Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

[klutedavid]

Sins blotted out means they no longer count against the person for whom they were blotted out. Sins paid for at the cross by the all sufficient blood of Christ have full payment - but the payment is not assigned to the person until they are first "born into existence" and then make some appeal to our High Priest in heaven for forgiveness.

All the payment in the form of atoning sacrifice must be completed once for all at the cross before the work in the heavenly sanctuary with Christ as our High priest can begin -- so that is long before anything at all is done with the scapegoat according to God's Word in Lev 16.

All the work in the sanctuary must end - full and complete before anything at all is done with the scapegoat according to God's Word in Lev 16.

The scapegoat has all those sins confessed over it - as Lev 16 states - only AFTER all the work for sin offering and blotting out is done in the sanctuary.

Your point "seems to be" that either heaven-itself or maybe even God-Himself can't possibly know about the sin and its amount once it is blotted from the record of the individual that did the sin - or possibly that Satan might wish to have an exact transaction rollup spreadsheet. A detailed record with every person listed and the exact amount of torment due as per that person's sins documented so he could presumably double check those figures before seeing himself flung into the lake of fire. I am just not sure God would not still be "all knowing" - or that the folks in heaven care all that much at that point as to how "satisfied' Satan is regarding that exact amount and whose portion was equal to what.

Did someone mention a goat?

Leviticus 16:9-10
Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the Lord fell, and make it a sin offering. But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.

The scapegoat and atonement were intertwined with each other. More importantly, the scapegoat had to leave the camp, the city of Jerusalem, and into the wilderness. Bearing the sins of God's people outside the holy city and away from God's presence.

Hebrews 13:12
Therefore Jesus also suffered outside the gate, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood.

The goat is a powerful TYPE predicting that Jesus would take upon Himself the sin of humanity, in order to atone for that sin. Outside the gate of Jerusalem, outside the holy city, as the scripture predicted.

 

[tall73]

Or is it?

Your comment above is that private letters to friends about "kissing baby Charles on the head" cannot reference anything at all in the Bible or else they are "not common", not ordinary private letters.

That is demonstrably not what my comment said. I indicated that the letter you reference dedicates a great deal of space to her relating things she directly said is a result of inspiration, and also gives advice in the letter, which she says when she does that is not her own opinion.

That is more "extreme preference" and/or "extreme inference" on your part

That is your characterization based on totally ignoring the actual claim I made in the first place.

- and surely you can see how many in the actual Adventist church would not be so easily walked out onto such a limb.

They published the statement in a magazine that goes to all the ministers! They seemed to think there was more to the letter than you are letting on.

So while you may struggle with something that other readers would call commons sense - I avoid the entire thing by not getting into your unpublished statements in private letters and diaries rabbit trail.

Rather, while you may struggle to avoid the whole thing unsuccessfully,Adventists (not me) sent the statement to the ministers and broadcast it to anyone who searches in the right key words. They did this because they saw that these were theological statements that related to the subject.

 

[Leaf473]

And pastors and teachers.

11 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of people, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, that is, Christ



As I would say that also about evangelists, teachers, pastors etc in that chapter. They are all needed until "WE ALL" attain to unity and knowledge and maturity that belongs to the "fullness of Christ" - i.e. - the second coming.




Not so since I already showed what the NT qualification for Apostle is in Acts 1.



And I notice that we do not see those Acts 1 qualifications for any other office in the church in Eph 4 or in 1 Cor 12 regarding spiritual gifts. Which is why in 1 Cor 14 Paul points out "when you come together EACH ONE has a revelation".

All of this...already posted so far.



That would only makes sense if they both had same restricting qualifications as in Acts 1 - which we both admit is not the case.

So I don't see "the hard part" here. Is there something you are not mentioning that then would make it confusing??

I'll try saying it a different way.

Your interpretation of Ephesians 4, if you are consistent with it, contradicts your interpretation of Acts 1 imo.

 

[Leaf473]

Yet we see an example of an apostle, chosen by God, accepted as such by those in Jerusalem, who was not a witness from the beginning, but was a witness supernaturally, and and was taught by Christ directly, in Paul.

So God can still do so if He wishes. But there would need to be tremendous evidence to point that out.

Actually, that's a good point.
And not only is Paul called an apostle, but Barnabas is as well.

 

[Leaf473]

Sins blotted out means they no longer count against the person for whom they were blotted out. Sins paid for at the cross by the all sufficient blood of Christ have full payment - but the payment is not assigned to the person until they are first "born into existence" and then make some appeal to our High Priest in heaven for forgiveness.

All the payment in the form of atoning sacrifice must be completed once for all at the cross before the work in the heavenly sanctuary with Christ as our High priest can begin -- so that is long before anything at all is done with the scapegoat according to God's Word in Lev 16.

All the work in the sanctuary must end - full and complete before anything at all is done with the scapegoat according to God's Word in Lev 16.

The scapegoat has all those sins confessed over it - as Lev 16 states - only AFTER all the work for sin offering and blotting out is done in the sanctuary.

Your point "seems to be" that either heaven-itself or maybe even God-Himself can't possibly know about the sin and its amount once it is blotted from the record of the individual that did the sin - or possibly that Satan might wish to have an exact transaction rollup spreadsheet. A detailed record with every person listed and the exact amount of torment due as per that person's sins documented so he could presumably double check those figures before seeing himself flung into the lake of fire. I am just not sure God would not still be "all knowing" - or that the folks in heaven care all that much at that point as to how "satisfied' Satan is regarding that exact amount and whose portion was equal to what.

In Leviticus 16 I don't think the sins are blotted out in the same sense that they are in the new covenant, where God remembers our sins no more.

I don't think this means there are holes in God's memory, parts of history he can't see.

The scriptures often say things like, "Remember me, O God." I take that to mean take action regarding me.

So, I think when our sins are blotted out and remembered no more, that means God no longer takes actions regarding them.

 

[Leaf473]

Did someone mention a goat?

Leviticus 16:9-10
Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the Lord fell, and make it a sin offering. But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.

The scapegoat and atonement were intertwined with each other. More importantly, the scapegoat had to leave the camp, the city of Jerusalem, and into the wilderness. Bearing the sins of God's people outside the holy city and away from God's presence.

Hebrews 13:12
Therefore Jesus also suffered outside the gate, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood.

The goat is a powerful TYPE predicting that Jesus would take upon Himself the sin of humanity, in order to atone for that sin. Outside the gate of Jerusalem, outside the holy city, as the scripture predicted.

Indeed, both goats in the chapter are called a sin offering.

Leviticus 16:5 The community of Israel must give him two male goats and a ram. The goats are for a sin offering. The ram is for a burnt offering.
Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 16 - New International Reader's Version

 

[Leaf473]

One other thing I'd like to follow up on in the discussion about the gift of prophecy / office of prophet.

I had some time today to look around on the internet and research prophecy in Adventism.

"Alberto Timm, rector at the Latin-American Adventist Theological Seminary in Brasilia, Brazil, believes that since the passing of Ellen White, "as far as we know, there is no genuine prophet alive in our days".[7]"
Prophecy in the Seventh-day Adventist Church - Wikipedia

Did a little more researching:
Are There Still Prophets Today? - Adventist.org

The article talks a lot about the potential for prophecy today, but doesn't name any names.

Looking at a few other web pages, my general sense was that there was no consensus among Adventists as to who were the prophets today, if anybody. Today as in December 2021.

If there are no actual prophets operating, then discussions about the subject will remain academic, theoretical.

 

[BobRyan]

In Leviticus 16 I don't think the sins are blotted out in the same sense that they are in the new covenant[, where God remembers our sins no more

The New Covenant is in Jer 31:31-34 - it does not get invented in the New Testament.

God is explaining how the Gospel works in the sanctuary system which is how we have the New Testament talking about Christ's sacrifice related to passover in 1 Cor 5. It is how we have Christ as our High Priest in heaven's sanctuary in Heb 8. And it is why Heb 8 quotes the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 verbatim -- unchanged between OT and NT.

It is God teaching us about sins blotted out and that the Day of Atonement service is a judgment event that deals with the sins already claimed and committed to our high priest in the daily service.

 

[BobRyan]

One other thing I'd like to follow up on in the discussion about the gift of prophecy / office of prophet.

That is a Bible teaching that is true no matter if one is SDA or not.

I had some time today to look around on the internet and research prophecy in Adventism.

Nice - but the first step is to understand what the Bible says on the topic -- simply trying to find some short detail about Adventist history is not the same as studying the Bible doctrine itself.

If there are no actual prophets operating, then discussions about the subject will remain academic, theoretical.

1. There were multiple valid prophets in Ellen White's day - a fact also known to the source you quoted
2. There is no one today that has the God's-eye-view of all living prophets.
3. There was a "pause" in prophetic ministry for about 300 years just before Christ - which did nothing to "delete the gift of prophecy" as it showed up in the NT.

You can't just make up rules no matter what the Bible says to the contrary as if making stuff up stops certain Bible statements from being true - like for instance making stuff up as if this will stop 1 Cor 12 and Eph 4 from still being true.

 

[BobRyan]

I'll try saying it a different way.

Your interpretation of Ephesians 4, if you are consistent with it, contradicts your interpretation of Acts 1 imo.

I reported Acts 1 - you are welcome to reject that text if you wish - you have free will

===========================
But there is a case for Apostles "ceasing" made in Acts 1.

15 At this time Peter stood up among the brothers and sisters (a group of about 120 people was there together), and said, ....21 Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us— 22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” 23 So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which one of these two You have chosen 25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

So then not very many people could be qualified as "Apostle" by that criteria. By contrast that is not at all the Criteria that the Bible uses for prophets - so then the Bible calls Anna in the Temple a prophet, it calls Agabus a prophet and Paul says everyone in 1 Cor 14 had the gift of prophecy which could only have happened after Christ went to heaven since there were no Christian evangelists in Corinth before that.

 

[BobRyan]

The scapegoat and atonement were intertwined with each other. More importantly, the scapegoat had to leave the camp, the city of Jerusalem, and into the wilderness.

But as Lev 16:15 points out - it no longer qualifies as "sin offering".

In fact as Leviticus points out -- all sin offerings are slain. Period.. no exceptions.

Indeed, both goats in the chapter are called a sin offering.

Not once their roles are "assigned" because once assigned then the term "The Sin offering" in Lev 16:15 only refers to one of the goats.

Lev 16:15 15 “Then he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the atoning cover and in front of the atoning cover.

This is the very unambiguous reference you are trying to avoid because it shows that once they have roles assigned the scapegoat can never be "THE Goat of THE Sin Offering" -- only the Lord's goat qualifies.

 

[Leaf473]

The New Covenant is in Jer 31:31-34 - it does not get invented in the New Testament.

God is explaining how the Gospel works in the sanctuary system which is how we have the New Testament talking about Christ's sacrifice related to passover in 1 Cor 5. It is how we have Christ as our High Priest in heaven's sanctuary in Heb 8. And it is why Heb 8 quotes the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 verbatim -- unchanged between OT and NT.

It is God teaching us about sins blotted out and that the Day of Atonement service is a judgment event that deals with the sins already claimed and committed to our high priest in the daily service.

Jeremiah prophesied the new covenant, but it wasn't implemented until the last supper... Or maybe the cross or maybe the resurrection or maybe Pentecost. Take your pick.

Leviticus 16 gives a grainy, black and white illustration of some parts of the new covenant. It's a shadow. And like a shadow, a lot of details are missing.

Shadows also change with the time of day the flickering of the firelight. We may be seeing that in Leviticus 16. It may contain multiple illustrations.

Peace, my man!

 

[BobRyan]

Jeremiah prophesied the new covenant, but it wasn't implemented until the last supper...

Not true. It was ratified on the cross but it was effective with Adam.

It was implemented with Adam because as Gal 1:6-9 points out since the time of Adam there has been only one Gospel - and the NEW Covenant is that Gospel covenant promising a new heart, adoption into the family of God and forgiveness of sins. Which is how Moses and Elijah stand with Christ BEFORE the cross even happens in Matt 17 and it is why Paul says "the Gospel was preached to Abraham" in Gal 3:8. Even Moses write that the "Law shall be on your heart" as a command to Israel in Deuteronomy.

Deut 6:6 These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart.

Ps 40:8
8 I delight to do Your will, my God; Your Law is within my heart.”

Psalm 37:31 "The law of his God is in his heart; His steps do not slip."

Isaiah 51:7
“Listen to Me, you who know righteousness,
A people in whose heart is My law;
Do not fear the reproach of man,
Nor be dismayed at their revilings.

Or maybe the cross or maybe the resurrection or maybe Pentecost. Take your pick.

Gal 1:6-9 tells me to pick the time of "Adam"

 

[Leaf473]

That is a Bible teaching that is true no matter if one is SDA or not.



Nice - but the first step is to understand what the Bible says on the topic -- simply trying to find some short detail about Adventist history is not the same as studying the Bible doctrine itself.



1. There were multiple valid prophets in Ellen White's day - a fact also known to the source you quoted
2. There is no one today that has the God's-eye-view of all living prophets.
3. There was a "pause" in prophetic ministry for about 300 years just before Christ - which did nothing to "delete the gift of prophecy" as it showed up in the NT.

You can't just make up rules no matter what the Bible says to the contrary as if making stuff up stops certain Bible statements from being true - like for instance making stuff up as if this will stop 1 Cor 12 and Eph 4 from still being true.

That is a Bible teaching that is true no matter if one is SDA or not.

It's my understanding that in this section of CF we deal with specific Bible teachings in light of how particular denominations interpret them and put them into practice.

Nice - but the first step is to understand what the Bible says on the topic -- simply trying to find some short detail about Adventist history is not the same as studying the Bible doctrine itself.

True. At the same time if a group says that they know how a doctrine works and then *if* they can't make it work, that's an interesting piece of information imo.

1. There were multiple valid prophets in Ellen White's day - a fact also known to the source you quoted

White died over 100 years ago. That's partly what I'm getting at.

2. There is no one today that has the God's-eye-view of all living prophets.

True. That's probably why Timm qualified his remark with "As far as we know". But if prophecy is an identifying mark, then it must be seen in order to be an identifying mark imo.

3. There was a "pause" in prophetic ministry for about 300 years just before Christ - which did nothing to "delete the gift of prophecy" as it showed up in the NT.

Whether there was that long of a pause or not depends on which books you consider scripture and when you date them.

Also, I don't know that the gift of prophecy was an identifying mark of Israel. Maybe there's a scripture passage that says that and I can't think of it?

The identifying mark for an Israelite that comes to mind is circumcision and subsequent law keeping.

You can't just make up rules no matter what the Bible says to the contrary as if making stuff up stops certain Bible statements from being true - like for instance making stuff up as if this will stop 1 Cor 12 and Eph 4 from still being true.

I was evaluating the SDA rules for testing a prophet. It looks like either:

A) God is not giving anyone the gift of prophecy today or

B) the SDA test is unable to identify who they are.

Peace, my man! Great discussion!

 

[BobRyan]

One other thing I'd like to follow up on in the discussion about the gift of prophecy / office of prophet.

That is a Bible teaching that is true no matter if one is SDA or not.

I had some time today to look around on the internet and research prophecy in Adventism.

Nice - but the first step is to understand what the Bible says on the topic -- simply trying to find some short detail about Adventist history is not the same as studying the Bible doctrine itself.

It's my understanding that in this section of CF we deal with specific Bible teachings in light of how particular denominations interpret them and put them into practice.

Step 1 does not change in that case. -- "deal with some Bible teaching". Have to know what the Bible says about it first. Then compare what some particular denomination says about it.

nothing changes that simple basic feature.

if a group says that they know how a doctrine works and then *if* they can't make it work,

Denominations don't "make a doctrine work" rather they affirm some doctrine that either agrees with scripture or does not.

White died over 100 years ago. That's partly what I'm getting at.

1. No SDA doctrine said "The Bible teaches that Prophecy is only valid if Ellen White is alive". So you are off on a tangent not claimed by anyone.

2. The Bible shows that for over 300 years before the time of Christ there were no prophets. That did not delete Bible teaching on prophecy.

3. Even you find no Bible text saying that if there is no prophet for 300 years then delete the gift of prophecy.

4. No one here has shown that nobody on planet Earth has the gift of prophecy today or if one did we would all know their name.

5. Paul says in 1 Cor 14 -- that in Corinth "when you come together each one has a revelation" -- well guess what? We don't know their names.

 

[BobRyan]

I was evaluating the SDA rules for testing a prophet.

1. And you never found a statement saying -- "The Bible teaches that Prophecy is only valid if Ellen White is alive". So you are off on a tangent not claimed by anyone.

2. Even you find no Bible text (or Adventist doctrine) saying that if there is no prophet for 300 years then delete the gift of prophecy.

This is the easy part.

 

[BobRyan]

But if prophecy is an identifying mark, then it must be seen in order to be an identifying mark imo.

If your claim is that nobody is aware that a claim to a prophet and the gift of prophecy is being made by the Adventist denomination so then nobody jumps into "all Ellen White all the time" kinds of posts as soon as the Adventist church topic comes up - well you are free to ride that horse all day long. By contrast even Walter Martin (a non-SDA) in his objection to some SDA doctrines did not claim that nobody is aware of the connection between Adventists and the gift of prophecy. So you are selecting an extreme option which of course you are welcomed to... you do have free will after all.

 

[Leaf473]

3. There was a "pause" in prophetic ministry for about 300 years just before Christ - which did nothing to "delete the gift of prophecy" as it showed up in the NT.

Also I think that follows only if every prophet is required to write scripture.

At various times there were bands of prophets in Israel. That may have been the case in the last few centuries BC as well.

2 Kings 2:3 The band of the prophets at Bethel came out to Elisha and asked, “Do you know that the Lord is going to take your master from you today?”

 

[BobRyan]

Also I think that follows only if every prophet is required to write scripture.

Did Agabus or Nathan or Philip's four daughters or those in 1 Cor 14 "write scripture"?

Nathan and many other prophets are mentioned in scripture in both OT and NT who never wrote scripture. None of that sort of thing is mentioned in the Bible for those 300 years.

 

[Leaf473]

I reported Acts 1 - you are welcome to reject that text if you wish - you have free will

===========================
But there is a case for Apostles "ceasing" made in Acts 1.

15 At this time Peter stood up among the brothers and sisters (a group of about 120 people was there together), and said, ....21 Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us— 22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.” 23 So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which one of these two You have chosen 25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

So then not very many people could be qualified as "Apostle" by that criteria. By contrast that is not at all the Criteria that the Bible uses for prophets - so then the Bible calls Anna in the Temple a prophet, it calls Agabus a prophet and Paul says everyone in 1 Cor 14 had the gift of prophecy which could only have happened after Christ went to heaven since there were no Christian evangelists in Corinth before that.

I hear what you are saying about your reasoning regarding Acts 1.

And then your reasoning regarding:
Ephesians 4:11 He gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, shepherds and teachers; 12 for the perfecting of the saints, to the work of serving, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

is that the office of prophet must still be around today, yes? By the same reasoning you use in Ephesians 4, the office of apostle must still be around today, since it is on the same list.

If you believe the office of apostle must not be around today, then your reasoning regarding Ephesians 4 is inconsistent, imo.

#############
Edit: but at this point, we're really just talking about a logic exercise imo.

I say that because the office of prophet is currently vacant, as I understand the SDA view.