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Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

tall73

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You view all these things as one continuous system. The sin comes in piecemeal throughout the year. Then it is taken out, then it is placed on the scapegoat.

What does atonement even mean to you?

Every instance where atonement is made by the blood it is not because of transfer to the sanctuary, or removal from the sanctuary. It is a picture of Jesus' death providing the atonement for all sin by paying the penalty.

In the sin offering during the year the blood application brought atonement.

In sin offerings such as for the high priest or the whole camp they are shown to bring atonement, and are specifically stated to make atonement in the holy place, the same phrase used in the yearly.

The blood cleanses. The blood atones. It does not just shuffle sin from place to place. It is not one continuous system. It is individual portraits of cleansing, each illustrating a different aspect of Jesus' death for us, and cleansing blood.

Note: It is "the Lords goat" that is the sin offering that is killed for the people (not the scapegoat Azazel) and it is "the Lords goat" whos blood is used for final sin atonement and the cleansing of the Sanctuary

Agreed, the Lord's goat shows the blood atonement and cleansing of sins of Jesus. By the way, this is what is shown in Hebrews as happening in the first century.

while "the scapegoat; Azazel" remains alive.

Not per Ellen White, who has him taking on the sins of God's people, and suffering for them, and being destroyed, suffering the penalty of the law for them.

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They “shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds.” The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch—Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. GC 673.1


But the scapegoat is another aspect of atonement made by Christ.

satan cannot be represented by a ceremonially clean animal, exactly like that used for blood atonement. satan is sinful, not clean. Nor have you explained how he can take on someone else's sins when he is unclean. The sins of God's people were of their own doing. Satan is guilty of his own sin, including temptation, but the sinner is still guilty for his own sin. The righteous were also guilty of their own sin, but Christ paid the price.

Two ceremonially clean animals can be used to show two aspects of the same atonement, both blood atonement by death, and total removal of sin from the camp while alive.

The statement by Ellen White that Satan suffers for our sins, has our sins placed on him, and meets the penalty of the law for our sins is totally wrong.

Jesus bore our sins, suffered for our sins, and satisfied the penalty of the law for us.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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@Leaf473

No, this is also a misrepresentation. What LGW really asserts is that according to the scriptures, "the scapegoat" is not used for atonement for sin in the same sense that atonement is made for the removal of the death penalty for sin and blood atonement that is needed to receive Gods' forgiveness. This is because "the scapegoat" is kept ALIVE and that it is "the Lords goat" that represents Jesus in blood atonement. The atonement used in context of "the scapegoat" is in returning all of the sins of Gods' people to the originator of all sin who will then in return receive the death penalty for these sins.

As posted earlier; a view that Jesus is "the scapegoat" in the anti-type under the new covenant is impossible. As posted earlier making Jesus "the scapegoat" in the new covenant runs into all kinds of problems.

How can Jesus being "the Lord's goat" that makes blood sacrifice for the sins of God's people also be "the scapegoat? That has all of the sins of God's people confessed on it by the great high Priest that also represents Jesus? In the anti-type you would have Jesus as our Great high Priest, who is also our sin offering for blood atonement (the Lords goat), laying His hands on himself, confessing all the sins of all God's people and re-transferring all the sins of God's people to himself (this was already done by the sinners in the daily) where he then is led out from the presence of God by a strong man to remove all sin from the presence of God? How is Jesus led by a strong man into the wilderness alive to remove the Sins of God's people from the presence of the Lord? There is no application for this in the bible.

By making Jesus the scapegoat your saying that blood atonement is inadequate for God's people to receive forgiveness of sins. The problem arises for your view here because by the time this final part of the Day of Atonement ritual had arrived, all blood sacrifices had been completed. The "Lord's goat" had been slain and its blood sprinkled before the mercy seat. This sacrifice atoned for all the sins of the people. This expiation in your view that Jesus is "the scapegoat" makes Christ's blood atonement inadequate, partial, incomplete, needing further remediation from the scapegoat. Christs sacrifice however and blood atonement however was complete, finished. No supplement, no other sacrifice, could be required. "When he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting and the altar, he shall bring the live goat" (Leviticus 16:20). Making Jesus "the scapegoat" you have the further problem of it thus appearing as though the Calvary sacrifice was deficient, that Christ did not there complete His work of expiation, or that some other figure was necessary to illustrate its sufficiency.

As posted earlier, in examining the transferal of sin to "the scapegoat" after all sin is atoneed by blood atonement already through "the Lords goat", it is significant to note that the goat was not treated in the same way as all other animal sacrifices were — slain as atonement for sin.

Only a sacrifice for sin was valid as an atonement for transgressions only as it died, as there was spilled blood (blood atonement for forgiveness). Thus, Jesus was "set forth to be a propitiation [for us] by his blood" (Romans 3:25). It is "through his blood" that we have redemption (Ephesians 1:7). Preserving the goat alive tells that Azazel had another purpose because shed blood was necessary for a sin offering, in what way could an animal kept alive be considered such an offering? In what respect would it represent Christ? - It cannot. To say that the scapegoat, which played a part only after the atonement was complete, represented Christ is to blur the atonement, to suggest it is not sufficient, that something else was needed to complete it and make it effective. Such an idea as having Jesus representing "the scapegoat" is simply not biblical.

If you think this through to new covenant application having Jesus as "the scapegoat just does not work. Scripture has been provided to support everything else in this post that I see no need to respond to because I believe it is your understanding of these scriptures that have already been addressed elsewhere in our discussion that are not supported in the scriptures your seeking to use here.

Take Care.
 
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tall73

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Incorrect. Each is a separate picture of aspects of Jesus' atoning.

The sin offering in the year shows cleansing for one sin of the person, showing the price of sin, that the sacrifice must die for the sin of the person.

The cleansing at the end of the year shows cleansing blood for removal of all sins of the camp--the same thing we see in the fulfillment when Jesus by His one sacrifice for all time, and entry by means of His own blood secured eternal redemption through one blood ministration.

In both cases they are pictures of cleansing, lessons for the people.

The atoning blood happened when the high priest went into the sanctuary, just as it happened when Jesus went into the true sanctuary, heaven itself.

The scapegoat also was a clean goat, the same as the one that provided blood, clean, without blemish. It showed the total removal of sin from the camp.

Jesus when He comes from the sanctuary will entirely remove everything associated with sin from His kingdom. Even the old earth and heavens will be destroyed, and new ones in their place. He does this, not satan.

They are all showing different aspects of what Jesus does.
 
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tall73

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tall73 said:
LGW asserts that the scapegoat is not used for atonement.

However, the text says:

Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.




The text says that that scapegoat was used to make atonement.

Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

satan can never make ANY kind of atonement for the sins of God's people. Only Jesus does that. It doesn't matter what form you see satan making atonement for our sins, it is impossible.

The atonement used in context of "the scapegoat" is in returning all of the sins of Gods' people to the originator of all sin who will then in return receive the death penalty for these sins.

satan instigated sin. satan tempts people to sin.

But your sin is still your sin. satan did not force you to sin. You chose it. satan did not force me to sin. I chose it.

satan cannot in any way make atonement for sins of God's people. And satan cannot take on your sins. He cannot be represented by a clean unblemished animal, the same as Christ. Both of the goats were brought for a sin offering:

Lev 16:5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.


Both goats had to be suitable for a sin offering, unblemished, clean, and that cannot picture satan.

He has no part in atonement for the sins of the God's people.


You just acknowledged Jesus is both Sacrifice and High Priest. It sounds like He can represent different things in the sanctuary service, which we both agree with.

Now how can satan be represented by a ceremonially clean sacrificial animal just like the one used for blood sacrifice? He cannot.


Because you are interpreting the shadow instead of the reality. Jesus removed sin from the camp. But in the shadow the goat didn't just go out of the camp.


Quite the opposite! In my view all of these are pictures of what Jesus does. He does it all. In your view you have the final blood atonement being made, but then satan has the sins of the people of God placed on him, suffers for them and satisfies the penalty of the law? The law was already satisfied!

To you atonement means shuffling sins around. No, Jesus dies for the sins. And He also removes all sin from the dwelling place of God.

Satan cannot take the sins of others on himself.

The "Lord's goat" had been slain and its blood sprinkled before the mercy seat. This sacrifice atoned for all the sins of the people.

By the way, in your haste to try to say that satan doesn't bear your sin, even though Ellen White says he does, you actually got this part of the service right.

Jesus took cleansing blood and sprinkled it before the mercy seat. His sacrifice atoned for all the sins of the people! Amen! Jesus did that in the first century. He made purification for sins. He entered by means of His own blood, securing eternal redemption.

Now stop trying to turn that into your strange IJ to justify why it took so long after Adventists got everything wrong before and after 1844.

And stop claiming that after atoning for all sins Jesus takes them out as though they were not atoned for and sticks them on satan to suffer for them. That is sick!

All of the rites point to Jesus. And all of them show aspects of His work. He paid the price for sin in His death. He presented that completed sacrifice, making purification, in the sanctuary.

Then when He leaves the sanctuary He will remove every trace of sin from the dwelling of His people.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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@Leaf473
Your response here...
You view all these things as one continuous system. The sin comes in piecemeal throughout the year. Then it is taken out, then it is placed on the scapegoat.
No. That is what scripture says in regards to the two ministrations of the Priesthood in the work of the Sanctuary in daily atonement for the individual sins of the people of God through blood atonement in Leviticus 4:22-35 and the yearly collective final atonement for all the sins of Gods' people brought into the Sanctuary throughout the year, and the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the removal of all sin from the presence of God to the scapegoat in Leviticus 16.
What does atonement even mean to you?
A question already addressed to you many times now as shown through scripture in the ministration of the daily and yearly ministration of the Priesthood in blood atonement for sin and the removal of sin from the presence of God as outlined in the Sanctuary system that was only a copy of the work and ministration of Jesus as Gods' true sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all who as God' High priest ever lives to make intercession for us as shown in Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22. Gods plan of salvation is revealed in both the earthly and heavenly Sanctuary in the ministrations of Jesus in the daily atonement for the individual sins of the sinner and Gods' final atonement for all sin and the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the final atonement and removal of all sin from the presence of God that is finally fulfilled at the second coming of Jesus.
Every instance where atonement is made by the blood it is not because of transfer to the sanctuary, or removal from the sanctuary. It is a picture of Jesus' death providing the atonement for all sin by paying the penalty.
No, as shown through the scriptures many times now all sin must be brought into the Sanctuary through a sin offering and blood atonement in the presence of a Priest and the Lord in order to pay the penalty for sin in the death of the sin offering and for the sinner to receive Gods' forgiveness through blood atonement that can only be made by the Priest in the presence of God in the Sanctuary. This is the daily ministration of the Priesthood (Leviticus 4:22-35). The final cleansing of the Sanctuary from all the sins of the daily ministration of the Priesthood takes place in the yearly ministration on the great day of atonement where all the sins of the Sanctuary are cleansed from the presence of God and final collective atonement is made for God's people and all the sins of Gods' people are removed from the presence of God. If your view was true there would be no yearly ministration of the Priesthood as there would be no sin in the Sanctuary that needs to be cleansed and removed from the presence of God. Therefore the yearly atonement or the great day of atonement and yearly ministration of the Priesthood proves your teachings are not biblical.
Already addressed in some detail already. Please see post # 459 linked and post # 462 linked. The application of atonement between "the Lords goat" and "the scapegoat" is not the same. Only "the Lords goat" makes blood sacrifice for sin to pay the penalty of sin (death) and receive God's forgiveness of sins. The transfer of all the sins of the people of God as shown in Leviticus 16 is the returning of all sin to the originator of sin who then is responsible for his own sins at the second coming. Please read the linked posts above.

Take Care.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I would respectfully disagree because that is not what the scriptures teach. According to the Sanctuary system there is two ministrations of the Priesthood in the daily ministration of of the Priesthood for sin atonement through blood sacrifice for the individual sins of the people of God and the yearly ministration of the Priesthood which is the final collective atonement for the sins of Gods people brought into the Sanctuary throughout the year and the cleansing of the Sanctuary for all the sins of the people of God and the removal of all sin from the presence of God as shown in Leviticus 4:22-35 for the daily forgiveness of specific individual sins and the cleansing and removal of all sin from the presence of God in Leviticus 16. It is the yearly ministration of the Sanctuary system the show that your application of the scriptures is not biblical.

Take Care.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Already addressed in detail this is simply repetition. Please see post # 459 linked and post # 462 linked. The application of atonement between "the Lords goat" and "the scapegoat" is not the same. Only "the Lords goat" makes blood sacrifice for sin to pay the penalty of sin (death) and receive God's forgiveness of sins. The transfer of all the sins of the people of God as shown in Leviticus 16 is the returning of all sin to the originator of sin who then is responsible for his own sins at the second coming. Please read the linked posts above.

Take Care.
 
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tall73

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Already addressed in some detail already. Please see post # 459 linked and post # 462 linked. The application of atonement between "the Lords goat" and "the scapegoat" is not the same.

There is no atonement for the sins of God's people of any sort provided by satan, and never can be.

The transfer of all the sins of the people of God as shown in Leviticus 16 is the returning of all sin to the originator of sin who then is responsible for his own sins at the second coming. Please read the linked posts above.

Take Care.

I note you did a little edit there of what Ellen White said. You say he is responsible for his own sin. But Ellen White says he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he caused God's people to commit.

The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. Great Controversey
 
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LoveGodsWord

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There is no atonement for the sins of God's people of any sort provided by satan, and never can be.
I believe it is your understanding of the meaning and application of atonement between the Lord's goat and the scapegoat that is in error here. This has already been addressed in detail. Please see post # 459 linked and post # 462 linked. The application of atonement between "the Lords goat" and "the scapegoat" is not the same. Only "the Lords goat" makes blood sacrifice for sin to pay the penalty of sin (death) to receive God's forgiveness of sins. The transfer of all the sins of the people of God as shown in Leviticus 16 to the scapegoat is the returning of all sin to the originator of sin who then is responsible for all sins at the second coming. Please read the linked posts above.

No not at all, I agree with the statement and have shown why I believe it is true from the scriptures from the very beginning of our discussion. Perhaps you have a misunderstanding? That is why all sin is transferred to "the scapegoat" and removed from the presence of God into the wilderness as reflected at the second coming in Revelation 20:1-3 and when the devil and his angels are finally cast into the lake of fire. If your view was correct this could not happen and the yearly ministration of the Priesthood would cease to exist. Fact is though it exists as shown in the yearly ministration of the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the final atonement of Gods people and the removal of all sin from the presence of God as shown in Leviticus 16 and Leviticus 23:23-32.

Take Care.
 
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tall73

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No not at all I agree with the statement and have shown it from the scriptures from the very beginning of our discussion perhaps you have a misunderstanding.

You and Ellen White who see satan as taking on your sins and suffering for them is the misunderstanding.

And it is a terrible one.
 
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tall73

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The irony is that they found one manuscript of Ellen White's that has a totally different view. But it was never published.

Ms 112, 1897

Some apply the solemn type, the scapegoat, to Satan. This is not correct. He cannot bear his own sins. At the choosing of Barabbas, Pilate washed his hands. He cannot be represented as the scapegoat. The awful cry, uttered with a hasty, awful recklessness, by the Satan-inspired multitude, swelling louder and louder, reaches up to the throne of God, “His blood be upon us and upon our children.” [Matthew 27:25.] Christ was the Scapegoat, which the type represents. He alone can be represented by the goat borne into wilderness. He alone, over whom death had not power, was able to bear our sins.


This article by the White Estate then explains this comment away:

Ellen G. White® Estate: The Scapegoat in the Writings of Ellen G. White
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You and Ellen White who see satan as taking on your sins and suffering for them is the misunderstanding. And it is a terrible one.

No not at all. I believe it is the other way around as already proven through the scriptures in the daily and the yearly ministrations of the Priesthood as shown in Leviticus 4:22-35 and Leviticus 16 which are the two ministrations of the Sanctuary system further revealed in Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22; Revelation 20:1-3 and Revelation 22:11-15. The daily and yearly ministrations of the Priesthood outline the work of Jesus as our true sacrifice for sin and as our great high Priest that ever lives to make intercession for us under the new covenant. It is the yearly ministration of the final atonement of the sins of God's people the prove your claims and teachings are not supported by the scriptures here and you making Jesus as "the scapegoat" makes the sacrifice of Jesus and blood atonement insufficient as demonstrated already in post # 459 linked and post # 462 linked. The application of atonement between "the Lords goat" and "the scapegoat" is not the same. Only "the Lords goat" makes blood sacrifice for sin to pay the penalty of sin (death) and receive God's forgiveness of sins. The transfer of all the sins of the people of God as shown in Leviticus 16 to "the scapegoat" Azazel is the returning of all sin to the originator of sin who then is responsible for his own sins when judgement is given at the second coming.

Take Care.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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It does not explain the article away it adds the context that this was the view of those in the late 1840's and 1850's which was not made clear until the 1880's until God showed differently. Context always matters here. Context provided here linked.

Happy Sabbath!
 
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tall73

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I recommend people read the article. And they will indeed see they try to explain this statement away.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I recommend people read the article. And they will indeed see they try to explain this statement away.
For me I recommend that context should always be considered as to when and why things are said at various times in history. That said Tall I have enjoyed my discussion with you as always as I love sharing Gods Word and I pray you may consider our discussion in a friendly Christian manner in love as we love God and prayerfully seek to know him through His Word. I am only sharing with you what I believe from the scriptures. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. That is never in question and of course what we believe is between us all and God as everyone only answers to God come judgement day for the Words of God we accept or reject and of course we can always agree to disagree and remain friends.

Take Care.
 
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tall73

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Thank you for taking time to discuss. God bless
 
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Leaf473

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Is it fair to say that you were taking this position?

The building neutralizes or absorbs the sin in the offering.

And then at a later point the sin is sucked back out of the building and placed on the scapegoat?
 
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Leaf473

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Saying that Satan
...in turn bears the ultimate responsibility and final punishment from God for all the sins atoned for Gods' people by Jesus as well as all the sins of the world.
is what I meant by Satan bearing the sins of the whole world.

...places his hands on the scapegoat transferring all the sins to the scapegoat and removing it from God's presence into the wilderness...

This is fulfilled as the last act and final removal of all sin from the presence of God at the second coming...

This idea of all sin being removed from God's presence and placed on Satan is what I was talking about here
...the idea of sin in the end being all borne by Satan. If I were Satan, that's just the kind of thing I'd like to have said about me. It makes it sound like I have these really broad shoulders, capable of bearing the sin of the whole world.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Is it fair to say that you were taking this position?
And then at a later point the sin is sucked back out of the building and placed on the scapegoat?
No not exactly. Leviticus 16 is only about the final yearly atonement and ministration of the Priesthood that included both the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the removal of sin from the presence of God to the scapegoat in the Sanctuary system. The ministration of the Priesthood under the Sanctuary system included both the daily (Leviticus 4:22-35) and the yearly ministration of the Priesthood (Leviticus 16). Under the old covenant the daily ministration of the Priesthood was for the forgiveness of individual specific sins of the sinner as sin was brought into the Sanctuary and then transferred to the sin offering and blood atonement was made at the alter of burnt offerings in the presence of the Priest and the Lord. It was both Priestly ministrations (daily and the yearly) that outlines God's plan of salvation for all mankind under the new covenant with Jesus as Gods' true sin offering for the sins of the world and Jesus as our true great High Priest who now ministers on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands as shown in Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22.

Take Care
 
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Leaf473

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Thank you for the post.

Who is the "you" that you refer to here:
I think what your not considering here...

Are you talking to me or @tall73 ?
 
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