Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

[LoveGodsWord]

But the goat does not die for sin in the wilderness. It probably dies of natural causes. Whether it returns or not probably depends on how much it's enjoying the wilderness.

The application to "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel) being led away into the wilderness has it's anti-type fulfillment in Revelation 20:1-3 [1], And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. [2], And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, [3], And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. After the 1000 years the devil and his angels and all the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire which is a final burnt offering before the Lord that destroys sin and death. (see Revelation 20:4-15). This was already shared with you from the scriptures some time ago now.

When you say the BDB, I'm assuming you are referring to the Brown-Driver-Briggs. Yes?
Their definition is given in that link. Strong's #5799 - עֲזָאזֵל - Old Testament Hebrew Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org It says: 1b) meaning dubious Are you able to find that?

No, I posted the BDB Hebrew and English Lexicon unabridged that does not say that the meaning is dubious and other sources that are all in agreement from (1) scripture; (2) a Jewish commentary on the Torah; (3) the Apocrypha book of Enoch; (4) the Hebrew dictionary and Lexicon meanings of "scapegoat" (Azazel; "remove" "fallen angel") which are all in agreement together that "scapegoat" (Azazel; "remove" "fallen angel") represents Satan (Revelation 20:1-3).

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged - H5799
H5799. Azazel; עֲזָאזֵל noun [masculine] entire removal (reduplicated intensive (Ges§ 30 n. Sta§ 124 a), abstract, √ [עזל] = Arabic remove, see BährSymb. ii. 668 Winii. 659 ff. Me SchenkelBL. i. 256; > most, proper name of spirit haunting desert, Thes Di DrHastings, DB a fallen angel, Lev 16:8ff. being late, according to CheZAW xv (1895), 153 ff., Ency. Bib., who derives from עזזאֿל; compare BenzEncy. Bib.], as in Jewish angelology, where probably based on interpret. of 16:8ff.; name not elsewhere); — ׳ע 16:8, 10 (twice in verse); 16:26 in ritual of Day of Atonement, = entire removal of sin and guilt from sacred places into desert on back of goat, symbol of entire forgiveness.

Jewish commentaries are famous for all kinds of wild ideas imo. The book of Enoch is probably written much later than Leviticus and probably represents whatever popular ideas were going around in Jewish culture at the time and place. Of the three sources, the BDB carries by far the most weight imo. The scholars who wrote it would have known about the other two sources. They give several definitions.

Sorry hand waiving and by simply providing an opinion does not really cut it here with me Leaf. Of course you are free to believe as you with. That is between you and God. You may want to consider here that you have provided no evidence or scripture that supports your view and you have not provided anything that is in disagreement with the scriptures and everything else that has been shared with you here. So I will leave that between you and God. As posted earlier it is the collective evidence that you should consider here. As shown above the collective evidence as shown from (1) scripture; (2) Jewish commentary on the Torah; (3) the Apocrypha book of Enoch; (4) the Hebrew dictionary and Lexicon meanings of "scapegoat" (Azazel; "remove" "fallen angel") and (5) The occult and Satanism represent Satan as the goat. All these collectively are all in agreement together showing that the "scapegoat" (Azazel; "remove" "fallen angel") represents Satan (Revelation 20:1-3). What have you provided? Nothing.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So to clarify, when you pray about your sins, do you pray to Jesus that He would atone for them by His blood? Or do you do as Ellen White indicated here and pray that your sins are confessed on the head of satan? Or do you do both?

Much love to your dear father and to your sisters and brother. Tell them to be faithful to serve God. I have often prayed for them. Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.

Lt 8, 1850

Sadly your twisting EGW statements again. The reference here is to the great day of atonement when all the sins of God's people have been cleansed and atoned for and are transferred by the great high Priest to "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel) which is kept alive and led into the wilderness by a strong man after blood sacrifice is completed for all of Gods people. *Leviticus 16:20-22.

If Jesus will make atonement for you (in your view in the IJ), why do you need to pray for your sins to be put on satan? And why does she keep talking about it being your sin after you say it is not?

Your now sadly seeking to twist my words as well as the EGW statement you are quoting from. This has already been addressed in a detailed scripture response to you in regards to the daily and yearly ministrations of the Priesthood and the different roles of "the Lords goat" through blood sacrifice and "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel) that is "kept alive" for the removal of all sin from the presence of God.

And how can satan, being a sinner, take on sin not his own?

Perhaps you can pray about it and ask God if you still do not understand after our discussion already on the daily and yearly ministration of the Priesthood and blood sacrifice and the final atonement of God's people through "the Lords goat" and the removal of all sin from the presence of God to "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel) as shown in Leviticus 16

And when you say After this time all the wicked as well as the devil and his angels are then thrown into the lake of fire where they will all atone for their sins typified as the final burnt offering and the removal of all sin and death from the presence of the Lord.

I did not say the above. Gods' Word does as shown in Leviticus 16; Leviticus 4:22-35; Revelation 22:11-15; Revelation 20.

So to clarify, they are atoning not just for their sins but also for yours, but which are not yours now because Jesus purchased them? Why are they atoned for twice?

According to the scriptures all the sins of God's people after they have been atoned for by blood sacrifice are transferred to "the scapegoat" (Azazel - fallen angel) and removed from the presence of God and the Sanctuary who is kept alive and led away by a strong man into the wilderness (Leviticus 16:20-22; see also anti-type application in Revelation 20:1-3) and Revelation 20:4-17 when all the wicked and Satan and his angels are finally in the Lake of fire - Anti-type of a kind of final burnt offering for all sin and death that is the wages of sin.

But satan is a sinful being. So why would he be represented by the same unblemished goat as Christ?

Perhaps you can pray about it and ask God if you still do not know after our discussion in the scriptures (see Leviticus 16).

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

We notice what she actually says. And we notice you and LGW can't quite seem to keep it straight. But as @ChetSinger noted, you don't have to. We see the statements.

Actually no. None of those statements are saying what you are trying to make them say. As shown through the scriptures already, your not applying a correct interpretation to those EGW statement and the penalty of sin in application to the yearly ministration of the Priesthood. The scripture applications provided earlier in this OP show the role of the Levitical Priesthood to the daily and the yearly ministrations of blood sacrifice and atonement for sin and its final applications to the death of the wicked. The scriptures provided in this OP only support what those EGW statement are saying with the correct interpretation showing the role of the yearly ministrations of the Priesthood and the types and anti-types as shown in the new covenant applications of atonement. Scripture is the key here as shown earlier and I believe your misapplying it when reading EGW statements and it seems your leading others to do the same that do not understand the subject matter. Sadly Tall, I do not know a single SDA that believes the application and the interpretation of those EGW statements that your applying to them. Just this fact alone and two SDA's here in this thread also saying the same thing should speak volumes to you already that your misrepresenting what we believe here, even after we have told you what you are claiming here is what no one believes including EGW.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LGW you have often accused me of twisting Ellen White's statements. I would like to discuss a particular statement of Ellen White regarding the sanctuary. Can you please explain what this statement means. That way we can get your view before I place any "twisting" on the passage:

Which is what you always have done in every quote you have provided that I have investigated for myself in the past. Your doing the same thing here in context to "the scapegoat" and the great day of atonement.

Early Writings, by Ellen G. White. A Firm Platform

And by rejecting the two former messages, they have so darkened their understanding that they can see no light in the third angel's message, which shows the way into the most holy place. I saw that as the Jews crucified Jesus, so the nominal churches had crucified these messages, and therefore they have no knowledge of the way into the most holy, and they cannot be benefited by the intercession of Jesus there. Like the Jews, who offered their useless sacrifices, they offer up their useless prayers to the apartment which Jesus has left; and Satan, pleased with the deception, assumes a religious character, and leads the minds of these professed Christians to himself, working with his power, his signs and lying wonders, to fasten them in his snare.

I have linked to the context. People are free to read the entirety of Early Writings if they like to get the context.

It says what it says and it is true according to the scriptures. It's application here in context to our discussion in regards to the type and anti-types of the great day of atonement (the yearly ministration of the Priesthood) in the most holy place of the Sanctuary for the final atonement of cleansing of sin through blood sacrifice) is only opened to those who through repentance of sin and confession of sin and transference of sin through blood sacrifice (paying the penalty of sin) and blood atonement in the daily sin offerings and collectively through "the Lords goat" with intercession of Great High Priest and blood atonement for God's forgiveness of sin.

This links directly to the three angels messages of Revelation 14:6-12 and also to Revelation 18:1-5. Where God calls all His people to come out from following man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God and return to his Word. This of course is all over worship. Who do we choose to worship? God or man? For is calling us all to "Remember" the Sabbath day to keep it holy and the hour of his judgment is come: and to worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. *Revelation 14:6. If any man worship the Beast and his image (Sunday worship) they will receive the Mark of the Beast. This takes place only once worship is enforced by civil law (Revelation 13).

Only those who keep the commandments of God are Gods' saints according to the scriptures here (Revelation 14:12) and enter in though the gates into Gods city *Revelation 22:14. If we reject God's Word in order to continue in known unrepentant sin God will reject us and we will have our lot with the wicked.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Could one of the Adventists in the thread let us know

Here is some questions now for you and any of your friends to consider. Could you please tell me are we all God's children if we choose to believe and follow Gods' Word Gods'?

If yes, can you look at what the scriptures says below....

Matthew 18:1-6 is that says; [1], At the same time came the disciples to Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? [2], And Jesus called a little child to him, and set him in the middle of them, [3], And said, Truly I say to you, Except you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. [4], Whoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. [5], And whoever shall receive one such little child in my name receives me. [6], But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea.

What do you think it means? Does God hold us accountable for sin if we are responsible for leading God's children who believe in him into sin?

.................

What about these scriptures what do they all mean?

Jeremiah 23:4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, said the LORD.

How does the above scripture relate to these scriptures...?

Isaiah 56:10-12 [10], His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. [11], Yes, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter. [12], Come you, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

Jeremiah 25:34-38 [34], Howl, you shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves in the ashes, you principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersion's are accomplished; and you shall fall like a pleasant vessel. [35], And the shepherds shall have no way to flee, nor the principal of the flock to escape. [36], A voice of the cry of the shepherds, and an howling of the principal of the flock, shall be heard: for the LORD has spoiled their pasture. [37], And the peaceable habitations are cut down because of the fierce anger of the LORD. [38], He has forsaken his covert, as the lion: for their land is desolate because of the fierceness of the oppressor, and because of his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 50:6-7 [6], My people has been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting place. [7], All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the LORD, the habitation of justice, even the LORD, the hope of their fathers.

Ezekiel 34:2-10 [2], Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say to them, Thus said the Lord GOD to the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? [3], You eat the fat, and you clothe you with the wool, you kill them that are fed: but you feed not the flock. [4], The diseased have you not strengthened, neither have you healed that which was sick, neither have you bound up that which was broken, neither have you brought again that which was driven away, neither have you sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have you ruled them. [5], And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. [6], My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and on every high hill: yes, my flock was scattered on all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them. [7], Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; [8], As I live, said the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock; [9], Therefore, O you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; [10], Thus said the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

and again here...

Ezekiel 3:17-20 [17], Son of man, I have made you a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. [18], When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand. [19], Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul. [20], Again, When a righteous man does turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because you have not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at your hand.

.................

Finally how do all these scriptures relate to our conversation about transferring all the sins of God's people to "the scapegoat" (Azazel; "remove" "fallen angel") at the end of all blood atonement? So does God hold us accountable for the sins of others?

Something to pray about,

Take Care

 

[tall73]

Matthew 18:1-6 is that says; [1], At the same time came the disciples to Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? [2], And Jesus called a little child to him, and set him in the middle of them, [3], And said, Truly I say to you, Except you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. [4], Whoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. [5], And whoever shall receive one such little child in my name receives me. [6], But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea.

What do you think it means? Does God hold us accountable for sin if we are responsible for leading God's children who believe in him into sin?

Yes, God holds us accountable if we tempt people or lead them into sin.

And he also holds people accountable when they sin due to their own desires.

Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
Jas 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

satan is not the cause of all of the sins of God's people. satan is responsible for the sin of temptation. And people are responsible for their sins when they are lured by their own evil desire.

What about these scriptures what do they all mean?

Jeremiah 23:4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, said the LORD.

How does the above scripture relate to these scriptures...?

Isaiah 56:10-12 [10], His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. [11], Yes, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter. [12], Come you, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

Jeremiah 25:34-38 [34], Howl, you shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves in the ashes, you principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersion's are accomplished; and you shall fall like a pleasant vessel. [35], And the shepherds shall have no way to flee, nor the principal of the flock to escape. [36], A voice of the cry of the shepherds, and an howling of the principal of the flock, shall be heard: for the LORD has spoiled their pasture. [37], And the peaceable habitations are cut down because of the fierce anger of the LORD. [38], He has forsaken his covert, as the lion: for their land is desolate because of the fierceness of the oppressor, and because of his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 50:6-7 [6], My people has been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting place. [7], All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the LORD, the habitation of justice, even the LORD, the hope of their fathers.

Ezekiel 34:2-10 [2], Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say to them, Thus said the Lord GOD to the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? [3], You eat the fat, and you clothe you with the wool, you kill them that are fed: but you feed not the flock. [4], The diseased have you not strengthened, neither have you healed that which was sick, neither have you bound up that which was broken, neither have you brought again that which was driven away, neither have you sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have you ruled them. [5], And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. [6], My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and on every high hill: yes, my flock was scattered on all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them. [7], Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; [8], As I live, said the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock; [9], Therefore, O you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; [10], Thus said the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

Indeed, those shepherds sinned by leading people astray.

and again here...

Ezekiel 3:17-20 [17], Son of man, I have made you a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. [18], When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand. [19], Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul. [20], Again, When a righteous man does turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because you have not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at your hand.

Ezekiel is held accountable if he does not relay God's message.

Finally how do all these scriptures relate to our conversation about transferring all the sins of God's people to "the scapegoat" (Azazel; "remove" "fallen angel") at the end of all blood atonement? So does God hold us accountable for the sins of others?

Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused.

Ellen White speaks about several categories of sin that she sees satan bearing:

-his own sins
-ruin of souls he caused (technically still his sin, of temptation, etc.)
- sins of the redeemed host which have been placed upon him.

The last one, the sins of the redeemed he cannot bear. He can't take on sins of others, as he is wicked, and pays for his own sins, including temptation and ruining souls.

When people are tempted by their own desires, when they sin, that is their sin. The people of God bore those sins, and had to pay the price. But they accepted Christ as their substitute, and He paid the price of their sins. satan never could.

 

[tall73]

Early Writings, by Ellen G. White. A Firm Platform

And by rejecting the two former messages, they have so darkened their understanding that they can see no light in the third angel's message, which shows the way into the most holy place. I saw that as the Jews crucified Jesus, so the nominal churches had crucified these messages, and therefore they have no knowledge of the way into the most holy, and they cannot be benefited by the intercession of Jesus there. Like the Jews, who offered their useless sacrifices, they offer up their useless prayers to the apartment which Jesus has left; and Satan, pleased with the deception, assumes a religious character, and leads the minds of these professed Christians to himself, working with his power, his signs and lying wonders, to fasten them in his snare.

It says what it says and it is true according to the scriptures. It's application here in context to our discussion in regards to the type and anti-types of the great day of atonement (the yearly ministration of the Priesthood) in the most holy place of the Sanctuary for the final atonement of cleansing of sin through blood sacrifice) is only opened to those who through repentance of sin and confession of sin and transference of sin through blood sacrifice (paying the penalty of sin) and blood atonement in the daily sin offerings and collectively through "the Lords goat" with intercession of Great High Priest and blood atonement for God's forgiveness of sin.

This links directly to the three angels messages of Revelation 14:6-12 and also to Revelation 18:1-5. Where God calls all His people to come out from following man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God and return to his Word. This of course is all over worship. Who do we choose to worship? God or man? For is calling us all to "Remember" the Sabbath day to keep it holy and the hour of his judgment is come: and to worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. *Revelation 14:6. If any man worship the Beast and his image (Sunday worship) they will receive the Mark of the Beast. This takes place only once worship is enforced by civil law (Revelation 13).

Only those who keep the commandments of God are Gods' saints according to the scriptures here (Revelation 14:12) and enter in though the gates into Gods city *Revelation 22:14. If we reject God's Word in order to continue in known unrepentant sin God will reject us and we will have our lot with the wicked.

Take Care.

Can you explain this part please?

they offer up their useless prayers to the apartment which Jesus has left

 

[tall73]

No, not at all. You simply either hand waived much of my post and simply disagreed without showing why you were in disagreement from the scriptures.

As already stated above, you simply either hand waived much of my post and simply disagreed without showing why you were in disagreement from the scriptures. If you agree that there is a strong link that "the scapegoat" (Azazel - "remove" "fallen angel") represents Satan then how can it represent Jesus? You were also shown from the scriptures in the types and the anti-types of the new covenant why it is impossible for "the scapegoat" (Azazel - "remove" "fallen angel") to represent Jesus and you have provided no scripture to show that "the scapegoat" (Azazel - "remove" "fallen angel") does not represent Satan and provided no scripture to show that the "the scapegoat" (Azazel - "remove" "fallen angel") represents Jesus.

You don't seem to be following @Leaf473 statements very well. He hasn't made the claim that the scapegoat represents Jesus. So there is no reason he would have to present arguments in support of an argument he didn't put forward.

He also said he doesn't have to refute your position that the scapegoat is satan. You are the one explaining the position, and advocating for it, so the burden of proof is on you, whether he responds or not.

In light of that your statements don't follow. He is asking about the parts he wants more clarification on in order to evaluate your claim. He is entertaining your position, and asking you about the evidence. Seems fair.

 

[tall73]

Once again an opinion your not able to support by scripture.

@Leaf473 asked you what evidence you have of your position from Scripture. He even went back and asked clarifying questions, tried to highlight where he didn't understand your contentions about the Scriptures provided, etc.

If he was not convinced your evidence is strong, why would he have to present anything? He is evaluating your argument, and your evidence, that you presented. That requires no presentation on his part.

Meanwhile you were provided four different sources that were all in agreement. These included a (1). Scripture;

If he thought the Scripture you provided was strong evidence for your view, why would he need the other sources?

(2). Jewish commentary on the Torah and meaning of the name Azazel; (3). the Apocrypha book of Enoch;

He noted that Jewish sources have all kinds of opinions on lots of things. And of course some Jewish sources don't support your view. I noted the LXX translation favoring more the view of total removal.

(4). the BDB and English Lexicon

Which also listed other views such as "total removal", with a different theory of etymology. It was even listed first. And unlike the Jewish sources and the book of Enoch which were from a later period, it could well be a contemporaneous understanding with the text.

and (5). The occult and Satanism depicting Satan as a goat.

I think quoting devotees of the father of lies is probably an evidence AGAINST your view, rather than for it. But you can hardly expect him to line up behind your view because a satanist told you, in a thread on Scripture testing.

All five independent sources are in agreement.

As noted they are not all independent. The book of enoch influenced other views. And the BDB listed multiple views, not just that one.

If you agree that there is a strong link here

That was listed as a disagreement. He didn't think it was strong.

then if your in disagreement you would need to prove otherwise and you haven't done this.

Since you misread him and he said you didn't present a strong link, that doesn't follow at all. You are presenting your view. He is evaluating it. He doesn't need to prove anything to evaluate your view.

 

[tall73]

You know exactly what I believe and it is not what your claiming and others have claimed that no one believes. Here you go again asking the same question already answered with detailed scripture responses to you over and over. I suggest you go re-read them.

@Leaf473 is probably just confused by how your answer doesn't actually make sense with Ellen White's statements.

Finally, do you know the difference between Jesus paying the penalty for our sins through blood sacrifice and interceding on our behalf before God as our great high Priest with His own blood and the wicked who reject Christs free gift of Gods' grace who are kept alive to pay the penalty for their own sins?

Probably the part throwing him is how Ellen White sees multiple categories of sins that satan must pay for, and one of them is not his own sins.

Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Early Writings

1. Punishment of own sins, the one you reference.
2. ruin of souls caused (also his sin, of temptation, etc.), so part of what you reference.
3. sins of the redeemed host, NOT his sins. And he has no way as a sinner to take on those sins, as he has his own. Jesus, already paid for those sins, and took on the penalty. So saying satan still has to pay them is a denial of your earlier statement of Jesus' blood atonement.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Early Writings, by Ellen G. White. A Firm Platform

And by rejecting the two former messages, they have so darkened their understanding that they can see no light in the third angel's message, which shows the way into the most holy place. I saw that as the Jews crucified Jesus, so the nominal churches had crucified these messages, and therefore they have no knowledge of the way into the most holy, and they cannot be benefited by the intercession of Jesus there. Like the Jews, who offered their useless sacrifices, they offer up their useless prayers to the apartment which Jesus has left; and Satan, pleased with the deception, assumes a religious character, and leads the minds of these professed Christians to himself, working with his power, his signs and lying wonders, to fasten them in his snare.




Can you explain this part please?

they offer up their useless prayers to the apartment which Jesus has left

I provided my response in the post you are quoting from that you are seeking to hand waive away here from the scriptures by stating that it's application here in context to our discussion is in regards to the type and anti-types of the great day of atonement (the yearly ministration of the Priesthood) in the most holy place of the Sanctuary for the final atonement of cleansing of sin through blood sacrifice) is only opened to those who through repentance of sin and confession of sin and transference of sin through blood sacrifice (paying the penalty of sin) and blood atonement in the daily sin offerings and collectively through "the Lords goat" with intercession of Great High Priest and blood atonement for God's forgiveness of sin.

This links directly to the three angels messages of Revelation 14:6-12 and also to Revelation 18:1-5. Where God calls all His people to come out from following man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God and return to his Word. This of course is all over worship. Who do we choose to worship? God or man? For is calling us all to "Remember" the Sabbath day to keep it holy and the hour of his judgment is come: and to worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. *Revelation 14:6. If any man worship the Beast and his image (Sunday worship) they will receive the Mark of the Beast. This takes place only once worship is enforced by civil law (Revelation 13).

Only those who keep the commandments of God are Gods' saints according to the scriptures here (Revelation 14:12) and enter in though the gates into Gods city *Revelation 22:14. If we reject God's Word in order to continue in known unrepentant sin God will reject us and we will have our lot with the wicked.

What was it that you did not agree with in my comment on that quote and the scriptures provided here?

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You don't seem to be following @Leaf473 statements very well. He hasn't made the claim that the scapegoat represents Jesus. So there is no reason he would have to present arguments in support of an argument he didn't put forward.

He also said he doesn't have to refute your position that the scapegoat is satan. You are the one explaining the position, and advocating for it, so the burden of proof is on you, whether he responds or not.

In light of that your statements don't follow. He is asking about the parts he wants more clarification on in order to evaluate your claim. He is entertaining your position, and asking you about the evidence. Seems fair.

No, absolutely not at all. I absolutely have followed Leafs statement very well. The scapegoat can only represent Jesus or Satan right? Who else can the scapegoat represent? Now plenty of evidence has been provided supporting the view that "the scapegoat" (Azazel; "remove" "fallen angel") represents Satan. Nothing has been provided that shows Jesus is "the scapegoat" (Azazel; "remove" "fallen angel"). In fact this view is impossible according to the scriptures. So who else can "the scapegoat" (Azazel; "remove" "fallen angel") represent?

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

@Leaf473 asked you what evidence you have of your position from Scripture. He even went back and asked clarifying questions, tried to highlight where he didn't understand your contentions about the Scriptures provided, etc.

All of which were answered all through our discussions.

If he was not convinced your evidence is strong, why would he have to present anything? He is evaluating your argument, and your evidence, that you presented. That requires no presentation on his part.

I am sorry dear friend but I respectfully disagree with you. If you make a claim something is not true or cannot be true then that is something you need to be able to show why it is not true. This of course was in light of providing collective evidence not isolated individual sources.

Collectively all the evidence provided earlier are all in agreement showing that "the scapegoat" (Azazel; "remove" "fallen angel") represents Satan as the instigator of all sin who has all the sins that he caused Gods' people to sin transferred to him as the penalty in regards to his part in leading God's people away from God and His Word.

This was shown not only through (1). Scripture but included; (2). Jewish commentary on the Torah; (3). Book of Enoch (Apocrypha) Azazel is the leader of the fallen angels; (4). Hebrew dictionary and Lexicon meaning of "the scapegoat" (Azazel; "remove" "fallen angel"); (5). The symbol of a goat represents Satan in the occult. Now even Leaf admitted there were strong links here showing Satan as representing "the scapegoat" (Azazel; "remove" "fallen angel") as Satan.

Yet we are not talking about one of individual links here but all these collective links that are all in agreement together just making the evidence stronger. What has been provided in response to disprove the above? - Nothing! I am sorry the rest of your post is simply an opinion which I do not believe or think relevant so we will have to agree to disagree here. Sorry.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

@Leaf473 is probably just confused by how your answer doesn't actually make sense with Ellen White's statements.

I am sure he is confused but the confusion lies in the interpretation you provided him earlier to those EGW statements. When you were provided scripture support showing how those statements agree with the scriptures applied in context to the yearly ministration of the High Priest and the roles of "the Lords Goat" providing blood sacrifice and atonement for all of God's people and "the scapegoat" (Azazel: "remove" "fallen angel") that is kept alive for the removal of all sin from the presence of God and it's application to satan and his final punishment in the lake of fire we see a completely different interpretation of those EGW quotes. All the scripture provided in our discussion here are only supportive of the EGW statements not in disagreement with them like you would like to believe. Anyhow of course you are free to believe as you wish. For the record though, I do not know a single SDA that interprets those EGW statements you have provided the way you do. Funny that. Yet here you are telling everyone what we believe that in actual fact no one believes accept you. Even @BobRyan told you this.

Probably the part throwing him is how Ellen White sees multiple categories of sins that satan must pay for, and one of them is not his own sins.

Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Early Writings

Which all agrees with Leviticus 16:20-22; Revelation 20:1-3 and Revelation 20:4-17

1. Punishment of own sins, the one you reference.
2. ruin of souls caused (also his sin, of temptation, etc.), so part of what you reference.
3. sins of the redeemed host, NOT his sins. And he has no way as a sinner to take on those sins, as he has his own. Jesus, already paid for those sins, and took on the penalty. So saying satan still has to pay them is a denial of your earlier statement of Jesus' blood atonement.

Sorry I do not believe you. Please see Leviticus 16:20-22.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yes, God holds us accountable if we tempt people or lead them into sin.

Great thank you for this and I fully agree with your answer here. So according to the scriptures shared with you if Satan tempts us to sin is he held accountable to God for leading us into sin? Please consider especially the scriptures provided in Matthew 18:1-6; Isaiah 56:10-12; Jeremiah 25:34-38; Jeremiah 50:6-7; Ezekiel 34:2-10; and especially in view of Ezekiel 3:17-20

satan is not the cause of all of the sins of God's people. satan is responsible for the sin of temptation. And people are responsible for their sins when they are lured by their own evil desire.

Isn't this simply a spin on words for backtracking in your original response that says that God holds us accountable for leading others into sin? Is what your saying here in agreement the words of Jesus recorded in Matthew?

Matthew 18:1-6 is that says; [1], At the same time came the disciples to Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? [2], And Jesus called a little child to him, and set him in the middle of them, [3], And said, Truly I say to you, Except you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. [4], Whoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. [5], And whoever shall receive one such little child in my name receives me. [6], But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea.

The point I am making here is that if according to the scriptures God holds any of us accountable for leading (tempting) His children (those who believe and follow God's Word) away from Gods' Word into sin. How can he now hold Satan accountable for leading Gods' people into sin through tempting them to sin? Your view is not consistent with scripture is it?

Indeed, those shepherds sinned by leading people astray. Ezekiel is held accountable if he does not relay God's message

Agreed. So God does hold us accountable for the sins of others if we have opportunity to warn them and we do not warn them right? You do know that all of these scriptures and questions are only showing that after all the sins of God's people have atoned for and purchased through blood sacrifice that he hold Satan accountable for leading us into sin as shown in the scriptures shared with you right?

Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused.

Agreed this is simply an EGW statement that is agreeing with everything that is being shared with you from the scriptures so far in this thread with application to the great day of atonement and Leviticus 16. So your point here is?

Ellen White speaks about several categories of sin that she sees satan bearing:

-his own sins
-ruin of souls he caused (technically still his sin, of temptation, etc.)
- sins of the redeemed host which have been placed upon him.

The last one, the sins of the redeemed he cannot bear. He can't take on sins of others, as he is wicked, and pays for his own sins, including temptation and ruining souls.

When people are tempted by their own desires, when they sin, that is their sin. The people of God bore those sins, and had to pay the price. But they accepted Christ as their substitute, and He paid the price of their sins. satan never could.

Well, you have provided an opinion here that I see is partly supported by the scriptures as shown you above while at the same time disagreeing with the scriptures shared with you above and also already shown in Leviticus 16:20-22. Perhaps you can prayerfully think this one through a bit more. If God holds us accountable for leading others into sin why would he not hold Satan accountable for leading His people into sin as "the scapegoat" (Azazel; "remove" "fallen angel)? Your view is not consistent with scripture and the yearly ministration of the Priesthood and the great day of atonement (Leviticus 16).

Take Care.

 

[klutedavid]

The washing and sprinkling refers to the daily service where the sinner is confessing sins and being cleansed as a result of the work of Christ - as High Priest in the sanctuary - which is the daily service.

Hello Bob.

You stated the following verse in post #2.

The washing and sprinkling refers to the daily service where the sinner is confessing sins and being cleansed as a result of the work of Christ - as High Priest in the sanctuary - which is the daily service.

Not sure what you are trying to say in that verse?

Hebrews 10:11-14
Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Christ's atonement was perfect and offered for all sin and forever.

How can there be a daily service for sin?

 

[BobRyan]

You don't seem to be following @Leaf473 statements very well. He hasn't made the claim that the scapegoat represents Jesus. .

Tall - your avoidance of sola scriptura responses on this subject in favor of your "all Ellen White all the time" agenda is not serving you well.

=============================================
There is obviously a “doubling” principle when it comes to sin’s just recompense.

Rev 18:
4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive any of her plagues; 5 for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her offenses. 6 Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her.

Is 40:
1 “Comfort, comfort My people,” says your God.
2 “Speak kindly to Jerusalem; And call out to her, that her warfare has ended,
That her guilt has been removed, That she has received of the Lord’s hand Double for all her sins.”

Jer 16:
17 For My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their wrongdoing concealed from My eyes. 18 I will first repay them double for their wrongdoing and their sin,

Regardless of how this is measured to the wicked – we can obviously see “double payment” of suffering for sin in the case of the wicked.

1. 1 John 2:2 Christ pays as the “atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins but for the sins of the whole world” – so then "whole world" which means it includes paying for the wicked.
2. Rev 20:13-15 – shows the wicked suffer for their own debt of sin even though Christ already paid for it. Double suffering .
3. Note: The suffering of the wicked is always without salvific merit and lessens no one’s guilt.

Lev 16 in the cases of the scapegoat we see the same sins already fully atoned for with the sin offering and the High Priest mediation in the sanctuary – yet this is also suffered by the wicked.

Lev 16: (The SCAPEGOAT)
20 “When he finishes atoning for the Holy Place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall offer the live goat. 21 Then Aaron shall lay both of his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the wrongdoings of the sons of Israel and all their unlawful acts regarding all their sins; and he shall place them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who stands ready. 22 Then the goat shall carry on itself all their wrongdoings to an isolated territory; he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

26 The one who released the goat as the scapegoat shall wash his clothes and bathe his body with water; then afterward he shall come into the camp. (Because unlike the sin offering - the scapegoat defiles those that touch it while it is alive)

The scapegoat can only represent a wicked entity since it ceremonially “defiles” those that touch it in Lev 16 once sins are placed on it.

The scapegoat ceremonially defiles “ makes unclean” the person that touches it once sin is place on it.

Lev 16: 26 And he that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp..

As much as you try to blame this work for "all the sins" already fully covered in the previous "sin offering" Lev 16:15 - on Ellen White - scripture is clear.

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the atoning cover and in front of the atoning cover. 16 He shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their unlawful acts regarding all their sins; and he shall do so for the tent of meeting which remains with them in the midst of their impurities.

===================

Obviously your arguments for blaming this work done for all the sins of the people with yet another offering AFTER the fully completed "sin offering" in vs 15 - on Ellen White... leaves you missing key details in scripture that you could have seen had you been more open to sola scriptura based study on this point.

 

[BobRyan]

Please note in the title - this is a "sola scriptura" thread as opposed to "I only quote Ellen White in my 'All Ellen White All the time agenda' that some have had.

food for thought.

 

[BobRyan]

So you are telling your audience that they are too ignorant to understand. But they are not. They can read her statements and the Bible.

You are exposed on that point since we both know that SDAs here have had years to read the material she wrote - and your readers only git "snips" and spin-doctoring.

This may be why you object to my choice of sticking with the Bible.

Could one of the Adventists in the thread let us know how often they pray that their sins will be confessed over satan? Do you usually do that before or after you ask Jesus to forgive them and make atonement?

Tell them to pray much that their sins may be confessed upon the head of the scape goat and borne away into the land of forgetfulness.
Lt 8, 1850

you have no quote at all from Ellen White saying " pray that your sins are confessed on the head of satan as your sinless substitute" - and we both know it. The wicked can never be a "sin offering" because they can not lesson anyone's debt/guilt.

A perfect example of your exposing the flaw in your own argument. The above is not quote from anything Ellen White ever published and you know it - but your readers do not. You rely on those that read you not having enough background in the things you quote. It is a private letter that most generations of SDAs would not have seen - yet you throw it up to non-SDAs "as if" -- you think "everything Ellen White said at the dinner table was inspired".

Not even your "stack of books" picture for Ellen White's writtings - includes the things you toss out for non-SDAs.

Good thing this is a "sola scriptura" thread.

 

[BobRyan]

You stated the following verse in post #2.

The washing and sprinkling refers to the daily service where the sinner is confessing sins and being cleansed as a result of the work of Christ - as High Priest in the sanctuary - which is the daily service.

Not sure what you are trying to say in that verse?

Is that because you are not aware that God's model for the sanctuary has both a daily (Holy Place) service and an end-of-year "day of Atonement" - most holy place function?

All of the "Types" for sacrifices collapse into the one sacrifice on the cross where Christ offers up Himself - once for all as the "Atoning sacrifice" for our sins and not for our sins only - but for the sins of the whole world 1 John 2:2

So then all types having "entry" into the sanctuary from the altar of sacrifice where blood offerings were "offered up" - collapse into that one entry into the sanctuary.

But from there the two phase model God defines for us - takes place just as He stated.

Hebrews 10:11-14
Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Christ's atonement was perfect and offered for all sin and forever.

Indeed - all atoning sacrifices in the "types" collapse down into that one sacrifice

How can there be a daily service for sin?

Yes because only in the daily sinners confess , sinners repent, sinners interact with the High Priest for forgiveness as Leviticus and also Heb 9 points out.