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Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

BobRyan

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But then Ellen White invents a final penalty which insults Christ.

Your bend-and-wrench of those quotes into your preferred meaning - not at all convincing to someone who has actually read the material. Did you mean that post "for me"??

1. Christ paid for all the sins of all mankind in all of time on the cross.
2. The wicked suffer for their own debt of sin because they refuse the gospel
3. The suffering of the wicked is not salvific, is not substitutionary, does not diminish the work of Christ (EVEN THOUGH Christ already paid that debt on the cross in the case of wicked 'humans'.)
4. Satan is a wicked being to whom that statement #3 applies in full -- whatever suffering he experiences is not done on anyone else's behalf and does not affect in any way the debt paid by Christ.

Actual Seventh-day Adventists know this is true as would anyone reading our actual statements of belief publically available
 
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BobRyan

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It was not complicated Bob. You say the 28 is what matters. But the 28 refer right back to Ellen White as inspired. .

Which relies on scripture alone to make the statement about spiritual gifts. (For those that actually read the 28 Fundamental beliefs and notice the support used for each one)
 
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tall73

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True but the suffering of the wicked is not salvific and does not relieve anyone else of debt nor result in salvation of anyone nor change the debt paid by Christ.

This is true of all the wicked -- even satan.

And this is the point where you seem to be struggling.

Bob, the point you are struggling over is that you claim Jesus' atonement was insufficient, leaving a penalty to be paid, by a sinful person, for other people's sin.

As @ChetSinger pointed out you don't appear to see an issue with lessening the power of Christ's atonement. However, the statement of Ellen White, which you instinctively tried to change to soften, is in fact terrible.
 
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ChetSinger

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What you don't see in any of the 28 FB is a quote from Ellen White to show that xyz doctrine is a good one --

I am not sure if you are following the discussion at this point at all - with that remark.

Both Tall73 and the SDAs here agree that
1. Christ paid the debt owed for all the sins of all mankind in all of time. That is not even in debate here - you might want to read some of the posts
2. The wicked pay for their full debt of sin - even though Christ already paid it -and the suffering of the wicked is not "substitutionary" it does no one any good - it relieves no one of their sin debt. And "no" that fact does not "diminish the work of Christ" or His death.
3. Satan is an example of a wicked being - his suffering also does not relieve anyone of their sin debt.

All the Adventist documents and posts so far agree that Satan's death is
1. Not a sin offering
2. Not substiutionary
3. Not salvific for anyone
4. Relieves no one of their sin debt.
5. Makes no difference in the debt paid by Christ for all the sins of all of time for all humans.

By not paying attention to the discussion you could come up with almost anything imaginable.
You're speaking to me as if I haven't read Ellen White's own words. That's a little insulting. I have read her own words, and they are heterodox; the sins of the righteous will not be placed upon Satan, as she claims:

As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them upon the head of the scapegoat, so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin. - Great Controversy​

I'm unaware of any denomination in history that has taught that (please correct me if I'm wrong). Therefore, that theology is unique to Ellen White, which makes it heterodox.

It seems you're trying with all your might to make the SDA view of the atonement orthodox. But you can't, not completely anyway, because Ellen White's own words aren't. And her words supposedly speak with "prophetic authority".

I think your denomination should remove her name from those fundamental beliefs. As it stands, you guys are stuck defending every word she wrote.
 
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BobRyan

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What you don't see in any of the 28 FB is a quote from Ellen White to show that xyz doctrine is a good one --

I am not sure if you are following the discussion at this point at all - with that remark.

Both Tall73 and the SDAs here agree that
1. Christ paid the debt owed for all the sins of all mankind in all of time. That is not even in debate here - you might want to read some of the posts
2. The wicked pay for their full debt of sin - even though Christ already paid it -and the suffering of the wicked is not "substitutionary" it does no one any good - it relieves no one of their sin debt. And "no" that fact does not "diminish the work of Christ" or His death.
3. Satan is an example of a wicked being - his suffering also does not relieve anyone of their sin debt.

All the Adventist documents and posts so far agree that Satan's death is
1. Not a sin offering
2. Not substiutionary
3. Not salvific for anyone
4. Relieves no one of their sin debt.
5. Makes no difference in the debt paid by Christ for all the sins of all of time for all humans.

By not paying attention to the discussion you could come up with almost anything imaginable.

“As the cross of Calvary, with its infinite sacrifice for the sins of men, was revealed, they saw that nothing but the merits of Christ could suffice to atone for their transgressions; this alone could reconcile man to God. With faith and humility they accepted the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. Through the blood of Jesus they had “remission of sins that are past.” {GC 461.1}

You're speaking to me as if I haven't read Ellen White's own words. That's a little insulting.

I am speaking to you as if you have not been following the details in this discussion very closely.

Turns out... details matter. Name-calling "not so much".

her own words, and they are heterodox;

All the Adventist documents and posts so far agree that Satan's death is
1. Not a sin offering
2. Not substiutionary
3. Not salvific for anyone
4. Relieves no one of their sin debt.
5. Makes no difference in the debt paid by Christ for all the sins of all of time for all humans.

you have free will and can use whatever language you like - but the facts aren't changing.

the sins of the righteous will not be placed upon Satan, as she claims:

You don't appear to know what she meant by that from your language so far.

I have done my best to make this easy...

1. Christ paid for all the sins of all mankind in all of time on the cross.
2. The wicked suffer for their own debt of sin because they refuse the gospel
3. The suffering of the wicked is not salvific, is not substitutionary, does not diminish the work of Christ (EVEN THOUGH Christ already paid that debt on the cross in the case of wicked 'humans'.)
4. Satan is a wicked being to whom that statement #3 applies in full -- whatever suffering he experiences is not done on anyone else's behalf and does not affect in any way the debt paid by Christ.

Actual Seventh-day Adventists know this is true as would anyone reading our actual statements of belief publically available and we find this to fit perfectly with the statements quoted here so far.

It seems you're trying with all your might to make the SDA view of the atonement orthodox. .

I am stating our beliefs flat out as they are. Even Tall73 knows it.

I don't care what names you choose when you label our beliefs on Ex 20:8-11 on the Sabbath, or our beliefs on Lev 11 regarding Bible-approved foods or our belief on Lev 16 to be - my interest is in stating them accurately.

Everything I have said is in-line with what our 28 Fundamental beliefs say - and what has been quoted on this thread.

As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them upon the head of the scapegoat, so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin. - Great Controversy .​
Context matters as it turns out. That statement in the book "The Great Controversy" is about the punishment given to Satan and "in context" is only done after Christ's work of paying for all sins for all mankind on the cross via His full and complete atoning sacrifice on the cross, and after Christ's work of showing who it is that has accepted His atoning sacrifice full and complete on the cross - and who has rejected it.

No amount of suffering on Satan's part that comes after all of that changes even one iota of Christ's suffering and death on the cross for all mankind nor does it relieve any soul of man of any suffering - whatsoever. That is in fact what Adventists believe.

These details remain no matter the spin-doctoring others have attempted in their bend-and-wrench of certain phrases.
 
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BobRyan

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If you are waiting for non-SDAs to post these quotes --- you may have a while "to wait".
===========================================

"His offering of Himself was full and ample. Nothing was wanting. It was indeed a whole and ample atonement that was made. Then why ... indicate by words and example that Christ has died for you in vain? After the exhibitions of love that was without a parallel, you say by your words of doubt and mournful discouragement, “He does not love me. He will not forgive me. My sins are of too hard a character to be cured by the blood of Jesus. The offering is not of sufficient value to pay the debt I owe for the rescue of my soul.” {OHC 136.4}

"I want to lift up my voice for Jesus and say, Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. Go forth from the cave by faith. Look to Jesus, your helper. Behold the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world. Look to your atoning Sacrifice lifted up upon the cross, the Innocent dying for the guilty. . . . {OHC 136.3}

“As the cross of Calvary, with its infinite sacrifice for the sins of men, was revealed, they saw that nothing but the merits of Christ could suffice to atone for their transgressions; this alone could reconcile man to God. With faith and humility they accepted the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. Through the blood of Jesus they had “remission of sins that are past.” {GC 461.1}

"The subject is inexhaustible. The study of the incarnation of Christ, His atoning sacrifice and mediatorial work, will employ the mind of the diligent student as long as time shall last; and looking to heaven with its unnumbered years he will exclaim, “Great is the mystery of godliness.” {COL 133.4}

"All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life … Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33. {GC 483.2}

Do you realize your sinfulness? Do you despise sin? Then remember that the righteousness of Christ is yours if you will grasp it. Can you not see what a strong foundation is placed beneath your feet when you accept Christ? God has accepted the offering of his Son as a complete atonement for the sins of the world. {YI September 20, 1900, par. 8}

Through the untiring ministrations of the apostles to the Gentiles, the “strangers and foreigners,” who “sometimes were far off,” learned that they had been “made nigh by the blood of Christ,” and that through faith in His atoning sacrifice they might become “fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.” Ephesians 2:12, 13, 19. {AA 175.1}

========================

Those who rely on spin-doctoring and the bend-and-wrench methods to convey false views - are often reluctant to share such statements - and in fact try and dismiss them rather than allowing them to "inform their claims" about what the real full-and-in-context view is for that author..
 
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BobRyan

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Bob, the point you are struggling over is that you claim Jesus' atonement was insufficient, .

totally false since obviously the second-death suffering of the wicked does not "relieve the debt owed by someone else who then does not have to pay it" . (a position you seem to have imagined so far - but not one held by Adventists, and we both know it).

You confuse the suffering of the wicked with the atonement of Christ as if somehow the wicked are providing a sin offering, a substitutionary atonement for others. A totally false view.

If you are waiting for non-SDAs to post these quotes --- you may have a while "to wait".
===========================================

"His offering of Himself was full and ample. Nothing was wanting. It was indeed a whole and ample atonement that was made. Then why ... indicate by words and example that Christ has died for you in vain? After the exhibitions of love that was without a parallel, you say by your words of doubt and mournful discouragement, “He does not love me. He will not forgive me. My sins are of too hard a character to be cured by the blood of Jesus. The offering is not of sufficient value to pay the debt I owe for the rescue of my soul.” {OHC 136.4}

"I want to lift up my voice for Jesus and say, Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. Go forth from the cave by faith. Look to Jesus, your helper. Behold the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world. Look to your atoning Sacrifice lifted up upon the cross, the Innocent dying for the guilty. . . . {OHC 136.3}


"The subject is inexhaustible. The study of the incarnation of Christ, His atoning sacrifice and mediatorial work, will employ the mind of the diligent student as long as time shall last; and looking to heaven with its unnumbered years he will exclaim, “Great is the mystery of godliness.” {COL 133.4}

"All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life … Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33. {GC 483.2}

Do you realize your sinfulness? Do you despise sin? Then remember that the righteousness of Christ is yours if you will grasp it. Can you not see what a strong foundation is placed beneath your feet when you accept Christ? God has accepted the offering of his Son as a complete atonement for the sins of the world. {YI September 20, 1900, par. 8}

Through the untiring ministrations of the apostles to the Gentiles, the “strangers and foreigners,” who “sometimes were far off,” learned that they had been “made nigh by the blood of Christ,” and that through faith in His atoning sacrifice they might become “fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.” Ephesians 2:12, 13, 19. {AA 175.1}

========================

Those who rely on spin-doctoring and the bend-and-wrench methods to convey false views - are often reluctant to share such statements - and in fact try and dismiss them rather than allowing them to "inform their claims" about what the real full-and-in-context view is for that author..

As @ChetSinger pointed out you don't appear to see an issue with lessening the power of Christ's atonement. .

Some non-SDAs here are trying to confuse other non-SDAs on that point. But the facts do not support that spin-doctoring. As noted above.
 
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tall73

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false.

You confuse the suffering of the wicked with the atonement of Christ as if somehow the wicked are providing a sin offering, a substitutionary atonement for others. A totally false view.

The totally false view is Ellen White's view, when she stated that a penalty was yet to be paid for the sins of God's people, when Jesus already paid it.
 
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BobRyan

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Only in the sense of his part in "causing" in "tempting" to get them committed.

Every case was decided, every jewel numbered. Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly Sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while he was in the Most Holy place, he placed back upon the originator of sin, the Devil. He must suffer the punishment of these sins. {1SG 198.1}

In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God’s people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit. And as the scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, so Satan will be banished to the desolate earth, an uninhabited and dreary wilderness. {GC 658.1}

"so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God’s people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate, without inhabitant, and he will at last suffer the full penalty of sin, in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. Thus the great plan of redemption will reach its accomplishment in the final eradication of sin, and the deliverance of all who have been willing to renounce evil." {GC 485.3}

As the sin offering - atoning and substitutionary:
  • Christ having paid the debt of all sin for all humans that have ever lived..

NOT as a sin offering - NOT atoning or substitutionary
  • all the wicked - each paying for their own debt of sin.
  • Satan also paying his full debt for sins he causes including the added debt of the sin he instigates among the saints.

But he is then to be deprived of his power and left to reflect upon the part which he has acted since his fall, and to look forward with trembling and terror to the dreadful future, when he must suffer for all the evil that he has done and be punished for all the sins that he has caused to be committed. {SR 416.1}



Agreed and when you consider that even Tall73 agrees with me that Adventists teach (And that includes Ellen White) that Christ paid the debt of sin for all sins that all humans in all of time have ever committed -- AND that Adventists do not teach that the scapegoat is a sin offering at all - there is no other option left other than satan paying for his guilt in tempting others where there is added guilt, added debt owed, in tempting the saints who are not of satan's kingdom.

Now let's suppose for a second that we give Tall73 the benefit of the doubt and agree that all Adventist agree to believe whatever Tall73 says about that added debt being the full debt owed for the sins of the saints.

That would mean that by even Tall73's confession - he admits we teach that
1. all sin for all humans: paid by Christ, though the wicked do not benefit from that
2. the wicked pay for their own sin,though it was already paid for by Christ
3. Satan pays the debt of all his own sin...which of course was not for paid by Christ
4. and then to Satan is added the full debt of sin already paid by Christ for the saints. Yet Satan's suffering is not as a "sin offering" not to 'benefit others' but rather "just more debt piled on Satan" even though Christ already fully paid it in atoning substitutionary form freeing the saints from it.​

At BEST I don't see how Tall73 gets more mileage than that out of his idea.
At BEST he could complain that this is "unfair" to Satan.

If you can't even say what she said

Your spin doctoring is getting out of control - I am quoting your favorite author in these posts.
 
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BobRyan

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The totally false view is Ellen White's view, when she stated that a penalty was yet to be paid for the sins of God's people, when Jesus already paid it.

read the posts

If you are waiting for non-SDAs to post these quotes --- you may have a while "to wait".
===========================================

"His offering of Himself was full and ample. Nothing was wanting. It was indeed a whole and ample atonement that was made. Then why ... indicate by words and example that Christ has died for you in vain? After the exhibitions of love that was without a parallel, you say by your words of doubt and mournful discouragement, “He does not love me. He will not forgive me. My sins are of too hard a character to be cured by the blood of Jesus. The offering is not of sufficient value to pay the debt I owe for the rescue of my soul.” {OHC 136.4}

"I want to lift up my voice for Jesus and say, Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. Go forth from the cave by faith. Look to Jesus, your helper. Behold the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world. Look to your atoning Sacrifice lifted up upon the cross, the Innocent dying for the guilty. . . . {OHC 136.3}


"The subject is inexhaustible. The study of the incarnation of Christ, His atoning sacrifice and mediatorial work, will employ the mind of the diligent student as long as time shall last; and looking to heaven with its unnumbered years he will exclaim, “Great is the mystery of godliness.” {COL 133.4}

"All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life … Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33. {GC 483.2}

Do you realize your sinfulness? Do you despise sin? Then remember that the righteousness of Christ is yours if you will grasp it. Can you not see what a strong foundation is placed beneath your feet when you accept Christ? God has accepted the offering of his Son as a complete atonement for the sins of the world. {YI September 20, 1900, par. 8}

Through the untiring ministrations of the apostles to the Gentiles, the “strangers and foreigners,” who “sometimes were far off,” learned that they had been “made nigh by the blood of Christ,” and that through faith in His atoning sacrifice they might become “fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.” Ephesians 2:12, 13, 19. {AA 175.1}

========================

Those who rely on spin-doctoring and the bend-and-wrench methods to convey false views - are often reluctant to share such statements - and in fact try and dismiss them rather than allowing them to "inform their claims" about what the real full-and-in-context view is for that author..

She never claims that anyone else's debt is relieved by the suffering of the wicked or adding more suffering to Satan. The wicked do not die a substitutionary death according to Ellen White, according to the Bible, according to Adventists . You are relying on your "spin" alone for that.

You have "set certain expectations" for your readers here and they will be surprised to see what the real truth is in these more full context views.
 
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tall73

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read the posts


We already read the posts that said the opposite. Your assertion is that Ellen White makes sense with Ellen White. That is not an assumption I share.

She stated that satan had to pay for the sins of God's people. That is a denial of the same principle she stated in the other statements.
 
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BobRyan

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5 minutes ago #670

you were refuted already --

If you are waiting for non-SDAs to post these quotes --- you may have a while "to wait".
===========================================

"His offering of Himself was full and ample. Nothing was wanting. It was indeed a whole and ample atonement that was made. Then why ... indicate by words and example that Christ has died for you in vain? After the exhibitions of love that was without a parallel, you say by your words of doubt and mournful discouragement, “He does not love me. He will not forgive me. My sins are of too hard a character to be cured by the blood of Jesus. The offering is not of sufficient value to pay the debt I owe for the rescue of my soul.” {OHC 136.4}

"I want to lift up my voice for Jesus and say, Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. Go forth from the cave by faith. Look to Jesus, your helper. Behold the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world. Look to your atoning Sacrifice lifted up upon the cross, the Innocent dying for the guilty. . . . {OHC 136.3}


"The subject is inexhaustible. The study of the incarnation of Christ, His atoning sacrifice and mediatorial work, will employ the mind of the diligent student as long as time shall last; and looking to heaven with its unnumbered years he will exclaim, “Great is the mystery of godliness.” {COL 133.4}

"All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life … Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33. {GC 483.2}

Do you realize your sinfulness? Do you despise sin? Then remember that the righteousness of Christ is yours if you will grasp it. Can you not see what a strong foundation is placed beneath your feet when you accept Christ? God has accepted the offering of his Son as a complete atonement for the sins of the world. {YI September 20, 1900, par. 8}

Through the untiring ministrations of the apostles to the Gentiles, the “strangers and foreigners,” who “sometimes were far off,” learned that they had been “made nigh by the blood of Christ,” and that through faith in His atoning sacrifice they might become “fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.” Ephesians 2:12, 13, 19. {AA 175.1}

========================

Those who rely on spin-doctoring and the bend-and-wrench methods to convey false views - are often reluctant to share such statements - and in fact try and dismiss them rather than allowing them to "inform their claims" about what the real full-and-in-context view is for that author..

She never claims that anyone else's debt is relieved by the suffering of the wicked or adding more suffering to Satan. The wicked do not die a substitutionary death according to Ellen White, according to the Bible, according to Adventists . You are relying on your "spin" alone for that.

You have "set certain expectations" for your readers here and they will be surprised to see what the real truth is in these more full context views.
 
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tall73

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You have "set certain expectations" for your readers here and they will be surprised to see what the real truth is in these more full context views.

Oh did I? I said Adventists claim that Jesus sacrifice is for the sins of the whole world. And they do say that.

And then Ellen White said satan must pay the final penalty for the sins of God's people. That is of course a denial of the other statement. Because it denies that Jesus' atonement was sufficient for those who accepted it, and another had to pay the final penalty.

So their expectations were accurate, and the statements backed them up.
 
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tall73

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Your spin doctoring is getting out of control - I am quoting your favorite author in these posts.

I notice you left a few out Bob.

He sees that the day of atonement has a bearing on his life; that the scapegoat chosen to bear the sins of the people represents himself; that he must bear the sins of all who come to Jesus; and that those who continue in transgression must bear their own sins.

It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty.


Christ's work for the redemption of men and the purification of the universe from sin will be closed by the removal of sin from the heavenly sanctuary and the placing of these sins upon Satan, who will bear the final penalty.


She says he must bear the penalty for the sins of God's people Bob, not just his own.


See, you want us to take her statements on the atonement as proof she didn't say the other. But she did say the other. And we all see it. And it indicates he bears all the sins of the those who come to Jesus, not just his own sin of temptation. Her statements on atonement are not consistent with her statement about satan bearing the sins of God's people. Jesus already did that.









 
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LoveGodsWord

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Oh did I? I said Adventists claim that Jesus sacrifice is for the sins of the whole world. And they do say that.

And then Ellen White said satan must pay the final penalty for the sins of God's people. That is of course a denial of the other statement. Because it denies that Jesus' atonement was sufficient for those who accepted it, and another had to pay the final penalty.

So their expectations were accurate, and the statements backed them up.

Sadly Tall, your twisting the meanings of these EGW statements to try and make them say things they do not say. Paying the penalty for sin is not the same as having your sins forgiven and cleansed through blood sacrifice purchased by "the Lords goat" with intercession from the Great High Priest (Jesus) as shown to you through the scriptures already. Transferring the sins to "the scapegoat" (Azazel - "Remove" "Fallen Angel") is where the sins of Gods' people go after blood sacrifice is completed (Leviticus 16:20-22) and already purchased by "the Lords goat". Your interpretation of these EGW statements are twisting the application and meanings of these statements and providing a meaning to them that they do not say. Though this I guess is nothing new when it comes to the SOP and our past conversations.

Take Care
 
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tall73

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No, sadly your twisting the meanings of these statements to try and make them say things they do not say. Paying the penalty for sin is not the same as having your sins forgiven and cleansed through blood sacrifice purchased by "the Lords goat" with intercession from the Great High Priest (Jesus). Transferring the sins to "the scapegoat" (Azazel - "Remove" "Fallen Angel") is where the sins of Gods' people go after blood sacrifice is completed (Leviticus 16:20-22) By this time the final atonement was already completed. You statements are twisting the application and meaning of the SOP statement your providing and putting a meaning on them that they do not say. Though this I guess is nothing new when it comes to the SOP and our past conversations.

Take Care


You have always accused people of "twisting". But of course when she says satan must pay the penalty for the sins of God's people that is ignoring that Jesus already did.

No one need twist her statements. They are all reading her statements. And her statements are sick.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You have always accused people of "twisting". But of course when she says satan must pay the penalty for the sins of God's people that is ignoring that Jesus already did.

No one need twist her statements. They are all reading her statements. And her statements are sick.

Yet I believe that is exactly what your doing with those EGW statements as shown through the scriptures shared with you. In our scripture discussions you were shown how those statement fit scripture but not your interpretation you have applied to those statements. Your trying to apply a different meaning to those EGW statements that they are not saying in my personal view as shown in the scriptures already shared with you. If people understand the two ministrations of sin atonement of the Priesthood and sin offerings in the daily and yearly services of the Sanctuary, then they would view your claims on these statements differently. Sadly I see there is not too many people around that understands the old covenant ministrations of the Sanctuary Priestood and the scriptures showing how the Sanctuary system works. The "sick" is in your interpretation of those statements as they are not saying what you are claiming they are saying!
 
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tall73

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Yet that is exactly what your doing with those EGW statements as shown through the scriptures shared with you. Your applying meaning to them they are not saying. If people understand the two ministrations of sin atonement of the Priesthood and sin offerings in the daily and yearly services of the Sanctuary, then they would view your claims on these statements differently. Sadly there is not too many people around that understand these scriptures and how the Sanctuary system works.


Ah yes, if only they understood why satan would need to pay a penalty Jesus already paid for His people who accepted His atonement. Except they do understand, and her statement was wrong.

 
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LoveGodsWord

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Ah yes, if only they understood why satan would need to pay a penalty Jesus already paid for His people who accepted His atonement. Except they do understand, and her statement was wrong.

Respectfully, I believe your not applying the intended meaning of those statements to be honest and applying an interpretation to them that they are not saying or what has been intended in writing them. Understanding the scriptures that I have shared with you already brings a different interpretation to all those EGW statements you have provided which all agree with the scriptures that have been shared with you so far.

I personally believe that the interpretation your applying to these statements do not agree with the scriptures shared with you on the roles the two lot cast goats in the day of atonement. Of the two goats, "the Lords goat" is the only one that is used for blood sacrifice and the ministration of the high Priest in the final atonement and the cleansing of the Sanctuary for all the sins of Gods' people. It was not until this was completed that all sin was transferred to "the scapegoat" (Azazel - "Remove" "Fallen Angel") for the removal of all sin from the presence of God.

Every statement you have provided so far only supports what has been shared with you from the scriptures. Anyhow, I guess we will agree to disagree.

Take Care.
 
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Leaf473

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"The final penalty" as in
  • The sinner pays for his own debt of sin
  • Those who in this life conspired to get the sinner to commit the sin - pay their penalty in that act.
  • Satan the final and ultimate instigator pays for his part
Right, so Satan pays for his part.

We've been talking at length recently about the role Satan has, if any, in removing sin from God's presence.

If Satan will at some time remove sin from God's presence, does that involve paying a penalty for that sin in some way?
 
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