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Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

BobRyan

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it was actually the White Estate who published this letter to their website. .

They made a decision to make documents available that were never published (diaries, letters to friends and family etc) - for reasons that are not entirely clear. But one thing is for certain - the White Estate did not get a message from God to do it so it was their own off the cuff move.

The point remains - when God gives a message to a prophet - the entire point is to publish it for those He directs it to... That is the reason there are prophets - as it turns out.

The Bible is pretty instructive in that regard.
 
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BobRyan

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So the question is why did Bob want to downplay this statement?

Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scapegoat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.

Another statement she never published? Hmm how surprising that I would be more interested in what God tells His prophets to publish for His church - as compared to "everything they said at the breakfast table".
 
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BobRyan

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From whom are the sins blotted out?

Sins are recorded in the books of heaven and these are being reviewed in the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment going on now. They are blotted out from those books when the case of a given individual comes up , is reviewed and it is found that they are a true born-again Christian.
 
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BobRyan

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If the office of apostle has ceased, then how can you use Ephesians 4:11 to say that the office of prophet must continue on?[

If you take the time to actually read the post you just replied to - it is in the text of that post. Are you asking me to post it "again"? was there something unclear in the text of my post addressing that very point??
 
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tall73

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They made a decision to make documents available that were never published (diaries, letters to friends and family etc) - for reasons that are not entirely clear. But one thing is for certain - the White Estate did not get a message from God to do it so it was their own off the cuff move.

The point remains - when God gives a message to a prophet - the entire point is to publish it for those He directs it to... That is the reason there are prophets - as it turns out.

The Bible is pretty instructive in that regard.

Well this is interesting Bob! You are saying there were times when Ellen White said that she was shown, that she saw, that the angel said, etc. and it was not inspired? And you know this because it was not published?

Lt 8, 1850

In this she says:

The Lord showed me that...

Then the Lord showed me...

...and I was taken off in vision, a little of which I will write you.

I saw the powers of darkness were rising....

Said the angel, as he pointed to Israel...

I saw when God worked through Moses...

I saw the same work was now going on...

I saw the power of the magicians....

I saw we must be constantly rising.....

I saw singing to the glory of God...

I saw there was too little glorifying God...

I asked the angel why...

Said he, Ye let go of the promises of God too quick....

I was then pointed to Elijah...

I saw we had doubted...

I saw enchantment was all around...

Said the angel, “Have faith in God.”

I saw some tried too hard to believe....

I saw they must look away from self....
 
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BobRyan

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In the story in Leviticus 16, the goat stays in the wilderness. That's the last we hear of it.

It is sent away according to Lev 16.

Satan does not stay in the abyss.

In Lev 16 one of them is a sin offering the other is not -- which is the point. When you see the term "The goat of the sin offering" in Lev 16 it is specifically not the scapegoat.

Yet the scapegoat does have all the sins confessed over it and is sent away from the camp of the saints. Satan never returns to harass the saints after his part in Rev 19 and 20 - just as the scapegoat never returns to the camp of the saints -- as already stated.

I could "keep posting" that point each time you ask for it - but I don't know what that accomplishes.

Also, this seems to indicate that Satan does return to the general area of the camp:
Revelation 20:9 They went up over the width of the earth, and surrounded the camp of the saints, and the beloved city.

Not true because inside the city is God and the saints - and outside are the lost including Satan. And as Rev 20:10-11 points out they are then destroyed outside the city right where they are.

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone,

If your spin on this were accepted then it would mean that destroying the wicked would also destroy the saints since you are returning them to the saints as if they are back once again in full contact with them.
 
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BobRyan

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Well this is interesting Bob! You are saying there were times when Ellen White said that she was shown, that she saw, that the angel said, etc. and it was not inspired?

You referenced this private letter - and that is what I responded to...

"Much love to your dear father and to your sisters and brother. Tell them to be faithful to serve God. I have often prayed for them. Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scapegoat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness. A little longer and Jesus’ work will be finished in the sanctuary. {19MR 131.3}"​

There is nothing there saying "I was told by an Angel to tell you to pray much that..."

Now you are saying that private letter was at the direction of angel? Seriously??

====================

Your "private letter" source continues on

"Kiss the babe for me. Tell Charles to be a good little boy that he may meet his mother at the appearing of Jesus. My little one is with me; he knew me when I got home. I had been gone from him two months. He first looked at me, then flung his little arms around my neck. He is now very feeble, but we have prayed for him. He will be healed, I believe.—Letter 8, 1850. {19MR 132.1}"​

Ellen G. White Estate
Washington, D. C.,
May 12, 1988.
Entire Letter.
Is it your claim an angel wanted the baby kissed?
Is it your claim the entire church was to kiss the baby by direct command of God?

It is getting more difficult for me to believe you are taking your own argument all that seriously.
 
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tall73

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You referenced this private letter - and that is what I responded to...

Bob, it is all one letter.

She relays the vision, etc. gives advice and exhortation to the relative, then concludes.

Dear Sister Arabella,


This is the first opportunity I have had to write you since we left you. We have been traveling just as fast as we could go since we left your place. We have not allowed ourselves time to rest or hardly time to sleep. We have felt that the King’s business required haste, that what we did must be done quickly. God gave us a victorious time on our journey. The truth triumphed. I will not write the particulars of our journey for you will have it in the paper.

The Lord showed me that he, James, must take the testimonies that the leading Adventists published in 1844 and republish them and make them ashamed. He is now doing that work. Then the Lord showed me we must go east again. Last Monday evening while at Brother Lillis (Brethren Rhodes, Lillis, Edson and Harris present) I was greatly distressed for some in Israel. The burden was heavy. The brethren prayed the Lord to roll off the burden, and I was taken off in vision, a little of which I will write you. I saw the powers of darkness were rising. Satan has come down in great power, knowing that his time is short. Said the angel, as he pointed to Israel, Art thou rising? Thou art upon the enchanted ground. Dost thou not see it? Awake and arise and put on the strength of the Lord. I was pointed back to the children of Israel in Egypt. I saw when God worked through Moses before Pharaoh the magicians came up and said they could do the same. I saw the same work was now going on in the world and among the professed churches similar to the work of the magicians anciently. I saw the power of the magicians has increased tenfold, within a few months, and it will still be on the increase and spread, and unless Israel is rising and increasing in power and strength and is growing in grace and in the knowledge of the truth, the powers of darkness will get the victory over them. I saw we must be constantly rising and keep the ascendency above the powers of darkness. I saw singing to the glory of God often drove the enemy, and shouting would beat him back and give us the victory. I saw there was too little glorifying God in Israel and too little child-like simplicity. I asked the angel why there was not more power in Israel. Said he, Ye let go of the promises of God too quick. Press your petitions to the throne, and hold on by faith. Believe ye receive the things ye ask for, and ye shall have them. I was then pointed to Elijah. He was subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly. His faith endured the trial. Seven times he prayed before the Lord and at last the cloud was seen. I saw we had doubted and wounded the lovely Jesus by unbelief. I saw enchantment was all around us, and if Satan could get us to slumber he was sure of his prey. Said the angel, “Have faith in God.” I saw some tried too hard to believe. Faith is so simple, ye look above it. Satan tried to deceive some of the honest children and had got them looking to self to find worthiness there. I saw they must look away from self to the worthiness of Jesus and throw themselves, just as dependent and unworthy as they are, upon His mercy and draw by faith strength and nourishment from Him. Dear sister, I have not forgotten you, although I have not written you. I have often thought of you and prayed for you and the rest of the children that you and their faith fail not. Do not mingle with the world; keep separate from them. If you mingle with them you will surely lose strength. Seek to live near to God and to hold sweet communion with Him. Be diligent to make your calling and election sure. I believe God loves you and will save you if you hold fast whereunto you have attained. Everything and everyone is coming to naught but those who have this truth in them, the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Remember, sister, if you would come off victorious you must overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of your testimony. We are in a glorious cause that will triumph and that will never come to naught. Eternal life we are striving for. It is not for any riches or honor in this world, but it is for a home in glory, an enduring substance the beauty of which will never wear away and its glory will never vanish. Remember the Master of the house became poor, that we through His poverty might be made rich. We must be willing to be despised and trodden under foot here. We are soon to be exalted to a home in glory, a treasure in the heavens. Praise the Lord, we will go through and behold Him whom our souls admire. Press, press, dear sister, to the mark of the prize. Have faith in God. Endure trials; be patient in tribulations. Pray, pray much; keep the victory above the powers of darkness. Much love to your dear father and to your sisters and brother. Tell them to be faithful to serve God. I have often prayed for them. Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness. A little longer and Jesus’ work will be finished in the Sanctuary. Kiss the babe for me. Tell Charles to be a good little boy that he may meet his mother at the appearing of Jesus. My little one is with me; he knew me when I got home. I had been gone from him two months. He first looked at me, then flung his little arms around my neck. He is now very feeble, but we have prayed for him. He will be healed, I believe. In love.



Now you are saying that private letter was at the direction of angel? Seriously??

Bob, I am saying that you wish to claim unpublished material isn't inspired. But she says these statements again and again in this heretofore unpublished letter. Though of course it was sent to someone, so it was not unpublished anyway.

Your "private letter" source continues on

"Kiss the babe for me. Tell Charles to be a good little boy that he may meet his mother at the appearing of Jesus. My little one is with me; he knew me when I got home. I had been gone from him two months. He first looked at me, then flung his little arms around my neck. He is now very feeble, but we have prayed for him. He will be healed, I believe.—Letter 8, 1850. {19MR 132.1}"​

Ellen G. White Estate
Washington, D. C.,
May 12, 1988.
Entire Letter.
Is it your claim an angel wanted the baby kissed?
Is it your claim the entire church was to kiss the baby by direct command of God?

It is getting more difficult for me to believe you are taking your own argument all that seriously.

Now Bob, let's start from the top. You claimed unpublished letters didn't have inspired information. Do you still claim that nothing in that letter revealed inspired information?

Now as to your next argument, can you go through and tell us just which parts of the letter was inspired?

And can you do the same with 2 Timothy?

And how do you know this theological statement is not inspired, or based upon previous visions or communications from the Lord?

pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.
 
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BobRyan

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Bob, it is all one letter.

She relays the vision, etc. gives advice and exhortation to the relative, then concludes.

Dear Sister Arabella [Hastings],


This is the first opportunity I have had to write you since we left you. We have been traveling just as fast as we could go since we left your place. We have not allowed ourselves time to rest or hardly time to sleep. We have felt that the King’s business required haste, that what we did must be done quickly. God gave us a victorious time on our journey. The truth triumphed. I will not write the particulars of our journey for you will have it in the paper.

The Lord showed me that he, James, must take the testimonies that the leading Adventists published in 1844 and republish them and make them ashamed. He is now doing that work. Then the Lord showed me we must go east again. Last Monday evening while at Brother Lillis (Brethren Rhodes, Lillis, Edson and Harris present) I was greatly distressed for some in Israel. The burden was heavy. The brethren prayed the Lord to roll off the burden, and I was taken off in vision, a little of which I will write you. I saw the powers of darkness were rising. Satan has come down in great power, knowing that his time is short. Said the angel, as he pointed to Israel, Art thou rising? Thou art upon the enchanted ground. Dost thou not see it? Awake and arise and put on the strength of the Lord. I was pointed back to the children of Israel in Egypt. I saw when God worked through Moses before Pharaoh the magicians came up and said they could do the same. I saw the same work was now going on in the world and among the professed churches similar to the work of the magicians anciently. I saw the power of the magicians has increased tenfold, within a few months, and it will still be on the increase and spread, and unless Israel is rising and increasing in power and strength and is growing in grace and in the knowledge of the truth, the powers of darkness will get the victory over them. I saw we must be constantly rising and keep the ascendency above the powers of darkness. I saw singing to the glory of God often drove the enemy, and shouting would beat him back and give us the victory. I saw there was too little glorifying God in Israel and too little child-like simplicity. I asked the angel why there was not more power in Israel. Said he, Ye let go of the promises of God too quick. Press your petitions to the throne, and hold on by faith. Believe ye receive the things ye ask for, and ye shall have them. I was then pointed to Elijah. He was subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly. His faith endured the trial. Seven times he prayed before the Lord and at last the cloud was seen. I saw we had doubted and wounded the lovely Jesus by unbelief. I saw enchantment was all around us, and if Satan could get us to slumber he was sure of his prey. Said the angel, “Have faith in God.” I saw some tried too hard to believe. Faith is so simple, ye look above it. Satan tried to deceive some of the honest children and had got them looking to self to find worthiness there. I saw they must look away from self to the worthiness of Jesus and throw themselves, just as dependent and unworthy as they are, upon His mercy and draw by faith strength and nourishment from Him. Dear sister, I have not forgotten you, although I have not written you. I have often thought of you and prayed for you and the rest of the children that you and their faith fail not. Do not mingle with the world; keep separate from them. If you mingle with them you will surely lose strength. Seek to live near to God and to hold sweet communion with Him. Be diligent to make your calling and election sure. I believe God loves you and will save you if you hold fast whereunto you have attained. Everything and everyone is coming to naught but those who have this truth in them, the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Remember, sister, if you would come off victorious you must overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of your testimony. We are in a glorious cause that will triumph and that will never come to naught. Eternal life we are striving for. It is not for any riches or honor in this world, but it is for a home in glory, an enduring substance the beauty of which will never wear away and its glory will never vanish. Remember the Master of the house became poor, that we through His poverty might be made rich. We must be willing to be despised and trodden under foot here. We are soon to be exalted to a home in glory, a treasure in the heavens. Praise the Lord, we will go through and behold Him whom our souls admire. Press, press, dear sister, to the mark of the prize. Have faith in God. Endure trials; be patient in tribulations. Pray, pray much; keep the victory above the powers of darkness. Much love to your dear father and to your sisters and brother. Tell them to be faithful to serve God. I have often prayed for them. Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness. A little longer and Jesus’ work will be finished in the Sanctuary. Kiss the babe for me. Tell Charles to be a good little boy that he may meet his mother at the appearing of Jesus. My little one is with me; he knew me when I got home. I had been gone from him two months. He first looked at me, then flung his little arms around my neck. He is now very feeble, but we have prayed for him. He will be healed, I believe. In love.

A personal letter - never published by Ellen White. Nor does the letter say "the angel told me to tell them to pray much that...".

Not everything Ellen White said at the breakfast table came directly from a vision. Nor was the Angel telling someone to kiss little Charles. Nor did the White Estate even release this to Adventist in general until 1988 which means even they had enough common sense to know that it was a private letter.
 
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BobRyan

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Bob, I am saying that you wish to claim unpublished material isn't inspired.

Your unpublished letter example (A private letter to Hastings) with requests to kiss little Charles is most certainly not a message sent from God to the church and we both know it.

The fact that it has some references in it which even Ellen White is saying she is only giving a snippet of the communication from God - does not delete the fact that neither she nor the Ellen White estate were directed to publish this private letter in her life time or the many decades that followed.

How is this not the easy part???

You like to point to her published stack of books as being "a huge amount of material" yet get easily sidetracked down the path of unpublished private letters for the sake of some kind of emotional argument of some kind - when we have a published statement of beliefs where you differ on some of them and she has published statements that you differ with - that in theory provide you with enough subject matter to object to... I just don't fall for the unpublished private letter tactic like some others do.

But for the sake of discussion let's say for a moment that you had a balanced view of this -- I suspect it would go something like this ...

"Bob - as you know I do not accept Ellen White as being a real prophet commissioned by God and of course you do accept her ministry as being just that. But can you agree with me when we look at this private letter she wrote to a personal friend - that she used a phrase here that you would not be likely to use in your own private letter or email to a personal friend? Now do you think you would not use it because you view yourself as superior in some way to Ellen White or the Angels she was in contact with - or what?". And I would so "no I don't see myself as superior to any of them - I just think she had much more first hand eye witness information about what happens after the sanctuary work in heaven is done - than I do".

In other words given that it is private communication and that SDAs in general did not have access to her private letters until the 1980's - that would be a reasonable line of discussion. But it would also show how it is wayyy out on a tangent in terms of the main focus of this thread.
 
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tall73

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Your unpublished letter example with requests to kiss little Charels is most certainly not a message sent from God to the church and we both know it.

Bob, did I say this was originally sent to the whole church?

It is a letter. But it is a letter that has direct indicators that EGW is spelling out inspired information. And the statement in question is a statement with theological content.


The fact that it has some references in it which even Ellen White is saying she is only giving a snippet of the communication from God-does not delete the fact that neither she nor the Ellen White estate were directed to publish it in her life time or the many decades that followed.

How is this not the easy part???

Because Ellen White did not say that only published items to the whole church relate inspired content.

In fact she stated that she also wrote letters to people that contained inspired content.

And she said that she was able to select from previous lessons given:

I have been instructed in accordance with the Word in the precepts of the law of God. I have been instructed in selecting from the lessons of Christ.
RH, September 6, 1906 par. 1



Did you notice the similarity of portions of the statement to another of her related visions?

pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.
August 4, 1850

Compare with:

Then, while the plagues are falling, the scapegoat is being led away. He makes a mighty struggle to escape, but he is held fast by the hand that bears him away. If he should effect his escape, Israel would be destroyed (or slain).I saw that it would take time to bear him away into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put upon his head.

The Ellen G. White Letters and Manuscripts: Volume 1
October 23, 1850, Dorchester, Massachusetts

Interesting how the phrasing is similar to her later vision.


You like to point to her published stack of books as being "a huge amount of material"
Yeah, it is!

yet get easily sidetracked down the path of unpublished private letters for the sake of some kind of emotional argument of some kind - when we have a published statement of beliefs where you differ on some of them and she has published statements that you differ with.

Now Bob, you mean the EGW White Estate, not just me, got sidetracked with a letter than she states is relating inspired material? And they thought that a comment relating theological content in that letter was important?

Are you sure it is an emotional appeal Bob?

You don't think there is any theological content to confessing your sins over satan? How do you know it is not inspired, or from an earlier inspired vision?
 
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BobRyan

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Bob, did I say this was originally sent to the whole church?

No -- which makes some of your statements here all the more odd sine you ask all SDAs why they do not read unpublished statements and then treat them like they are commissioned by God for the general public.
 
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BobRyan

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It is a letter. But it is a letter that has direct indicators that EGW is spelling out inspired information.

In the private letter to her friend she never says an angel told her to have the baby Charles kissed and she never says an angel told her to make that statement about the scapegoat. Unpublished material is funny that way.
 
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BobRyan

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And she said that she was able to select from previous lessons given:

I have been instructed in accordance with the Word in the precepts of the law of God. I have been instructed in selecting from the lessons of Christ.
RH, September 6, 1906 par. 1

No doubt God directed her to take certain things and publish them in "The Testimonies TO THE CHURCH" but that does not make every little "Kiss Baby Charles" statement in a private letter to a friend - a "Testimony TO THE CHURCH" just because an x-SDA web site thinks it would be a fun thing to do.
 
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tall73

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No -- which makes some of your statements here all the more odd sine you ask all SDAs why they do not read unpublished statements and then treat them like they are commissioned by God for the general public.


In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me.
{5T 67.2}

The letter format does not rule out relaying inspired content Bob.




 
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BobRyan

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Compare with:

Then, while the plagues are falling, the scapegoat is being led away. He makes a mighty struggle to escape, but he is held fast by the hand that bears him away. If he should effect his escape, Israel would be destroyed (or slain).I saw that it would take time to bear him away into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put upon his head.

The Ellen G. White Letters and Manuscripts: Volume 1
October 23, 1850, Dorchester, Massachusetts

Interesting how the phrasing is similar to her later vision.

You are quoting that "As if " it is a published statement.... right???

Yet you keep showing us that all you have is an unpublished manuscript. Are we supposed to imagine something in this case???

There is enough published material on the scapegoat to know that she understood it to be pointing to Satan and that his part only comes after all the atoning work of the sin offering and sanctuary is completed without it.

You are of course hard pressed to admit to this key detail in your posts.
 
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BobRyan

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In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me.
{5T 67.2}

The letter format does not rule out relaying inspired content Bob.

So then you are or are not making the argument that private letters instructing a friend to kiss baby Charles are in fact a message to the entire denomination???

Or are you saying that God was unaware that some messages given to Ellen White - never got published?

My guess is that you have not in fact read all of Ellen White's published books/statements --- let alone all of her unpublished private letters to friends. So casting about you for these unpublished private letters is a bit "odd".
 
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No doubt God directed her to take certain things and publish them in "The Testimonies TO THE CHURCH" but that does not make every little "Kiss Baby Charles" statement in a private letter to a friend - a "Testimony TO THE CHURCH" just because an x-SDA web site thinks it would be a fun thing to do.

You think the Ellen White Estate is an ex-SDA website? That is a new claim.

You think when she said she was shown in that letter it was not true?

So if she sent a letter to someone indicating inspired content, but didn't publish it, then it was her own opinion?

Do you think that none of the letters sent to South African missionaries and members that were published in 1977 contained inspired content?

Testimonies to Southern Africa

To summarize, the E. G. White materials in the files of letters and
documents touching on Africa consist of counsels to missionaries
and leaders in Africa, to believers, and especially to members of the
Wessels family. It includes counsel to individuals, some of it very
personal and applying to particular situations. There are observations
pointing out mistakes in method, many exhortations, statements of
principles applying to the work, and many pages of deeply spiritual
instruction
 
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tall73

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You are quoting that "As if " it is a published statement.... right???

Yet you keep showing us that all you have is an unpublished manuscript. Are we supposed to imagine something in this case???

Well actually Bob part of that vision WAS published before her death. And the rest was later by the White Estate.
 
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So then you are or are not making the argument that private letters instructing a friend to kiss baby Charles are in fact a message to the entire denomination???

Bob, I am saying the size of the intended audience does not limit whether it contains inspired content.

Ellen White wrote many letters to many people, and claims that she was not just writing her own opinion.

And she talked about a lot more than the baby in that letter.

My guess is that you have not in fact read all of Ellen White's published books/statements --- let alone all of her unpublished private letters to friends. So casting about you for these unpublished private letters is a bit "odd".

Now Bob, I don't claim to have read everything Ellen White wrote. I did read way more than I now wish I had.

But this was not from me "casting about". It was from the friendly Adventist White Estate.
 
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