colossians 2 it says that the Sabbath commandment is a shadow of things to come...present tense, AFTER the cross. Shadows are a good thing.

There were different covenants in scripture, but God's law on stone is eternal. It's in the ark of the covenant in heaven....eternal.

Some people will be judged by the book of the law as well because they had to keep the parts of it that pointed to Christ (before His first coming). We don't have to. Our Savior is risen!

 

[TrustAndObey]

Where is Tall anyway?

 

[TrustAndObey]

(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(Rom 7:5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
(Rom 7:6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


AT

AT, do you think the people that were God's before Jesus could be saved without keeping the law, and without atoning for their sins through sacrifice?

 

[Adventtruth]

[/color][/color][/size][/font]

A covenant that there would be another covenant! (Gen 17:19) and that all of Abraham's seed should be circumcised (which was in the....towrah). The covenant to follow included Abraham's seed (Israel) and that one never ends (Gen 17:19).

We're Abraham's seed, through Christ.

Actually according to the context it was a covenant of circumcision, the promise of Cannan to him and his people, and the Christ, thus making it an everlasting covenant.

For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. God said Abraham "kept" the commandments, statutes and the laws. Did he do it perfectly? I doubt it, but he was a humble man before God and God was obviously very pleased with him. I don't question that.

But was God pleased becasue of Abrahams performance or was He pleased before Abraham was called?

To answer Tall's question.

Did you read my second post in this thread? In the Hebrew language "towrah" is used in Jeremiah 31:33 and in the Greek sister verse in Hebrews 10 "nomos" is used. Both include the Ten Commandments (which I showed from scripture).

Towrah and nomos mean "law", "direction", and "instruction". That direction and instruction included the Ten Commandments.

Ok once again...torah is translated law, thats it. Kindly show me that Abraham followed the ten commandments. We know he had law, but where does it say the ten commandments. Where does it say Abraham was a sabbath keeper? Where does it say Abraham followed after law to perform it. Or are you just assuming here?



Looks like even trying to seek a righteous life is pretty okay with God!!

Only if its of God...agreed?



I thought it was pretty clear. Abraham's seed inherited the covenant....Abraham's seed is Israel and the children of Israel.

Lots of covenants and lots of different kinds.

Abraham kept the towrah before Moses. That was my point.

Well what about the children of Faith?

And if you are still saying Abraham kept the ten commandment law including the sabbath, I would love tosee your scripture.

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

It's frustrating when people don't read what I write.

Ordinances were nailed to the cross, if they pointed to Christ (Luke 22:37 & Luke 24:44). Anything in the Law of Moses, the prophets, or the psalms pointing to Christ had to be fulfilled and end.

So are you teaching that only those that dirrectly pointed to Christ ended for the believer? Is it still ok to stone people today?

I rarely ever speculate...I usually let scripture speak for itself so I don't look like the "bad guy".

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Confession is how we're cleansed of unrighteousness, through the blood of Jesus Christ.

1Jo 1:19 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 1:29-32 says some pretty harsh things about unrighteousness.

I don't think we'd be told to confess our sins in order to be cleansed, if there was some huge mystery about which laws we were transgressing.

But your proof texting does not say that you are lost if you don't confess all of your sins. Are you all confessed up today? Does this not begin to be salvation by doing something?

If someone is a prophet, they are a prophet to the people of God. I know a lot of Messianic Jews that believe Ellen White was inspired...so no, she wasn't a prophet to the Adventist church.

But thats not what the SDA church says.

Official statement on the role of EGW's writings from the 1995 SDA General Conference in Utrecht, Netherlands, from the official SDA website (red color added for emphasis) …
A Statement of Confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy
We, the delegates assembled in Utrecht for the fifty-sixth session of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, express praise and thanksgiving to God for His gracious gift of the Spirit of Prophecy.
In Revelation 12, John the Revelator identifies the church in the last days as the "remnant . . . which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (verse 17). We believe that in this brief prophetic picture the Revelator is describing the Seventh-day Adventist Church, which not only keeps "the commandments of God" but has "the testimony of Jesus Christ," which is "the spirit of prophecy" (Revelation 19:10).
In the life and ministry of Ellen G White (1827-1915), we see God's promise fulfilled to provide the remnant church with the "spirit of prophecy." Although Ellen G White did not claim the title "prophet," we believe she did the work of a prophet, and more. She said: "My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there" (Selected Messages, Book One, p 36); "If others call me by that name [prophetess], I have no controversy with them" (ibid., p 34); "My work includes much more than this name signifies. I regard myself as a messenger, entrusted by the Lord with messages for His people" (ibid., p 36).
Ellen G White's chief burden was to direct attention to the Holy Scriptures. She wrote: "Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light" (Review and Herald, January 20, 1903). She believed that although her writings are a "lesser light," they are light, and that the source of this light is God.
As Seventh-day Adventists, we believe that "in His Word God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience" (The Great Controversy, p 7). We consider the biblical canon closed. However, we also believe, as did Ellen G White's contemporaries, that her writings carry divine authority, both for godly living and for doctrine. Therefore, we recommend:
1) That as a church we seek the power of the Holy Spirit to apply to our lives more fully the inspired counsel contained in the writings of Ellen G White, and
2) That we make increased efforts to publish and circulate these writings throughout the world.
This statement was approved and voted by the General Conference session in Utrecht, the Netherlands, June 30, 1995.

Serving is serving...there's just different ways to do it now. For instance, we don't have to sacrifice animals anymore (towrah) for the atonement of sin, we can't stone each other anymore (towrah), etc etc.

But above you said if it pointed to Chirst it ended...how did stoning point to Chirst? It seems you don't want to believe what the bible says in Galatians or in Romans 7.

The things in the law concerning Christ had to be fulfilled and end.

But thats not what Galatians says.

(Gal 3:11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
(Gal 3:12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
(Gal 3:13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(Gal 3:19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(Gal 3:20) Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
(Gal 3:21)Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
(Gal 3:22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(Gal 3:23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
(Gal 3:24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(Gal 3:25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

These passages are not talking about parts of the law. Its talking about all of the law for the believer. Why do you pick and choose when the bible makes no such distinction?

The law on stone didn't point to Him.

Thats a direct contradiction of scripture. It pointed directly to Christ becasue you could not fulfill its promise. Read the following scripture.

(Gal 3:24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
(Gal 3:25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

What you are doing is in direct contradiction to that passage.

In fact, in Colossians 2 it says that the Sabbath commandment is a shadow of things to come...present tense, AFTER the cross. Shadows are a good thing.

And Christ has come...rendering the Sabbath a shadow...OBTW...The Sabbath pointed directly to CHrist who fulfilled it perfectly.

]There were different covenants in scripture, but God's law on stone is eternal.

To be Eternal means that it had no begining and has no end so the law on stone is not eternal seeing that it had a begining and a ending. Read the following passage and tell me if the law on stone is eternal. Heres the begining...it was given 430 years after the covenant given to Abraham.

(Gal 3:17) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


Heres the ending

(Gal 3:19) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Did you get that? It was Added becasue of transgressions and ended when Christ came. So how is that eternal?

It's in the ark of the covenant in heaven....eternal.

So are believers judged by the law? IF not what is its purpose?

Some people will be judged by the book of the law as well because they had to keep the parts of it that pointed to Christ (before His first coming). We don't have to. Our Savior is risen!

What!!! So you don't thiink Old Covenant saints have been judged in Christ? Scripture please

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

AT, do you think the people that were God's before Jesus could be saved without keeping the law, and without atoning for their sins through sacrifice?

All who saw in the sacrifices as pointing to the one who would be the Christ where saved just as you and I are saved...BY FAITH ALONE. While they may have promised to do all the law commanded, and to observe it, none of them ever kept the law, and besides, the law was weak through the flesh, but those who trusted where saved. IF a man believes in The righteousness that is outside of Him, but stands in his place before God, then that person has not sin imputed to him and is totally free of all charges of sin. Its not about you and your works performance

(Rom 4:4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(Rom 4:5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(Rom 4:6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
(Rom 4:7)Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
(Rom 4:8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


AT

 

[TrustAndObey]

Actually according to the context it was a covenant of circumcision, the promise of Cannan to him and his people, and the Christ, thus making it an everlasting covenant.

There’s actually a lot to the covenant…Abraham and his seeds’ circumcision, circumcision at eight days old to any males born after that…..Sarai’s name change…she would be a mother of nations…..a son for Abraham and Sarah and his name shall be called Isaac….and the covenant would be with him (Isaac) as well, etc.

Isaac had Jacob and Esau….Jacob later became Israel. The children of Israel were God’s people.

Exodus 2:2 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob (Israel).

Israel inherited the promise….and the covenant on Mt. Sinai was a commanded covenant after years and years in captivity, I think it makes perfect sense that the will of God through His law was around way before Sinai (which is already obvious from Exodus 16).

God’s covenant with Abraham was a promised covenant. Some covenants are commanded by God, some are agreed upon between people, etc. There are several different kinds.

Abraham received a promised covenant BECAUSE (Gen 26:5)

By the way….the Hebrew word ‘eqeb (translated to “because” in that verse) means consequence and reward. Abraham was rewarded for keeping the commandments and towrah!

Was it not the children of Israel (Jacob) at the bottom of Mt, Sinai, after being held in bondage for so long?

But was God pleased becasue of Abrahams performance or was He pleased before Abraham was called?

Hey, it was God that said Abraham kept the commandments, statutes, and laws, and Genesis 26:4 says:

And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 25 BECAUSE (‘eqeb) that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The most important part about it, whether you think Abraham kept them or not (even though God said he did), is that they were around before Sinai, and before Moses.

It’s a lot like the clean and unclean animals that we (as readers of scripture) don’t find out about until Leviticus…Noah already knew which animals were clean and unclean long before we read about it.

Do laws have to be mentioned in scripture for US to know they existed before that? Didn't these men talk directly with God?

Abraham kept something…..some THINGS rather, that aren’t mentioned in the Bible (for us as readers of scripture) at all before Gen 26:5.

Ok once again...torah is translated law, thats it. Kindly show me that Abraham followed the ten commandments. We know he had law, but where does it say the ten commandments. Where does it say Abraham was a sabbath keeper? Where does it say Abraham followed after law to perform it. Or are you just assuming here?

“Followed after law”? Is that what God said? God said he (Abraham) KEPT it.

Towrah is translated to “law”, “direction” and “instruction”. So is nomos which is the word used in the Greek.

Hebrews 10:16 and Jeremiah 31:33 are sister verses. Read them, they’re almost identical.

I already covered this…..but nomos INCLUDES the ten commandments.

If you just take the New Testament verse of Hebrews 10:16 (which says the same thing as Jeremiah 31:33), then you have to ask….what all does the law (nomos) in that verse include?

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law (NOMOS)?

Greek=Nomos
Hebrew=Towrah

The towrah, without doubt covered the ten commandments and God said Abraham kept it….before Mt. Sinai.

Only if its of God...agreed?

But of course. IS there righteousness outside of God?

Well what about the children of Faith?

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Jesus was a descendent of Abraham…..and remember the covenant was made with Abraham and his “seed”…..

Mat 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

And the beautiful part? Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And if you are still saying Abraham kept the ten commandment law including the sabbath, I would love to see your scripture.

I’ll tell you what….use the original Hebrew language and show me where mitsvah (the word translated in Gen 26:5 to “commandments”) is EVER used in the OT when it’s not specifically talking about God’s commandments that He later put on stone.

In fact, remember when we briefly discussed God saying “how long refuse ye to keep My commandments and my laws?” Commandments in that verse is mitsvah…..and He’s referring to the SABBATH! How did Abraham keep the mitsvah if it wasn't written on stone yet? EASY! God told him to!

(I recommend www.blueletterbible.org if you need a quick way to look up the original Hebrew.)

Also, I know what the commandments and the towrah are, so can you show me, in scripture, where the ones Abraham kept were any different that what His seed did?

Also..…can you show me where Noah was explicitly told in scripture which animals were clean and which animals were unclean before he gathered them for the ark? We (as readers of scripture) read about it much later in scripture…so HOW did Noah know? EASY! God told him!

Why did God not respect Cain’s offering of the land (fruit), but did respect Abel’s offering of an animal (and the animals’ fat)? Where are offerings mention anywhere in scripture before the account of Cain and Abel?

Why was Jacob offering sacrifice up on the mount (Gen 31:54) when it didn’t become written law until much later in scripture?

Do a word search on sacrifice and see how many there were before the towrah was shown to us (as readers of scripture).

Going a little further….were the Colosse Christians? (Col 1:2)…they were heirs to the promise through Christ and Paul told them to keep the Sabbath and not to let any man judge them for it.

In Colossians 2:16-17 Paul refers to the new moon, holydays, food and drink, and the Sabbath and says “which ARE things to COME.”

Look up the original language in that verse and then look at “are” and “come” in verse 17 using the online bible I linked to. Then click on the “tense” button. It was used in present tense….AFTER the first coming of Christ and the cross!! The shadow is of a future event…the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Here, I'll just post it to save you the trouble....

 

[TrustAndObey]

http://img2.putfile.com/main/4/9610232470.jpg

 

[TrustAndObey]

"things to come" was a future event to the Colossians...and that was a very long time after Christ's first coming and death on the cross, so they weren't shadows of THAT.

They're shadows of something that has yet to come....seeing our Savior again!

 

[TrustAndObey]

So are you teaching that only those that dirrectly pointed to Christ ended for the believer? Is it still ok to stone people today?

Are you not READING what I write at all?

Let's see....
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=45896385&postcount=27

Look at the very last part of my post there from THIS thread....I already said we cannot stone each other anymore!

Capital punishment was nailed to the cross!

We can't judge EACH OTHER anymore (Col 2:16)

If you're not going to read what I write then I don't have any desire to waste my time any further.

I have to get to class.

 

[Adventtruth]

There’s actually a lot to the covenant…Abraham and his seeds’ circumcision, circumcision at eight days old to any males born after that…..Sarai’s name change…she would be a mother of nations…..a son for Abraham and Sarah and his name shall be called Isaac….and the covenant would be with him (Isaac) as well, etc.

Isaac had Jacob and Esau….Jacob later became Israel. The children of Israel were God’s people.

Exodus 2:2 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob (Israel).

Israel inherited the promise….and the covenant on Mt. Sinai was a commanded covenant after years and years in captivity, I think it makes perfect sense that the will of God through His law was around way before Sinai (which is already obvious from Exodus 16).

God’s covenant with Abraham was a promised covenant. Some covenants are commanded by God, some are agreed upon between people, etc. There are several different kinds.

Abraham received a promised covenant BECAUSE (Gen 26:5)

You have taken Gen 26:5 out of context. The context suggest that Issac recieved the promise becasue of What Abraham did. Its not saying in that verse that Abraham recieved the promise becasue he obeyed. Scholars know that God Called Abraham before he had ever did anything for God. And that Abraham recieved the promise by faith alone.Those who God Calls He Justifies. Abrahams obedience, imperfect as it was, was a testimony of his faith in God

By the way….the Hebrew word ‘eqeb (translated to “because” in that verse) means consequence and reward. Abraham was rewarded for keeping the commandments and towrah!

I agree here, but do not over look the facts...that same word also means, On account of. We know God promised Abraham that his off spring would inherit the promise. It had to be passed on becasue of Abrahams faith in God to bring those after him into the promise.

Hey, it was God that said Abraham kept the commandments, statutes, and laws, and Genesis 26:4 says:

And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 25 BECAUSE (‘eqeb) that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

But what you are teaching is a works salvation for Abraham if you say he inherited salvation becasue of his performance. Abraham responded to God in faith before he had ever done anything. Concider the following passage please.

(Rom 4:1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
(Rom 4:2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
(Rom 4:3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

It was by faith that God was pleased with Abraham, not becasue of Abrahams deeds, but because Abraham trusted God. Abraham did not always follow after righteouness as can be seen from his lies and adultery.

The most important part about it, whether you think Abraham kept them or not (even though God said he did), is that they were around before Sinai, and before Moses.

My point is Abraham also broke them, thus he never ever kept them in the sence that he did it perfectly. No one has. That passage where he is said to have kept them is not in the absoluteness of the word, but in the fact that he desired to do righteously before God. Lets not read into scripture what is not there. The bible tells us no one out side of Christ is perfect in themselves, and no amount of law keeping will render you perfect and a keeper of it in the absoulte sence of the word.

Do laws have to be mentioned in scripture for US to know they existed before that? Didn't these men talk directly with God?

We know men had laws becsue God manifested His righteousness to them and in them.
(Rom 1:19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
(Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

But to suggest Abraham and the likes observed the Sabbath is pure speculation on your part

Abraham kept something…..some THINGS rather, that aren’t mentioned in the Bible (for us as readers of scripture) at all before Gen 26:5.

If he kept a law that is not mentioned in the bible, I have no idea of knowing what that law is, and neither does you.

“Followed after law”? Is that what God said? God said he (Abraham) KEPT it.

Yes into follow after as to perform them perfectly to merit something. Is that what your idea of "kept" is?

Towrah is translated to “law”, “direction” and “instruction”. So is nomos which is the word used in the Greek.

Hebrews 10:16 and Jeremiah 31:33 are sister verses. Read them, they’re almost identical.

I already covered this…..but nomos INCLUDES the ten commandments.

If you just take the New Testament verse of Hebrews 10:16 (which says the same thing as Jeremiah 31:33), then you have to ask….what all does the law (nomos) in that verse include?

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law (NOMOS)?

Greek=Nomos
Hebrew=Towrah

The towrah, without doubt covered the ten commandments and God said Abraham kept it….before Mt. Sinai.

Your argument falls short. THe word Nomos is also translated law in Romans 8:2 and other places. Are we to assume its the same law? I think not! Besides those two verses you quoted above have another sister verse. Its Hebrews 8:6 - 13 which gives us more light into your argument.

(Heb 8:6) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
(Heb 8:7) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
(Heb 8:8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
(Heb 8:9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
(Heb 8:10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
(Heb 8:11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
(Heb 8:12) For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
(Heb 8:13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Its a New and Better covenant, It proves that the covenant that you are teaching was faultless, this New and better covenant that you reject is not like the one you are teaching, Verse 9 even says its not like the covenant of old that was given to the fathers in the wilderness. He even says your old covenanat law you teach is vanish away.

AT

 

[Adventtruth]

I’ll tell you what….use the original Hebrew language and show me where mitsvah (the word translated in Gen 26:5 to “commandments”) is EVER used in the OT when it’s not specifically talking about God’s commandments that He later put on stone.

You are speculating here. This is a very poor argument. Show me scripture instead of reading what is not there into it.

In fact, remember when we briefly discussed God saying “how long refuse ye to keep My commandments and my laws?” Commandments in that verse is mitsvah…..and He’s referring to the SABBATH! How did Abraham keep the mitsvah if it wasn't written on stone yet? EASY! God told him to!

You are really speculating here with Abraham. You are reading into scripture what is not there. You again have a very weak argument.

](I recommend

www.blueletterbible.org if you need a quick way to look up the original Hebrew.)

Thanks but no thanks. I have my own Christian library full of original languages.

Also, I know what the commandments and the towrah are, so can you show me, in scripture, where the ones Abraham kept were any different that what His seed did?

But you have yet to show me scripture that said Abraham was to do the Sabbath., or that any one was to do the Sabbath Before Moses. All you can come up with is speculation? I've heard all the Adventist arguments. I too was an Advenstist for 20 years.

Also..…can you show me where Noah was explicitly told in scripture which animals were clean and which animals were unclean before he gathered them for the ark? We (as readers of scripture) read about it much later in scripture…so HOW did Noah know? EASY! God told him!

I hate to sound rude but your arguments are still very high schoolish here. All one has to read is Romans 1 to see that manifested His will for those of that time in them and through the light of nature

Why did God not respect Cain’s offering of the land (fruit), but did respect Abel’s offering of an animal (and the animals’ fat)? Where are offerings mention anywhere in scripture before the account of Cain and Abel?

Why was Jacob offering sacrifice up on the mount (Gen 31:54) when it didn’t become written law until much later in scripture?

Do a word search on sacrifice and see how many there were before the towrah was shown to us (as readers of scripture).

Again I point you to Romans 1.

Going a little further….were the Colosse Christians? (Col 1:2)…they were heirs to the promise through Christ and Paul told them to keep the Sabbath and not to let any man judge them for it.

You see here...you have read something into that passage. Paul never said to them to keep the Sabbath. You are again rading into scripture something that is not there.

In Colossians 2:16-17 Paul refers to the new moon, holydays, food and drink, and the Sabbath and says “which ARE things to COME.”

Look up the original language in that verse and then look at “are” and “come” in verse 17 using the online bible I linked to. Then click on the “tense” button. It was used in present tense….AFTER the first coming of Christ and the cross!! The shadow is of a future event…the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Your argument is baseless. He not only said the Sabbath was a shadow, but he also said the new moons and festivals where also shadows along with the meat and drink offerings. Are we to assume that the festivals and new moons are to remain until the second coming of Christ! I think not. Your argumet is broken down.

AT

 

[TrustAndObey]

I don't have time to respond fully right now Adventtruth, but please tell me where Colossians 2:16-17 mentions food and drink OFFERINGS. It just says food and drink.

The exact same food and drink mentioned in other parts of the NT as FOOD. What we eat!

Is it gone too or do we still need it?

As to the feasts question, I have been recently convicted of studying the fall feasts because I don't see where they've been fulfilled.

Now, if you can continue a conversation without ridiculing I'd love to join in, otherwise, I don't have time for this.