Seventh-day Adventists and the Torah on the heart.

[Adventtruth]

I don't have time to respond fully right now Adventtruth, but please tell me where Colossians 2:16-17 mentions food and drink OFFERINGS. It just says food and drink.

Well perhaps it does mean food and drink laws that where contained in the law of Moses, but what it means is not as important as what has happened. And what has happened is the same that happened to the new moons and sabbath. (btw "The" is not in the original language, and is not italicized in the KJ). Verse 16 starts off with therefore, meaning all that had been said of beievers, namely that they are complete in Christ and have no need of the shadows of the old dispensation. No one is to pull them back into the old legalities of the old dispensation by judging them in there new freedoms in Christ away from the food law, holydays, festivals, new moons and sabbath. They are now of the body of Chirst on earth.

As to the feasts question, I have been recently convicted of studying the fall feasts because I don't see where they've been fulfilled.

Now, if you can continue a conversation without ridiculing I'd love to join in, otherwise, I don't have time for this.

I don't think I have been ridiculing you. Perhaps you are a little sinsative. If so let me know and Iwill try to tread a little more lightly

AT

 

[Cribstyl]

This thread is looking at the Seventh-day Adventist version of the law written on the heart. Any may participate in the discussion.

What is the torah on the heart mentioned in Jeremiah?

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law (Torah) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The facts are, the context of Jer 31:34 explains that God will establish a new covenant is reason to consider if the law was in the covenant..

Most protestants (including me) believe that the ten commandments is, or are included in what is called the Old Covenant.
SO, it seem to us that God specified that it wont be the 10 commandments written on the hearts..


Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



I believe that God is able to write on the inward parts of every persons life certain commands tailored for their life, rather than a one size fit all law given through Moses.

Another understanding to consider is this......In the Old Testament, God is address as the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, God of the fathers, The God of the children of Israel. God did not manifest Himself as a personal God to every individual in the past.
Now, through the blood of Jesus Christ we can call Him "FATHER" and allow Him to indwell our hearts. We can have a personal relationship by entering His presence, ("His rest" )
I believe, The law written on our hearts is personal to each person. I believe the Holy Spirit convicts the believers of sin.


Respects to all
CRIB

 

[TrustAndObey]

The facts are, the context of Jer 31:34 explains that God will establish a new covenant is reason to consider if the law was in the covenant..

Most protestants (including me) believe that the ten commandments is, or are included in what is called the Old Covenant.
SO, it seem to us that God specified that it wont be the 10 commandments written on the hearts..


Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



I believe that God is able to write on the inward parts of every persons life certain commands tailored for their life, rather than a one size fit all law given through Moses.

Another understanding to consider is this......In the Old Testament, God is address as the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, God of the fathers, The God of the children of Israel. God did not manifest Himself as a personal God to every individual in the past.
Now, through the blood of Jesus Christ we can call Him "FATHER" and allow Him to indwell our hearts. We can have a personal relationship by entering His presence, ("His rest" )
I believe, The law written on our hearts is personal to each person. I believe the Holy Spirit convicts the believers of sin.


Respects to all
CRIB

I'm going to have to start writing all these answers about the new covenant down. I get a different answer to this question every time I ask it, and I'm not kidding.

But this is definitely the first time I've heard the laws are individually tailored now.

The law in Jeremiah 31:33 is "towrah" in the original language. You think it's a completely different towrah than what was given before?

I'd like to ask you Cribstyl, in Psalm 89, what covenant is it that God says He will never break?

Who broke the first one, God or His people?

 

[Adventtruth]

Trust and Obey.

How do you reconcile Jer 31:33 with Romans 7:4?

AT

 

[TrustAndObey]

Trust and Obey.

How do you reconcile Jer 31:33 with Romans 7:4?

AT

Easy...keep reading....the law (which includes "thou shalt not covet") is HOLY, and JUST, and GOOD.

It's the same thing as saying "the wages of sin is death". Before Paul knew the law he had no idea he was sinning!

It slew him (but not literally). SIN is what worketh death in him.

The commandments aren't what cause death, it's the transgression of them that does.

Did you not read further in the chapter before you asked me this question?

 

[TrustAndObey]

AT, Romans 7 is NOT a good chapter to try and make your point with. In fact, verse 4 that you asked me to "reconcile" is talking about the law "Thou shalt not commit adultery".

Not a good chapter for your point of view at all considering it talks about thou shalt not commit adultery AND thou shalt not covet. I think I read those two commandments somewhere before. ??

 

[Adventtruth]

Easy...keep reading....the law (which includes "thou shalt not covet") is HOLY, and JUST, and GOOD.

It's the same thing as saying "the wages of sin is death". Before Paul knew the law he had no idea he was sinning!

It slew him (but not literally). SIN is what worketh death in him.

The commandments aren't what cause death, it's the transgression of them that does.

Did you not read further in the chapter before you asked me this question?

Yes the law is all those things and you are not. Don't you understand that before you ever broke a command, sin is/was your very core...that acts of sin is a result of your stain of sin? Do you understand that Law pointed to and aroused your sin into action killing you? Don't you understand that law and sin are partners (so to speak) to slay you? I have been readig and studying these things for 20 years.


AT

 

[Adventtruth]

AT, Romans 7 is NOT a good chapter to try and make your point with. In fact, verse 4 that you asked me to "reconcile" is talking about the law "Thou shalt not commit adultery".

Not a good chapter for your point of view at all considering it talks about thou shalt not commit adultery AND thou shalt not covet. I think I read those two commandments somewhere before. ??

Why is it not a good chapter for you? Because you can't reconcile it with your understanding? Perhaps you need to rethink your understnding. You need to reread that verse in context of the chapter. Verse 1-3 is an example of our relationship to God through Christ. Look at how verse 4 starts out with the qualifier "likewise" proving that your relationsionship with Christ is in danger if you are also trying to have a relationship with law.

Released from the Law
1Or do you not know, brothers [fn1] —for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?2Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. [fn2] 3Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
4Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.5For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.6But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

The verses in question are relating to the whole law not just adultry. Paul is stating that believers have been released from the law. This is a hard fact for Advenstist to understand, I know...I wa an Adventist sence 1989. It distroys every thing Advenstist understand about the law. You must first understand that its the whole law that Paulis speaking of. But don't just take my word for it, study that chapter in prayer. Maybe you need some bible helps...do you have any other than the blue letter bible?

I am willing to discuss this with you, but you must lay preconcieved and bias ideas aside first.


AT

 

[Adventtruth]

Now Trust and obey. Think about what you told me in your previous posting and tell me if it makes any sence in light of verse 4?

Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.


It makes no sence at all if its only adultry as you said, but if you look at it in light of the previous vese and verse 4 it all comes together.


At

 

[TrustAndObey]

You mean SENSE?

You don't think there's ANY law for a new covenant believer? None whatsoever AT?

If that's true, you're the first person I've ever heard say that.

 

[Adventtruth]

You mean SENSE?

You don't think there's ANY law for a new covenant believer? None whatsoever AT?

If that's true, you're the first person I've ever heard say that.

Sorry for the mis-spelling. I hope you are not throwing in a Red Herring. I never said there was no law for the believer. But what the bible teaches is that believers are released from the jurisdiction of the law. We are simply dead to it. Being dead we establish law not follow after it. If believers are dead to it them that means we are alive to Christ. So are you going to reply to what I wrote before?

AT

 

[Sophia7]

This thread is looking at the Seventh-day Adventist version of the law written on the heart. Any may participate in the discussion.

What is the torah on the heart mentioned in Jeremiah?

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law (Torah) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Someone at CARM posted a link to an article that I found interesting: New Covenant Theology and the Mosaic Law: A Theological and Exegetical Analysis of Matthew 5:17-20. I think it may help to answer the question about what's written in our hearts under the new covenant.

 

[thecountrydoc]

Mr. Zaspel should be a dancer. He has some beautiful footwork. I also wonder who he is trying to impress with his vocabulary.

The answer to the OP in this thread is really quite simple. God doesn't change. He is the same yesterday, today, tomorrow, and forever. So is His Word and His law. It makes no difference whether they be written by His finger in stone or on the fleshy tables of man's heart.

Respectfully,
Doc

 

[Sophia7]

Mr. Zaspel should be a dancer. He has some beautiful footwork. I also wonder who he is trying to impress with his vocabulary.

The answer to the OP in this thread is really quite simple. God doesn't change. He is the same yesterday, today, tomorrow, and forever. So is His Word and His law. It makes no difference whether they be written by His finger in stone or on the fleshy tables of man's heart.

What if they were given through Moses, 430 years after the promises that God spoke to Abraham (Gal. 3:17)? If God's Law never changes, then why do Adventists not keep the whole thing? The Torah is not just the ten commandments, but that's what Adventists teach is written in our hearts under the new covenant. Then they tack on a few other OT laws as binding on Christians, such as the dietary and tithing regulations, and dismiss the rest of the Law as "ceremonial." It's a very inconsistent view.

 

[TrustAndObey]

What if they were given through Moses, 430 years after the promises that God spoke to Abraham (Gal. 3:17)?

Abraham kept them. Because of that he received the promise and when we accept Christ we become heirs to that promise!

If God's Law never changes, then why do Adventists not keep the whole thing? The Torah is not just the ten commandments, but that's what Adventists teach is written in our hearts under the new covenant.

Well, let's see....we know the ordinances were nailed to the cross and that Jesus told us that whoever is without sin may cast the first stone (so nobody)....and we know that He came to fulfill ONLY the laws that concerned Him (Luke 24:44 & Luke 22:37) and that they would end.

How did the commandments written on stone point to Christ? He LIVED them and taught us how to as well.

He added hate to "thou shalt not murder" and lust to "thou shalt not commit adultery". Are those binding to modern-day Christians?

Then they tack on a few other OT laws as binding on Christians, such as the dietary and tithing regulations, and dismiss the rest of the Law as "ceremonial." It's a very inconsistent view.

Did the food laws concern Christ? Did the tithing laws concern Christ?

I already covered all this in my first and second post.

If you want to see an inconsistent view, ask any former what laws we have to keep now, as Christians.

What laws are in the New Covenant Sophia? What laws should Christians keep?

It's a simple question yet I NEVER get the same answer twice.

 

[woobadooba]

I'm not going to debate.

But I will give a brief answer and then follow it with a question for thought.

The law that God is referring to is love

Now, for the question:

Is there anything in the Ten Commandments that doesn't have anything to do with love?

 

[thecountrydoc]

Sophia you said:

What if they were given through Moses, 430 years after the promises that God spoke to Abraham (Gal. 3:17)? If God's Law never changes, then why do Adventists not keep the whole thing? The Torah is not just the ten commandments, but that's what Adventists teach is written in our hearts under the new covenant. Then they tack on a few other OT laws as binding on Christians, such as the dietary and tithing regulations, and dismiss the rest of the Law as "ceremonial." It's a very inconsistent view.

Sophia you are not alone in not understand these points clearly. I can see that I need to format a multipart study that will explain exactly what consisted of the "Law" both before Siani and after. Also exactly what is the "Law" today. Will this task be time consuming? Yes. Will it clear the way for understanding? I hope so. It has for others.

Respectfully,
Doc

 

[reddogs]

What if they were given through Moses, 430 years after the promises that God spoke to Abraham (Gal. 3:17)? If God's Law never changes, then why do Adventists not keep the whole thing? The Torah is not just the ten commandments, but that's what Adventists teach is written in our hearts under the new covenant. Then they tack on a few other OT laws as binding on Christians, such as the dietary and tithing regulations, and dismiss the rest of the Law as "ceremonial." It's a very inconsistent view.

You miss what is Gods Law, it is to love God and your fellowman. The first 4 showed how to love God, the other 6 showed how to love our fellowman. But the Law was just a basic outline, Christ made this clear when he said you must go beyond even the Pharisees who followed the letter of the law but had no love in them. The Spirit allows us to go to the fullness of Gods law of love, which the prophets tried to teach the people, and Christ tried to show them. Gods law of love never changed, just our understanding as the Spirit writes it in our hearts. Thus we not only remember the seventh day, but we love sharing it, we dont just keep from stealing from or murder our fellowman but love them and share Gods truth with them. The Law made clear what was a transgression from the flesh that lead to death, the Spirit unveils the fullness of what is love to God and each other in our hearts that leads to eternal life, thus the love of Christ is in us and we in His love...


Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Shabbat Shalom, Happy Sabbath everyone, its good to share what is Gods love on the day He made Holy and Sanctified..

 

[Cribstyl]

I'm going to have to start writing all these answers about the new covenant down. I get a different answer to this question every time I ask it, and I'm not kidding.
But this is definitely the first time I've heard the laws are individually tailored now.
The law in Jeremiah 31:33 is "towrah" in the original language. You think it's a completely different towrah than what was given before?

There is a difference in saying "the law" or just saying "law". Without the definitive article (the), "towrah" is not isolated to define the ten commandmants, but rather, the broader law give through Moses.

I'd like to ask you Cribstyl, in Psalm 89, what covenant is it that God says He will never break?

God was speaking about His convenant with David.
2Sa 7:10-16



Ps 89:3 You have said, “I have made a covenant with my chosen one;
I have sworn to David my servant:
4‘I will establish your offspring forever,
and build your throne for all generations.’” Selah

That was the covenant in the text above above.


Jer 33: 19The word of the Lord came to Jeremiah:
20“Thus says the Lord: If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night will not come at their appointed time,
21then also my covenant with David my servant may be broken, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and my covenant with the Levitical priests my ministers.
22As the host of heaven cannot be numbered and the sands of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the offspring of David my servant, and the Levitical priests who minister to me.”

I posted Jer 33 to show that God's covenant with David had always eternal and unconditional. Gods covenant withDavid is aside from anything that David's seed must do to obtain it.

Who broke the first one, God or His people?

Adam broke the first covenant....... God has never broken His covenants.ESV - Hsa 6:7 -But like Adam they transgressed the covenant;
there they dealt faithlessly with me.


YES, By reading Ps 89 you can see that God would punish them when they would stray from His laws and commandmants under the Mosaic covenant. But, the Davidic covenant was God's promise to David. Because the covenant was not dependant on the people keeping the law, God was obligate to put Daviid seed on the throne

Ps 89:
28My steadfast love I will keep for him forever,
and my covenant will stand firm [fn4] for him.
29I will establish his offspring forever
and his throne as the days of the heavens.
30If his children forsake my law
and do not walk according to my rules,
31if they violate my statutes
and do not keep my commandments,
32then I will punish their transgression with the rod
and their iniquity with stripes,
33but I will not remove from him my steadfast love
or be false to my faithfulness.
34I will not violate my covenant
or alter the word that went forth from my lips.
35Once for all I have sworn by my holiness;
I will not lie to David.
36His offspring shall endure forever,
his throne as long as the sun before me.
37Like the moon it shall be established forever,
a faithful witness in the skies.” Selah

CRIB

 

[TrustAndObey]

There is a difference in saying "the law" or just saying "law". Without the definitive article (the), "towrah" is not isolated to define the ten commandmants, but rather, the broader law give through Moses.

What is the word for the definition article "the" in the original Hebrew and Greek?

God was speaking about His convenant with David.
2Sa 7:10-16

Ps 89:3 You have said, “I have made a covenant with my chosen one;
I have sworn to David my servant:
4‘I will establish your offspring forever,
and build your throne for all generations.’” Selah

That was the covenant in the text above above.


Jer 33: 19The word of the Lord came to Jeremiah:
20“Thus says the Lord: If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night will not come at their appointed time,
21then also my covenant with David my servant may be broken, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and my covenant with the Levitical priests my ministers.
22As the host of heaven cannot be numbered and the sands of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the offspring of David my servant, and the Levitical priests who minister to me.”

I posted Jer 33 to show that God's covenant with David had always been what God promised to do for David aside from anything that David's seed must do to obtain it.

Jesus is David's seed and David is Abraham's seed! And WE are Abraham's seed as well!

So you agree there were several different covenants in the OT?

Adam broke the first covenant....... God has never broken His covenants.ESV - Hsa 6:7 -But like Adam they transgressed the covenant;
there they dealt faithlessly with me.

Amen, God has NEVER broken His covenants.

YES, By reading Ps 89 you can see that God would punish them when they would stray from His laws and commandmants under the Mosaic covenant. But, the Davidic covenant was God's promise to David. Because the covenant was not dependant on the people keeping the law, God was obligate to put Daviid seed on the throne

Ps 89:
28My steadfast love I will keep for him forever,
and my covenant will stand firm [fn4] for him.
29I will establish his offspring forever
and his throne as the days of the heavens.
30If his children forsake my law
and do not walk according to my rules,
31if they violate my statutes
and do not keep my commandments,
32then I will punish their transgression with the rod
and their iniquity with stripes,
33but I will not remove from him my steadfast love
or be false to my faithfulness.
34I will not violate my covenant
or alter the word that went forth from my lips.
35Once for all I have sworn by my holiness;
I will not lie to David.
36His offspring shall endure forever,
his throne as long as the sun before me.
37Like the moon it shall be established forever,
a faithful witness in the skies.” Selah

You just quoted scripture that SAYS they had to keep the commandments and the statutes yet you say they didn't have to? Punishment is punishment.

David's covenant included the commandments and statutes....surprisingly, most covenants DO!