Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

[BobRyan]

Jesus already applied all the blood.

nope. He shed all the blood on Calvary - but no case by case review was done there to see who would be availed of it - and no indication that all saints in all of time interacted with Christ while on earth to get their specific sins forgiven

He entered once for all by means of His own blood, and appeared in God's presence for us

And it is there that He remains...

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

He offered His blood once for all - on the cross - where the sin offering is "offered up" by the High Priest every day - as Heb 7 points.

Heb 7:
He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is also able to save forever those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself


Exodus 29:18
You shall offer up in smoke the whole ram on the altar; it is a burnt offering to the Lord: it is a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord.

Exodus 30:20

when they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they will not die; or when they approach the altar to minister, by offering up in smoke a fire sacrifice to the Lord.



"Offer UP sacrifices" as we see the High Priest doing "daily" in Heb 7 above - as in "offer up in smoke" on the altar of burnt offering.

the general rule is stated in Ex 30: -- burnt offerings (fire sacrifice) is “offered up in smoke”

17 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 18 “You shall also make a basin of bronze, with its base of bronze, for washing; and you shall put it between the tent of meeting and the altar, and you shall put water in it. 19 Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet from it; 20 when they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they do not die; or when they approach the altar to minister, by offering up in smoke a fire sacrifice to the Lord. 21 So they shall wash their hands and their feet, so that they do not die; and it shall be a permanent statute for them, for Aaron and his descendants throughout their generations.”

Lev 4: The Daily service where individuals confess sins, and claim blood sacrifice atonement - and receive forgiveness -- all during the ceremonial year.

27 ‘Now if anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, and becomes guilty, 28 if his sin which he has committed is made known to him, then he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without defect, for his sin which he has committed. 29 He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering. 30 The priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and all the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar. 31 Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat was removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall offer it up in smoke on the altar for a soothing aroma to the Lord. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

32 ‘But if he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring it, a female without defect. 33 He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they slay the burnt offering. 34 The priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and all the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar. 35 Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offerings, and the priest shall offer them up in smoke on the altar, on the offerings by fire to the Lord. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin which he has committed, and he will be forgiven.

 

[BobRyan]

tall73 said: ↑
The priest standing daily offering the same sacrifices refers to the blood ministration.

Jesus not only died as the sacrifice but offered the blood as priest for His once for all sacrifice

"Offered up" on the cross.

He offered His blood once for all - on the cross - where the sin offering is "offered up" by the High Priest every day - as Heb 7 points.

Heb 7:
He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is also able to save forever those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself


Exodus 29:18
You shall offer up in smoke the whole ram on the altar; it is a burnt offering to the Lord: it is a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord.

Exodus 30:20

when they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they will not die; or when they approach the altar to minister, by offering up in smoke a fire sacrifice to the Lord.


"Offer UP sacrifices" as we see the High Priest doing "daily" in Heb 7 above - as in "offer up in smoke" on the altar of burnt offering.


=============================

Jesus not only died as the sacrifice but offered the blood as priest for His once for all sacrifice, then sat down, in contrast to the earthly priest who had to keep ministering sacrifices again and again that never took away sins.

Christ sits as High Priest - on His throne - doing His work as High Priest.

Zech 6
12"Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD.

13"Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices."

Our High Priest is seated as High Priest - "at the right hand of the Father" Heb 8:1

And when that work is done - Dan 12:1 says "Michael Stands up"

Dan 12:1
KJV: And at that time shall Michael stand up
NKJV:“At that time Michael shall stand up,
OJB: (Orthodox Jewish Bible): And at that time shall Micha’el stand
ASV: And at that time shall Michael stand up,

============ Christ in his ongoing role as our High Priest

So here we see Paul affirming Christ's ongoing daily work as our High Priest in

Heb 4:
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let’s hold firmly to our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let’s approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace for help at the time of our need.

Heb 4:
He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is also able to save forever those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.


Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, through His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let’s approach God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

The "veil" in Heb 10 - is stated as being "His flesh" - His sacrifice on the cross.

Individuals being cleansed and forgiven as they confess -- that's the daily service - for the sinner confessing sins and being forgiven.

1 John 1:2
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

===============================

Blood is sprinkled for a single individual in Lev 3:2,8,13
Blood is sprinkled for a single individual in Lev 4:6
Blood is sprinkled on behalf of a single individual in Lev 5:9
Blood is sprinkled on behalf of a single individual's guilt offering in Lev 7:2
Blood is sprinkled on behalf of a single individual's offering in Lev 17:6

 

[BobRyan]

here is the part of this I really like - I have all these answers I have compiled in my files at home - but few people are asking all the questions for which these are the answers. Here at least we can see the question raised and then the answer.

 

[Leaf473]

I don't recall that discussion ever melting down to "nobody knew what scripture was in the NT age" or "they thought they would need to wait 300 years to find out what NT scripture was" in those discussions about C.H. Spurgeon and the "Baptist Confession of Faith" or the discussions about "the Westminster Confession of Faith" all affirming that all TEN of the Ten commandment are included in what they all "the moral law of God". In fact that topic was about "the easy part of the discussion" where the Bible details were so glaringly obvious - that Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic - admitted to them.

Maybe you are confusing that topic with something else.

There is no indication from the NT text that people were rejecting the leadership of James or were rejecting his letter. In fact there is no dispute at all between any of the Christian denominations about what is in the NT text.



The "book of Wisdom" or the "books of Wisdom"???

As for which New Testament church wrote even one OT scripture - the answer is none. The Jews wrote the Old Testament text and the Jewish Historian - Josephus states in the first century that the OT Canon was formed and unchanged for over 300 years before Christ.

Not sure how this is helping your interest. Were you thinking of a different subject topic??

Sounds like your question is "how is it that all Christian denominations agree on what the NT is - even ones that accept sola-scriptura testing of doctrine"... -- might be its own subject/thread.

The issues I'm raising relate to the idea of "a lot of theologians affirm the 10" train of thought, and also how SDA's go about practicing Sola scriptura.

I'll try to rephrase it:

A) Did the early church have the authority to edit or interpret the scriptures so as to move the primary day of worship from the seventh day to the first day?
I assume your answer to this is No.

B) Did the early church have the authority to say what is scripture and what is not?
I think your answer to this will be something like: Nobody has to say what is scripture, everybody already knows and knew back then.

Am I understanding basically what you're saying?

 

[tall73]

nope. He shed all the blood on Calvary - but no case by case review was done there to see who would be availed of it -

You continue to change the type. Doesn't it bother you that Leviticus 16 doesn't show investigation of cases by the high priest, but rather entry with blood?

Doesn't it bother you that the sin offering is not said to transfer but to make atonement in the holy place and to forgive and atone?

If you build up a whole system not supported by the text, and call it the type, then you are looking for the wrong thing in the fulfillment.

And since using Jewish tradition is not convincing, now you just brush past the whole thing and go back to assuming what is not shown in the type.

and no indication that all saints in all of time interacted with Christ while on earth to get their specific sins forgiven

That is the point Bob. What the high priest did in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16 was to present blood, sufficient to atone for all the sins of the people in the whole camp. Hebrews is showing the action of the high priest, but then references interactions with believers on the basis of the completed blood ministration.

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

Hebrews also summarizes this work of the high priest, and it says nothing about investigating individual cases. Because that is not what the high priest did in the type. It says:

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

The type was "offering" blood. Note Bob that the blood was offered after having been taken into the sanctuary. It is not talking about burning the offering on the altar. It says he presented or offered blood in the sanctuary.

That is what Jesus did.He entered by means of His blood into God's presence. He presented Himself, the completed sacrifice.

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

Now you keep pointing to the word offer as though it is only used of the offering on the altar. But in verse 7 it is talking of the blood presented in the sanctuary. And here in verse 25 it is also speaking of blood being brought in and presented, and is compared to the entry of the high priest yearly. Jesus appeared in God's presence on our behalf, as the high priest did in the type.

It is only because you completely invent a different type, of investigation, that you cannot see that the author of Hebrews shows the type and fulfillment. And you try to distract from your complete lack of support in the type for your view by posting about burnt offerings. These offerings are in the context of entry, so they are not on the altar of burnt offering.

The word in 7 and 25 are the same, for presentation. and that is because Jesus doesn't take jars of blood, but presents Himself, the completed sacrifice, now living once more.

He entered once for all by means of His own blood, and appeared in God's presence for us

And it is there that He remains...

Yes, He remains in God's presence for us unlike the high priest who would leave immediately after on the Day of Atonement. But He already made His self pr

He offered His blood once for all - on the cross - where the sin offering is "offered up" by the High Priest every day - as Heb 7 points.

Heb 7:
He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is also able to save forever those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself


Exodus 29:18
You shall offer up in smoke the whole ram on the altar; it is a burnt offering to the Lord: it is a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord.

Exodus 30:20

when they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they will not die; or when they approach the altar to minister, by offering up in smoke a fire sacrifice to the Lord.

Quoting other texts does not answer the context of Hebrews 9:7 and 9:25 which speak of offering blood in the context of ENTRY and cannot be the speaking of the bronze altar Bob.

You can post as many texts from other contexts as you want. But it just shows you won't address the actual context of the verses referenced, just as you won't address how you get investigation by the high priest in the sanctuary out of Leviticus 16.

Now Bob, they did in fact interact on the Day of Atonement. They afflicted themselves in recognition of what the high priest was doing in the sanctuary--making atonement with blood.

Lev 16:29 “And it shall be a statute to you forever that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict yourselves and shall do no work, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you.
Lev 16:30 For on this day shall atonement be made for you to cleanse you. You shall be clean before the LORD from all your sins.

But in the fulfillment Jesus does all of the blood work at once, and then we accept it in real time. That is the only way that all Christians could look in faith to what He did, because He did it once for all. Once for all death AND once for all entry with blood presented in God's presence on our behalf.

 

[tall73]

here is the part of this I really like - I have all these answers I have compiled in my files at home - but few people are asking all the questions for which these are the answers. Here at least we can see the question raised and then the answer.

Yes, and we can see that you don't have a text showing transfer of sins by the sin offering, rather the sin offering makes atonement in the holy place, forgives, and atones, and that anything the sin offering touches becomes holy. In other words, you have it exactly backwards.

And we can see that you reinvent the type totally and that in Leviticus 16 the high priest does not investigate cases in the sanctuary but offers blood sufficient to atone for the sanctuary and all the sins of the people throughout the year.

And we see that Jesus did all of that in the fulfillment, making purification for the heavenly things and presenting the blood of the atonement in God's presence, in the form of Himself. Hence we see John saying already in his day

1Jn 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

He already died and entered by means of blood to present Himself before God, which is the type.

We can also see that you refuse to examine the context of 9:7 and 9:25 or address how they refer to "offer" in the context of entry, so it is not speaking of offering in smoke on the altar.

 

[tall73]

"Offered up" on the cross.

He offered His blood once for all - on the cross - where the sin offering is "offered up" by the High Priest every day - as Heb 7 points.

Hey Bob, the high priest offered blood on the Day of Atonement. This verse is not talking about on the altar, or the cross, because it is speaking of entry with blood which he offers.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

That is the type that you are ignoring. So you ignore the fulfillment as well.

Heb 7:
He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is also able to save forever those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Agreed, He is still a high priest, and still makes intercession. But He doesn't go die over and over, and He doesn't enter into God's presence by means of blood over and over. He did all that. But you reinvented the type.

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself

Exodus 29:18
You shall offer up in smoke the whole ram on the altar; it is a burnt offering to the Lord: it is a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord.

Exodus 30:20

when they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they will not die; or when they approach the altar to minister, by offering up in smoke a fire sacrifice to the Lord.


"Offer UP sacrifices" as we see the High Priest doing "daily" in Heb 7 above - as in "offer up in smoke" on the altar of burnt offering.

Notice that you avoid quoting the sin offering here. Because the person would kill the animal themselves, and the priest would minister the blood. Jesus did not just offer Himself up on the cross, but offered His blood as well. That was the role of the priest in the sin offering.

Christ sits as High Priest - on His throne - doing His work as High Priest.

Zech 6
12"Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD.

13"Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices."

Our High Priest is seated as High Priest - "at the right hand of the Father" Heb 8:1

And when that work is done - Dan 12:1 says "Michael Stands up"

Dan 12:1
KJV: And at that time shall Michael stand up
NKJV:“At that time Michael shall stand up,
OJB: (Orthodox Jewish Bible): And at that time shall Micha’el stand
ASV: And at that time shall Michael stand up,

============ Christ in his ongoing role as our High Priest

So here we see Paul affirming Christ's ongoing daily work as our High Priest in

Heb 4:
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let’s hold firmly to our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let’s approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace for help at the time of our need.

Heb 4:
He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is also able to save forever those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Yes, he has an ongoing work. And that work is seen in Hebrews 4. We come to Him to receive help and grace in time of need. But He doesn't die again or appear before God with blood again. That already happened. And His help is on the basis of that completed work.

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Of course it does. Your texts only underscore the point. Jesus is seen in verse 12 having already gone into God's presence with the blood and secured eternal redemption. It is on the basis of that blood already shed and presented that He cleanses.

Heb 10:
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, through His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let’s approach God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

The "veil" in Heb 10 - is stated as being "His flesh" - His sacrifice on the cross.

Individuals being cleansed and forgiven as they confess -- that's the daily service - for the sinner confessing sins and being forgiven.

1 John 1:2
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Bob, the sin offerings, the burnt offerings, the inauguration offerings, the ratification of the covenant offerings, the red heifer offerings, and all the other offerings, including the Day of Atonement offerings, were already completed, both in the death and the entry by means of blood.

They were once for all, death and entry were once for all. So trying to separate them is hopeless. You ignore the fulfillment, to try to read in the separate timing, but the death, and presentation of blood happened only once, in the first century, past tense to the writer of Hebrews.

 

[tall73]

Yes, that's what I thought you were saying.

Were there authoritative councils between Acts 15 and 1863, in the SDA view?

Seems like that is what he said to me as well, that Acts 15 was valid, the General Conference of the SDA is valid, and the rest of the councils just had some good ideas.

 

[BobRyan]

"Offered up" on the cross.
He offered His blood once for all - on the cross - where the sin offering is "offered up" by the High Priest every day - as Heb 7 points.

This verse is talking about offering "up" the sacrifice in the daily service on the altar - showing Christ's work as High Priest in the daily service.

"offer UP" as in "offer up in smoke" on the altar.

Heb 7:
He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is also able to save forever those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself


Exodus 29:18
You shall offer up in smoke the whole ram on the altar; it is a burnt offering to the Lord: it is a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord.

Exodus 30:20

when they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they will not die; or when they approach the altar to minister, by offering up in smoke a fire sacrifice to the Lord.


"Offer UP sacrifices" as we see the High Priest doing "daily" in Heb 7 above - as in "offer up in smoke" on the altar of burnt offering.

the general rule is stated in Ex 30: -- burnt offerings (fire sacrifice) is “offered up in smoke”

17 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 18 “You shall also make a basin of bronze, with its base of bronze, for washing; and you shall put it between the tent of meeting and the altar, and you shall put water in it. 19 Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet from it; 20 when they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they do not die; or when they approach the altar to minister, by offering up in smoke a fire sacrifice to the Lord. 21 So they shall wash their hands and their feet, so that they do not die; and it shall be a permanent statute for them, for Aaron and his descendants throughout their generations.”

Hey Bob, the high priest offered blood on the Day of Atonement.

True - there was a sin offering on the day of atonement - "offered up" in smoke.. a burnt offering.


that happened at the altar of sacrifice -- and is a type of the cross - since all sacrifices for all the services collapse into one offering up - and so then one entry into the sanctuary. But the two phases God specified do not collapse as we saw in the previous post.

 

[BobRyan]

Hey Bob, the high priest offered blood on the Day of Atonement. This verse is not talking about on the altar, or the cross, because it is speaking of entry with blood which he offers.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

"offers up in smoke" on the altar.

"offer UP" as in "offer up in smoke" on the altar.

Heb 7:
He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is also able to save forever those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself


Exodus 29:18
You shall offer up in smoke the whole ram on the altar; it is a burnt offering to the Lord: it is a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord.

Exodus 30:20

when they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they will not die; or when they approach the altar to minister, by offering up in smoke a fire sacrifice to the Lord.


"Offer UP sacrifices" as we see the High Priest doing "daily" in Heb 7 above - as in "offer up in smoke" on the altar of burnt offering.

Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" does not say he "offers blood up in smoke" or "offers up blood" in the sanctuary.

Lev 16:
11 “And Aaron shall bring the bull of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house, and shall kill the bull as the sin offering which is for himself. 12 Then he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from the altar before the Lord, with his hands full of sweet incense beaten fine, and bring it inside the veil. 13 And he shall put the incense on the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the Testimony, lest he die. 14 He shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the mercy seat on the east side; and before the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times.

15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat.

 

[BobRyan]

Agreed, He is still a high priest, and still makes intercession.

Which is the daily service ministry. This is irrefutable when one actually looks at the intercession/mediation done in the daily service as individual confess sins.

But He doesn't go die over and over since all sacrifices collapse down into the one sacrifice and all entry with blood coming from the sacrifice - collapse down into the one entry into the sanctuary... as noted here repeatedly.,

 

[BobRyan]

Because the person would kill the animal themselves, and the priest would minister the blood. Jesus did not just offer Himself up on the cross, but offered His blood as well.

Indeed - offered up in smoke - on the altar.

the general rule is stated in Ex 30: -- burnt offerings (fire sacrifice) is “offered up in smoke”

17 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 18 “You shall also make a basin of bronze, with its base of bronze, for washing; and you shall put it between the tent of meeting and the altar, and you shall put water in it. 19 Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet from it; 20 when they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they do not die; or when they approach the altar to minister, by offering up in smoke a fire sacrifice to the Lord. 21 So they shall wash their hands and their feet, so that they do not die; and it shall be a permanent statute for them, for Aaron and his descendants throughout their generations.”

Lev 4: The Daily service where individuals confess sins, and claim blood sacrifice atonement - and receive forgiveness -- all during the ceremonial year.

27 ‘Now if anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, and becomes guilty, 28 if his sin which he has committed is made known to him, then he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without defect, for his sin which he has committed. 29 He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay the sin offering at the place of the burnt offering. 30 The priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and all the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar. 31 Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat was removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall offer it up in smoke on the altar for a soothing aroma to the Lord. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

32 ‘But if he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring it, a female without defect. 33 He shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they slay the burnt offering. 34 The priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and all the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar. 35 Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offerings, and the priest shall offer them up in smoke on the altar, on the offerings by fire to the Lord. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin which he has committed, and he will be forgiven.

 

[BobRyan]

You continue to change the type. Doesn't it bother you that Leviticus 16 doesn't show investigation of cases

No more than I would be bothered by the fact that the sin offering representing God the Son - Jesus Christ the Messiah -- is in fact a goat and does not speak Hebrew and does not read or write. "Types" are funny that way.

Individual interaction is shown in the system of "types" - in the daily service.

 

[BobRyan]

If you build up a whole system not supported by the text, and call it the type, then you are looking for the wrong thing in the fulfillment.

You have already been shown that the pre-advent judgment out of books in Dan 7 is a judgment of case-by-case deeds as Rev 20 also reminds us when judgment in heaven is based out of what is recorded in books.

And you were shown that the cleansing of the sanctuary "solution" in Dan 8 is called the "judgment" in the Dan 7 parallel to it - as also even the Jews admit that the "Day of Atonement" is a day of judgment.

The fact that parables and types "Cannot be made to walk on all fours" is not exactly the surprise some may have at first supposed it to be.

===================

Having said that - we agree that everyone has free will and you can choose to accept or reject as you wish. But as a Seventh-day Adventist the texts referenced in those posts look pretty compelling. Anyone who wishes to differ may certainly do so.

 

[BobRyan]

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

The type was "offering" blood. Note Bob that the blood was offered after having been taken into the sanctuary.

I "note" - that no text says that "the blood was offered after having been taken into the sanctuary" for that statement we need to "quote you" and not scripture.

Which you are free to do - but I don't share that inclination.

It is not talking about burning the offering on the altar. It says he presented or offered blood in the sanctuary.

I get that you say "he presented or offered blood in the sanctuary" - but the text does not say that - and I am reluctant to quote "you" as if you are the Bible.

That is what Jesus did.He entered by means of His blood into God's presence. He presented Himself, the completed sacrifice.

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

Now you keep pointing to the word offer as though it is only used of the offering on the altar. But in verse 7 it is talking of the blood presented in the sanctuary. And here in verse 25 it is also speaking of blood being brought in and presented, and is compared to the entry of the high priest yearly.

Not actually true since you only get there when you "quote you" and then skip a few key details in the text.

Heb 9: 23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these things, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made by hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often"

The offering mentioned in Heb 9 is in relation to the cross - "Suffering on the cross" such that to "offer often" is to "suffer on the cross often".

You have inserted a "switch" so that "merely offering in the sanctuary" (like sprinkling blood) is not the act of crucifixion, not the sacrifice on the altar being offered up in smoke - as scripture says - but merely "sprinkling" and to sprinkle this or that and do it a few times does not mean being crucified "a few times". The entire argument of Heb 9 is blown up if using the "insert" you are attempting here.

Were we simply not supposed to notice that the part you snip out of your quote of Heb 9 is the part that reminds the reader that "offering" has to do with offering up in smoke of the altar of burnt offering (the cross) -- suffering on the cross.
===========================


Inside the OT Sanctuary -- The TYPE: is blood sprinkled

Inside the Heavenly Sanctuary – the antitype for “blood sprinkled” is Christ our High Priest claiming “my blood my blood” for specific sins, for forgiveness, our “advocate with the Father” –

1 John 1:9 -- 2John 2:1 “IF we confess our sins HE IS faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins and to CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness…if anyone sins we HAVE and Advocate with the Father” --- the daily service is personal and interactive for the one confessing sin.

 

[tall73]

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself

The priest did not kill the sacrifice in the sin offering, except for himself. He ministered the blood in the sin offering.

Exodus 29:18
You shall offer up in smoke the whole ram on the altar; it is a burnt offering to the Lord: it is a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord.

Notice this is a similar term but not the same as in Hebrews 9:7 and 9:25 in the LXX. The term here is ἀναφέρω

Exo 29:18 καὶ ἀνοίσεις ὅλον τὸν κριὸν ἐπὶ τὸ θυσιαστήριον ὁλοκαύτωμα κυρίῳ εἰς ὀσμὴν εὐωδίας· θυσίασμα κυρίῳ ἐστίν.

ἀναφέρω combines the same root but with a different preposition, which is why it is offer "up". Both can have elements of offering, presentation, etc. but this is not the same term.

And even the term you reference is not a technical term. It can refer to more than just the offering up of sacrifices:

Exo 18:19 Now obey my voice; I will give you advice, and God be with you! You shall represent the people before God and bring their cases to God,

Exo 18:19 νῦν οὖν ἄκουσόν μου, καὶ συμβουλεύσω σοι, καὶ ἔσται ὁ θεὸς μετὰ σοῦ. γίνου σὺ τῷ λαῷ τὰ πρὸς τὸν θεὸν καὶ ἀνοίσεις τοὺς λόγους αὐτῶν πρὸς τὸν θεὸν


However, προσφέρω. the same term used in Hebrews 9:7 and 25, is used in the LXX of Exodus 29:18, but not of the offering up in smoke.

Exo 29:2 and unleavened bread, unleavened cakes mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers smeared with oil. You shall make them of fine wheat flour.
Exo 29:3 You shall put them in one basket and bring them in the basket, and bring the bull and the two rams.

Exo 29:3 καὶ ἐπιθήσεις αὐτὰ ἐπὶ κανοῦν ἓν καὶ προσοίσεις αὐτὰ ἐπὶ τῷ κανῷ καὶ τὸ μοσχάριον καὶ τοὺς δύο κριούς.

The word προσφέρω, even in the context of offerings, etc. can represent bringing or presenting.

And we see it also used of blood:

Lev 1:5 Then he shall kill the bull before the LORD, and Aaron's sons the priests shall bring the blood and throw the blood against the sides of the altar that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting.

Lev 1:5 καὶ σφάξουσι τὸν μόσχον ἔναντι κυρίου, καὶ προσοίσουσιν οἱ υἱοὶ Ααρων οἱ ἱερεῖς τὸ αἷμα καὶ προσχεοῦσιν τὸ αἷμα ἐπὶ τὸ θυσιαστήριον κύκλῳ τὸ ἐπὶ τῶν θυρῶν τῆς σκηνῆς τοῦ μαρτυρίου.

Many other examples can be shown of the use of the word προσφέρω not related to any presentation of a burnt offering on the altar. It just meant bringing or presenting, etc.

An example also in Hebrews:

Heb 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered /brought/presented prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.

Heb 5:7 ὃς ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις τῆς σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ δεήσεις τε καὶ ἱκετηρίας πρὸς τὸν δυνάμενον σῴζειν αὐτὸν ἐκ θανάτου μετὰ κραυγῆς ἰσχυρᾶς καὶ δακρύων προσενέγκας, καὶ εἰσακουσθεὶς ἀπὸ τῆς εὐλαβείας,

Exodus 30:20

when they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they will not die; or when they approach the altar to minister, by offering up in smoke a fire sacrifice to the Lord.

"Offer UP sacrifices" as we see the High Priest doing "daily" in Heb 7 above - as in "offer up in smoke" on the altar of burnt offering.

Again, not the same term:

Exo 30:20 ὅταν εἰσπορεύωνται εἰς τὴν σκηνὴν τοῦ μαρτυρίου, νίψονται ὕδατι καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνωσιν· ἢ ὅταν προσπορεύωνται πρὸς τὸ θυσιαστήριον λειτουργεῖν καὶ ἀναφέρειν τὰ ὁλοκαυτώματα κυρίῳ,

You are confusing ἀναφέρω with προσφέρω.

If you want to look at usage, it should be the same word.

But the word actually used in Hebrews 9:7 and 9:25, προσφέρω, is used of bringing or presenting, as the texts posted demonstrate.

 

[tall73]

"offers up in smoke" on the altar.

No Bob, presented in the sanctuary.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

The context is:

-the high priest
-going into the second compartment
-once per year
-taking blood
-which he offers/brings/presents for the himself and the unintentional sins of the people.

The blood is taken and then presented. And this is the description of the earthly type given by the author in Hebrews.

Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" does not say he "offers blood up in smoke" or "offers up blood" in the sanctuary.

Lev 16:
11 “And Aaron shall bring the bull of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house, and shall kill the bull as the sin offering which is for himself. 12 Then he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from the altar before the Lord, with his hands full of sweet incense beaten fine, and bring it inside the veil. 13 And he shall put the incense on the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the Testimony, lest he die. 14 He shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the mercy seat on the east side; and before the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times.

15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat.

Yes, the blood is sprinkled on the mercy seat, in God's presence.

But the author of Hebrews spells out the OT type of the high priest entering into the second compartment, taking blood and then presenting it for himself and the people. You may not like the term the author uses, but it is still a term used even of blood in the LXX.

Unless you argue verse 7 is not referring to the earthly Day of Atonement type, which is spelled out, then you don't have an argument.

high priest
second compartment
once per year
taking blood
offers/presents the blood.

 

[tall73]

Tall73: Agreed, He is still a high priest, and still makes intercession.

Which is the daily service ministry. This is irrefutable when one actually looks at the intercession/mediation done in the daily service as individual confess sins.

But He doesn't go die over and over since all sacrifices collapse down into the one sacrifice and all entry with blood coming from the sacrifice - collapse down into the one entry into the sanctuary... as noted here repeatedly.,

Bob, the entry with blood was the fulfillment. Jesus presented Himself in God's presence for us. He doesn't keep trillions of containers of blood on hand for each confession. He presented His completed sacrifice right at the beginning.

All of the priestly activities then stem from that death and presentation.

What you are not wanting to look at is that the action of the high priest in the sanctuary in Leviticus 16 was not reviewing cases, but presenting blood, which was for all the sins of the people throughout the year.

Jesus did that. That part of the Day of Atonement is done, just as that part (death and blood ministration) of the sin offerings, etc. is done.

And it was done at a time where every Christian can come to him now to confess each sin. And it was also done such that all who have faith in Him benefit from His One blood ministration for all, shown in the Day of Atonement.

 

[BobRyan]

Heb 9: 23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these things, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made by hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often"

The offering mentioned in Heb 9 is in relation to the cross - "Suffering on the cross" such that to "offer often" is to "suffer on the cross often".

You have inserted a "switch" so that "merely offering in the sanctuary" (like sprinkling blood) is not the act of crucifixion, not the sacrifice on the altar being offered up in smoke - as scripture says - but merely "sprinkling" and to sprinkle this or that and do it a few times does not mean being crucified "a few times". The entire argument of Heb 9 is blown up if using the "insert" you are attempting here.

Were we simply not supposed to notice that the part you snip out of your quote of Heb 9 is the part that reminds the reader that "offering" has to do with offering up in smoke of the altar of burnt offering (the cross) -- suffering on the cross.
===========================


Inside the OT Sanctuary -- The TYPE: is blood sprinkled

Inside the Heavenly Sanctuary – the antitype for “blood sprinkled” is Christ our High Priest claiming “my blood my blood” for specific sins, for forgiveness, our “advocate with the Father” –

1 John 1:9 -- 2John 2:1 “IF we confess our sins HE IS faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins and to CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness…if anyone sins we HAVE and Advocate with the Father” --- the daily service is personal and interactive for the one confessing sin.

hmmm....

25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often"

The offering mentioned in Heb 9 is in relation to the cross - "Suffering on the cross" such that to "offer often" is to "suffer on the cross often".

 

[BobRyan]

No Bob, presented in the sanctuary.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

The context is:

-the high priest
-going into the second compartment
-once per year
-taking blood
-which he offers/brings/presents for the himself and the unintentional sins of the people.

That is a reference to "the type" -- in the type you have many sacrifices including one on the day of Atonement.

I think your mission was to show that in the antitype the blood is offered inside the sanctuary once for both the daily and he day of atonement deleting both phases at once.