Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

[BobRyan]

Your sin is your sin. It is not satan's sin. His sin of temptation is his sin.

'

And yet his sin of tempting someone not of his kingdom incurs greater debt than his sin of tempting someone in his kingdom

 

[tall73]

In that statement I say the wicked chose Satan and the saints do not choose him. I don't see how that is some sort of argument against the saints having free will.

Then their sin is their own.

The point is that Satan is doing "worse" (has more to pay for ) when tempting the servants of Christ's kingdom to sin - than when tempting his own servants to sin since they already choose him.

Bob, do you have any sins that you committed that satan didn't make you do?

The question is not "what are his servants guilty of " since they themselves are already doomed and paying for it - the question is "what additional guilt" belongs to Satan in that case - and the answer is that he is guilty for all that he does in causing people to sin - but he has greater guilt when tempting those not in his kingdom since that is a greater wrong. To know what that is exactly - would require first identifying those not in his kingdom.

your guilt calculus for satan is quite an endeavor. But unless you wind up with every sin the saints ever did was all satan's doing, and they played no roll, then you still haven't explained how satan can take on the sins of God's people.

 

[BobRyan]

tall73 said: ↑
Bob, do you think Jesus only removed some of the sins from the sanctuary, the ones satan CAUSED you to commit? Did he only place some of the sins on satan? .

Jesus paid the debt of sin for all humans that have ever lived - see 1 John 2:2 (you and I both know that this is what Adventists teach)

You are creating a story about Christ not paying for sin if someone else pays ... so then not paying for the wicked since they pay for their own debt of sin and then not paying for the righteous because in your view Satan pays a substitutionary atoning death for all the sins of all the saints instead of Christ in your spin of the Adventist doctrine. That leaves you with claiming that Adventist's think Christ pays for no sin at all - even though you have to start out admitting that Adventist's actually teach that Christ paid for all sin of all humans that have ever lived weather saints or not.

You have a very confusing suggestion at that point.

But not all humans that have ever lived are availed of that payment since not all choose the gospel.

Satan is the originator of all sin - and has responsibility for his part in all of it. But his guilt is greater when he harasses those not in his kingdom than just when he tempts and harasses those in his kingdom.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, do you have any sins that you committed that satan didn't make you do?

Satan as the first cause for sin - as the devil - has some measure of guilt for all sin.. That is not the same thing as me saying "Satan made everyone sin and nobody has free will" -- not sure how you get there.

 

[tall73]

tall73 said: ↑

Your sin is your sin. It is not satan's sin. His sin of temptation is his sin.

'

And yet his sin of tempting someone not of his kingdom incurs greater debt than his sin of tempting someone in his kingdom

Hey Bob, Ellen White said that the sins of God's people were placed on satan. Your explanation of that so far has been to ignore that and talk about satan's greater responsibility--his own sin.

Please get to the point where you address what she said about why satan would bear the sins of God's people if Jesus already did and paid the price.

 

[BobRyan]

your guilt calculus for satan is quite an endeavor.

Looks a lot like Luke 12 doesn't it?

Your efforts to assign "zero guilt" to someone who commits sin as they are tempted by satan to sin - is your own work. Adventists don't believe in that - good luck though.

 

[BobRyan]

of God's people were placed on satan. Your explanation of that so far has been to ignore that

Until you read my post where even she says it is "his guilt - for what HE has caused". Each one is guilty of their own sins and sometime that sin includes the sin of tempting or training others to sin.

Your argument amounts to "I believe Adventists should be believing some odd thing about the future and the scapegoat that they don't believe .. and they won't agree with me". How is that helping you?

==================================

Jesus paid the debt of sin for all humans that have ever lived - see 1 John 2:2 (you and I both know that this is what Adventists teach)

You are creating a story about Christ not paying for sin if someone else pays ... so then not paying for the wicked since they pay for their own debt of sin and then not paying for the righteous because in your view Satan pays a substitutionary atoning death for all the sins of all the saints instead of Christ in your spin of the Adventist doctrine. That leaves you with claiming that Adventist's think Christ pays for no sin at all - even though you have to start out admitting that Adventist's actually teach that Christ paid for all sin of all humans that have ever lived weather saints or not.

You have a very confusing suggestion at that point.

 

[Leaf473]

well you have free will and can think whatever you wish.

Lev 16 says it is about "The Day of Atonement" which is God's teaching on that subject in symbols and types just as the Passover is God's teaching about the cross of Christ in symbols and types. You are free to reject whatever you wish.

Yes, we all have free will to think what we want, don't we?

I agree that God teaches us in symbols and types.

But every aspect of those symbols and types don't necessarily have to have a correspondence in the real world imo.

In the Passover story, what does pharaoh or Pharaoh's son symbolize? Do they have to correspond to a particular being today?

Myself, I don't think so. It's not rejecting God's word, just a particular interpretation imo.

 

[tall73]

Jesus paid the debt of sin for all humans that have ever lived - see 1 John 2:2

Agreed!

But not all humans that have ever lived are availed of that payment since not all choose the gospel.

Agreed again.

Satan is the originator of all sin - and has responsibility for his part in all of it. But his guilt is greater when he harasses those not in his kingdom than just when he tempts and harasses those in his kingdom.

Sorry Bob, you failed to address the question again. Ellen White says that satan bears the sins of God's people.

His guilt is his guilt. We are waiting for you to address the part where she says the sins of the people of God are placed on him.

How can satan bear the guilt of others? And why would He when Jesus already did that for His own people?

 

[tall73]

Looks a lot like Luke 12 doesn't it?

Your efforts to assign "zero guilt" to someone tempted by satan - is your own work. Adventists don't believe in that - good luck though.

Bob, quite the opposite! I am saying everyone who chose sin is guilty of sin. Satan is guilty of his sin, including the sin of temptation.

But Ellen White says that satan has the sins of God's people place on him.

You didn't think we would get confused about the actual question did you?

You have sin Bob. No doubt about it. It is your sin. Jesus paid for it. And if you put your faith in Him it is already paid on your behalf.

So why would your sin, paid by Jesus, be placed on satan Bob, since he must pay for his own sin and cannot take your sin on him.

 

[Leaf473]

Are you defining that term in your own mind in the same way as she did or are you talking about apples and oranges only giving them the same name?

Since I have no way of getting inside of her head I can't say for sure.

In the quotes that I read earlier it looked like she was saying that Satan pays the final penalty for the sins of God's people.

What is the standard SDA theology on the subject?

 

[tall73]

Until you read my post where even she says it is "his guilt - for what HE has caused". Each one is guilty of their own sins and sometime that sin includes the sin of tempting or training others to sin.

Bob.....either you have a very short memory, or you are neglecting to mention a few things.

When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, must bear the final penalty.

She says he has the sins of God's people placed on him. You have not explained how that works. satan can't take on your sin. He is punished for his own sin.

Your argument amounts to "I believe Adventists should be believing some odd thing about the future and the scapegoat that they don't believe .. and they won't agree with me". How is that helping you?

No Bob. I am quoting from Ellen White who says that the sins of God's people are placed on satan. And you are trying to not address how that can be. How can satan bear anyone's sins but his own?

Satan as the first cause for sin - as the devil - has some measure of guilt for all sin. That is not the same thing as me saying "Satan made everyone sin and nobody has free will" -- not sure how you get there.

Now Bob, I didn't think you believe that no one has free will. But you were arguing as though that were the case.

So we are back to the question. You have free will. You sinned. You trust in Christ and His death for you.

GREAT! Jesus bore your sins and paid the price, and died for you.

Now why would satan have YOUR sins, that you chose, with your free will, placed on him, when Jesus already died for it?

satan has his sins. He can't take yours. And Jesus already did.

 

[Leaf473]

There is an easy answer posted

I don't think your post will tell me what LGW believes, though.

In your understanding of White's writings, does she believe that Satan pays the price for our sin when he is finally destroyed?

 

[Leaf473]

indeed - foxes lions, snakes etc all die over time.. but that does not make them a "sin offering", the "difference" matters because "details matter".

True! And another thing that doesn't match up with the story in Revelation 20:1-3

 

[BobRyan]

tall73 said: ↑

Jesus is the High Priest already and kills the Lord's goat

You are going to have to spell that out a bit more Bob.

Do you disagree the high priest represents Jesus?

Do you disagree the Lord's goat represents Jesus?

Do you disagree that Jesus laid down His own life?

Isaac laid down his life - but did not offer to kill himself.

Jesus is both high priest and lamb of God - but as Hebrews 8 points out - Jesus on Earth "is not a priest at all".

He did not slay himself as high priest. Rather he is the lamb in that picture - . He is the High priest when it comes to sprinkling the blood and mediating,

He does not offering himself by killing himself - he offers himself up on the altar "as the sacrifice".

 

[BobRyan]

That kind of sounds like what White believed. Is that what you believe?

There is an easy answer posted

here is an "easy" answer to understand the issue regarding satan's guilt and his debt owed -- #558

I like the fact that we can get to the easy part so quickly in our conversations together.

I don't think your post will tell me what LGW believes, though.

Agreed - I am not speaking for someone else - I am speaking to the point you raised. If your real intent has nothing to do with that point - but simply working LGW into a corner or something.. well I am not part of that.

In your understanding of White's writings, does she believe that Satan pays the price for our sin when he is finally destroyed?

He pays for his own debt incurred by tempting us to do that sin.

 

[tall73]

You are creating a story about Christ not paying for sin if someone else pays ... so then not paying for the wicked since they pay for their own debt of sin and then not paying for the righteous because in your view Satan pays a substitutionary atoning death for all the sins of all the saints instead of Christ in your spin of the Adventist doctrine.

Incorrect. We both believe Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world. And with both believe not all accept it.

And yes, we believe since the wicked don't accept it, they pay for their own sin.

And then I believe that since the righteous do accept it, Jesus paid for their sin. And you seem to be indicating that as well. Which is great.

Then you go on and say Ellen White is inspired, and she states the sins of God's people are placed on satan. And that makes no sense with any of the above, or the Scriptures. satan bears his own sin. He has no substitute. He is punished for it. Jesus bore the sins of His people.

So I am saying your Ellen-White statement is wrong. Ellen White saying satan takes on the sins of God's people is sick and should be immediately renounced. But you won't renounce it. And instead of explaining how it can be, or why it would be since Jesus already paid for it, you start talking about the percent of guilt satan plays in a particular sinful act, and won't address how the sins of God's people are placed on satan per Ellen White.

That leaves you with claiming that Adventist's think Christ pays for no sin at all - even though you have to start out admitting that Adventist's actually teach that Christ paid for all sin of all humans that have ever lived weather saints or not.

NO! It leaves me saying you are correct Christ pays for the sins of all, and Ellen White's statement is blasphemous non-sense, so get rid of it!

Satan is the originator of all sin - and has responsibility for his part in all of it. But his guilt is greater when he harasses those not in his kingdom than just when he tempts and harasses those in his kingdom.

Which does not at all answer the question of how he takes on the sins of God's people which are their sins.

 

[BobRyan]

True! And another thing that doesn't match up with the story in Revelation 20:1-3

Agreed - Rev 20 says nothing about foxes dying of old age or predation or disease. It does not refute it - but also does not address it.

 

[Leaf473]

God gave Ellen White a number of messages for the church -- many volumes written on that as Tall73 points out with that picture he posts. Still the denomination has 28 statements of belief not thousands, in the same way that every sentence in the NT is not "another statement of belief" for any Christian denomination on planet Earth. Which is not a claim that all of the NT is a contradiction to those statements of belief. So this is not the part that is "new".

As for non-SDAs accepting Ellen White as a prophet - I don't think that happens very much. Usually they study SDA doctrine from the Bible - and if they accept then only later would they read the messages given to Ellen White to see if she was a prophet.

White is considered always reliable, then?

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus paid the debt of sin for all humans that have ever lived - see 1 John 2:2 (you and I both know that this is what Adventists teach)

You are creating a story about Christ not paying for sin if someone else pays ... so then not paying for the wicked since they pay for their own debt of sin and then not paying for the righteous because in your view Satan pays a substitutionary atoning death for all the sins of all the saints instead of Christ in your spin of the Adventist doctrine. That leaves you with claiming that Adventist's think Christ pays for no sin at all - even though you have to start out admitting that Adventist's actually teach that Christ paid for all sin of all humans that have ever lived weather saints or not.

You have a very confusing suggestion at that point.

We both believe Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world. And with both believe not all accept it.

And yes, we believe since the wicked don't accept it, they pay for their own sin.

And then I believe that since the righteous do accept it, Jesus paid for their sin. And you seem to be indicating that as well. Which is great.

Agreed I keep pointing that out. We both know that is what Adventists teach.

Then you go on and say Ellen White is inspired, and she states the sins of God's people are placed on satan.

And I show how this is her own reference to the Lev 16 actions related to the scapegoat that is NOT a sin offering (stated repeatedly) and that she says he pays for HIS guilt in tempting them to that sin.

And that makes no sense with any of the above

Well I am not sure how you get to that point.

"so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God’s people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate, without inhabitant, and he will at last suffer the full penalty of sin, in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. Thus the great plan of redemption will reach its accomplishment in the final eradication of sin, and the deliverance of all who have been willing to renounce evil." {GC 485.3}​

The Bible does not teach that the scapegoat is "the sin offering" rather only the Lord's goat in Lev 16 is "the sin offering" -- only it dies a substitutionary atoning death on behalf of others. Nor does the Bible teach that sins are removed from the Lord’s goat before it is slain – and placed on the scapegoat. (Nor does the 28 FB beliefs say that - nor do official SDA statements say it - no not even ones from Ellen White (your favorite source apparently) -- The scapegoat is not a sin offering.