Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

[LoveGodsWord]

Saying that Satan is what I meant by Satan bearing the sins of the whole world. This idea of all sin being removed from God's presence and placed on Satan is what I was talking about here

Not sure if I understand exactly what you mean here. The daily and yearly ministrations of the Priesthood outline the work of Jesus as our true sacrifice for sin and as our great high Priest that ever lives to make intercession for us under the new covenant. According to the scriptures, the yearly ministration represents the final atonement of the sins of God's people. According to Leviticus 16 it shows that there are two goats, and after casting lots, one was "the Lords goat" for the final collective sin atonement for Gods' people representing Jesus (atonement here was not for individual specific sins, these were brought into the Sanctuary in the daily ministration of the Priesthood) and the cleansing of the sanctuary from all the sins brought into it from the daily ministration of the Priesthood from individual sin offerings and blood atonement.

The "Lord's goat" represented Jesus as it was the only goat that was used as a sin offering and blood atonement. The other goat called "the scapegoat" was kept alive and all the sins of Gods' people that were atoned through blood sacrifice from "the Lords goat" and the daily ministration of individual sin was transferred to "the scapegoat" by the great High Priest (also representing Jesus; see Hebrews 7:1-25) and the scapegoat was then led out of the Sanctuary removing all sin from the presence of God into the wilderness (see Leviticus 16). This will have it's final fulfillment at the 2nd coming of Jesus (see Revelation 20:1-3; Revelation 22:11-15).

Making Jesus as "the scapegoat" makes the sacrifice of Jesus and blood atonement insufficient as demonstrated already in post # 459 linked and post # 462 linked. The application of atonement between "the Lords goat" and "the scapegoat" is not the same. Only "the Lords goat" makes blood sacrifice for sin to pay the penalty of sin (death) and receive God's forgiveness of sins. The transfer of all the sins of the people of God as shown in Leviticus 16 to "the scapegoat" Azazel is the returning of all sin to the originator of sin who then is responsible for all the sins of Gods' people all through time when judgement is given at the second coming.

Take Care.

 

[Leaf473]

I agree, this is a huge issue.

LGW asserts that the scapegoat is not used for atonement.



However, the text says:

Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Nor has LGW described how Satan can bear anyone else's sins, since he bears his own.

And he claims I am misrepresenting his view. But Ellen White is considered inspired by the Adventist church, and she says the following in the Great Controversy:

It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty.

This quote makes it plain that Ellen White sees the sins placed on Satan, who must "bear the final penalty".

Satan cannot bear the sins of God's people. He bears his own sins.

LGW claims I am misrepresenting his view. But we will see what Ellen White says again, since the SDA consider her inspired.

LGW says:



But Ellen White says:

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They “shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds.” The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch—Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. GC 673.1

She states clearly that all the sins of the righteous are transferred to satan, which he suffers for, until he is destroyed, and that this is the satisfying of the law.

But it is Jesus who satisfied the law for us. satan never did.

Now if Ellen White does not represent LGW's view, then I would be happy to say that his view is not the same as hers. But her view does make satan bear the sins of the people of God. And that is completely wrong. Satan bears his own sin. The wicked bear their own sin.

And Jesus bore our sins, died for them, atoned for the sins, and totally removed every element of sin from the dwelling of His people. He is the one who makes atonement, and certainly not satan.

Thank you for the quotes. Since this thread is about SDA theology specifically, it's helpful to know what White actually said.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Thank you for the quotes. Since this thread is about SDA theology specifically, it's helpful to know what White actually said.

Well to be honest mainly scripture have been provided that support those quotes. I think looking at the OP I am not sure if we may have gone a little off topic to what @BobRyan intended which may be the reason he has not come back, although I am not sure about this because I have not spoken to him. I just popped into the discussion because I had an interest in discussing the Sanctuary system and the two ministrations of the Priesthood that outline Gods' plan of salvation in the new covenant for all mankind which I noticed was being discussed at the time. For me it is a really interesting topic as it outlines God's plan of salvation under the new covenant. Anyhow take care, taking the family out now.

Happy Sabbath

 

[Leaf473]

@Leaf473


No, this is also a misrepresentation. What LGW really asserts is that according to the scriptures, "the scapegoat" is not used for atonement for sin in the same sense that atonement is made for the removal of the death penalty for sin and blood atonement that is needed to receive Gods' forgiveness. This is because "the scapegoat" is kept ALIVE and that it is "the Lords goat" that represents Jesus in blood atonement. The atonement used in context of "the scapegoat" is in returning all of the sins of Gods' people to the originator of all sin who will then in return receive the death penalty for these sins.

As posted earlier; a view that Jesus is "the scapegoat" in the anti-type under the new covenant is impossible. As posted earlier making Jesus "the scapegoat" in the new covenant runs into all kinds of problems.

How can Jesus being "the Lord's goat" that makes blood sacrifice for the sins of God's people also be "the scapegoat? That has all of the sins of God's people confessed on it by the great high Priest that also represents Jesus? In the anti-type you would have Jesus as our Great high Priest, who is also our sin offering for blood atonement (the Lords goat), laying His hands on himself, confessing all the sins of all God's people and re-transferring all the sins of God's people to himself (this was already done by the sinners in the daily) where he then is led out from the presence of God by a strong man to remove all sin from the presence of God? How is Jesus led by a strong man into the wilderness alive to remove the Sins of God's people from the presence of the Lord? There is no application for this in the bible.

By making Jesus the scapegoat your saying that blood atonement is inadequate for God's people to receive forgiveness of sins. The problem arises for your view here because by the time this final part of the Day of Atonement ritual had arrived, all blood sacrifices had been completed. The "Lord's goat" had been slain and its blood sprinkled before the mercy seat. This sacrifice atoned for all the sins of the people. This expiation in your view that Jesus is "the scapegoat" makes Christ's blood atonement inadequate, partial, incomplete, needing further remediation from the scapegoat. Christs sacrifice however and blood atonement however was complete, finished. No supplement, no other sacrifice, could be required. "When he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting and the altar, he shall bring the live goat" (Leviticus 16:20). Making Jesus "the scapegoat" you have the further problem of it thus appearing as though the Calvary sacrifice was deficient, that Christ did not there complete His work of expiation, or that some other figure was necessary to illustrate its sufficiency.

As posted earlier, in examining the transferal of sin to "the scapegoat" after all sin is atoneed by blood atonement already through "the Lords goat", it is significant to note that the goat was not treated in the same way as all other animal sacrifices were — slain as atonement for sin.

Only a sacrifice for sin was valid as an atonement for transgressions only as it died, as there was spilled blood (blood atonement for forgiveness). Thus, Jesus was "set forth to be a propitiation [for us] by his blood" (Romans 3:25). It is "through his blood" that we have redemption (Ephesians 1:7). Preserving the goat alive tells that Azazel had another purpose because shed blood was necessary for a sin offering, in what way could an animal kept alive be considered such an offering? In what respect would it represent Christ? - It cannot. To say that the scapegoat, which played a part only after the atonement was complete, represented Christ is to blur the atonement, to suggest it is not sufficient, that something else was needed to complete it and make it effective. Such an idea as having Jesus representing "the scapegoat" is simply not biblical.

If you think this through to new covenant application having Jesus as "the scapegoat just does not work. Scripture has been provided to support everything else in this post that I see no need to respond to because I believe it is your understanding of these scriptures that have already been addressed elsewhere in our discussion that are not supported in the scriptures your seeking to use here.

Take Care.

What LGW really asserts is that according to the scriptures, "the scapegoat" is not used for atonement for sin in the same sense that atonement is made for the removal of the death penalty for sin and blood atonement that is needed to receive Gods' forgiveness. This is because "the scapegoat" is kept ALIVE and that it is "the Lords goat" that represents Jesus in blood atonement. The atonement used in context of "the scapegoat" is in returning all of the sins of Gods' people to the originator of all sin who will then in return receive the death penalty for these sins.

Are you saying there is more than one kind of atonement?

May you take care as well, my friend!

 

[Leaf473]

The irony is that they found one manuscript of Ellen White's that has a totally different view. But it was never published.

Ms 112, 1897

Some apply the solemn type, the scapegoat, to Satan. This is not correct. He cannot bear his own sins. At the choosing of Barabbas, Pilate washed his hands. He cannot be represented as the scapegoat. The awful cry, uttered with a hasty, awful recklessness, by the Satan-inspired multitude, swelling louder and louder, reaches up to the throne of God, “His blood be upon us and upon our children.” [Matthew 27:25.] Christ was the Scapegoat, which the type represents. He alone can be represented by the goat borne into wilderness. He alone, over whom death had not power, was able to bear our sins.


This article by the White Estate then explains this comment away:

Ellen G. White® Estate: The Scapegoat in the Writings of Ellen G. White

Fascinating!

 

[Leaf473]

No not exactly. Leviticus 16 is only about the final yearly atonement and ministration of the Priesthood that included both the cleansing of the Sanctuary and the removal of sin from the presence of God to the scapegoat in the Sanctuary system. The ministration of the Priesthood under the Sanctuary system included both the daily (Leviticus 4:22-35) and the yearly ministration of the Priesthood (Leviticus 16). Under the old covenant the daily ministration of the Priesthood was for the forgiveness of individual specific sins of the sinner as sin was brought into the Sanctuary and then transferred to the sin offering and blood atonement was made at the alter of burnt offerings in the presence of the Priest and the Lord. It was both Priestly ministrations (daily and the yearly) that outlines God's plan of salvation for all mankind under the new covenant with Jesus as Gods' true sin offering for the sins of the world and Jesus as our true great High Priest who now ministers on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands as shown in Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22.

Take Care

Are you saying the sin remains in the building and is not sucked back out at some later time?

 

[Leaf473]

Not sure if I understand exactly what you mean here. The daily and yearly ministrations of the Priesthood outline the work of Jesus as our true sacrifice for sin and as our great high Priest that ever lives to make intercession for us under the new covenant. According to the scriptures, the yearly ministration represents the final atonement of the sins of God's people. According to Leviticus 16 it shows that there are two goats, and after casting lots, one was "the Lords goat" for the final collective sin atonement for Gods' people representing Jesus (atonement here was not for individual specific sins, these were brought into the Sanctuary in the daily ministration of the Priesthood) and the cleansing of the sanctuary from all the sins brought into it from the daily ministration of the Priesthood from individual sin offerings and blood atonement.

The "Lord's goat" represented Jesus as it was the only goat that was used as a sin offering and blood atonement. The other goat called "the scapegoat" was kept alive and all the sins of Gods' people that were atoned through blood sacrifice from "the Lords goat" and the daily ministration of individual sin was transferred to "the scapegoat" by the great High Priest (also representing Jesus; see Hebrews 7:1-25) and the scapegoat was then led out of the Sanctuary removing all sin from the presence of God into the wilderness (see Leviticus 16). This will have it's final fulfillment at the 2nd coming of Jesus (see Revelation 20:1-3; Revelation 22:11-15).

Making Jesus as "the scapegoat" makes the sacrifice of Jesus and blood atonement insufficient as demonstrated already in post # 459 linked and post # 462 linked. The application of atonement between "the Lords goat" and "the scapegoat" is not the same. Only "the Lords goat" makes blood sacrifice for sin to pay the penalty of sin (death) and receive God's forgiveness of sins. The transfer of all the sins of the people of God as shown in Leviticus 16 to "the scapegoat" Azazel is the returning of all sin to the originator of sin who then is responsible for all the sins of Gods' people all through time when judgement is given at the second coming.

Take Care.

This will have it's final fulfillment at the 2nd coming of Jesus...

At which time all the sins of the world are placed on Satan?

 

[Leaf473]

Well to be honest mainly scripture have been provided that support those quotes. I think looking at the OP I am not sure if we may have gone a little off topic to what @BobRyan intended which may be the reason he has not come back, although I am not sure about this because I have not spoken to him. I just popped into the discussion because I had an interest in discussing the Sanctuary system and the two ministrations of the Priesthood that outline Gods' plan of salvation in the new covenant for all mankind which I noticed was being discussed at the time. For me it is a really interesting topic as it outlines God's plan of salvation under the new covenant. Anyhow take care, taking the family out now.

Happy Sabbath

I agree that the subject may be off topic for the thread, though probably not for the general forum area.

If you go back to around post 200 or so, I think you will find our brother @BobRyan was discussing this same or similar subject at length as well. At least that's how I read it.

I agree that a lot of scriptures have been presented, but I don't see any strong connection to Satan bearing the sins of the whole world.

I see this as an opportunity, then, to tie this subject in with the thread topic. For me, it makes White's role as God's messenger questionable.

Thank you for the Sabbath blessing. May you have a blessed Sabbath as well. And may you have a blessed day every day!

 

[tall73]

If you go back to around post 200 or so, I think you will find our brother BobRyanwas discussing this same or similar subject at length as well. At least that's how I read it.

He did seem to be.

I see this as an opportunity, then, to tie this subject in with the thread topic.

Yes, scripture testing!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Are you saying the sin remains in the building and is not sucked back out at some later time?

No. According to the scriptures, sin is brought into the Sanctuary through sin being transferred to the sin offerings and blood atonement in the daily ministration of the Priesthood for the individual specific sins of God's people as shown in the scriptures in Leviticus 4:22-35. The yearly ministration of the Priesthood called the great day of atonement, cleanses the sanctuary from all the sins of Gods' people brought into it throughout the year and removes all the sin of God's people from the presence of God by transferring it to "the scapegoat" which is then led by a strong man into the wilderness according to Leviticus 16 and Leviticus 23:23-32.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Not sure if I understand exactly what you mean here. The daily and yearly ministrations of the Priesthood outline the work of Jesus as our true sacrifice for sin and as our great high Priest that ever lives to make intercession for us under the new covenant. According to the scriptures, the yearly ministration represents the final atonement of the sins of God's people. According to Leviticus 16 it shows that there are two goats, and after casting lots, one was "the Lords goat" for the final collective sin atonement for Gods' people representing Jesus (atonement here was not for individual specific sins, these were brought into the Sanctuary in the daily ministration of the Priesthood) and the cleansing of the sanctuary from all the sins brought into it from the daily ministration of the Priesthood from individual sin offerings and blood atonement.

The "Lord's goat" represented Jesus as it was the only goat that was used as a sin offering and blood atonement. The other goat called "the scapegoat" was kept alive and all the sins of Gods' people that were atoned through blood sacrifice from "the Lords goat" and the daily ministration of individual sin was transferred to "the scapegoat" by the great High Priest (also representing Jesus; see Hebrews 7:1-25) and the scapegoat was then led out of the Sanctuary removing all sin from the presence of God into the wilderness (see Leviticus 16). This will have it's final fulfillment at the 2nd coming of Jesus (see Revelation 20:1-3; Revelation 22:11-15).

Making Jesus as "the scapegoat" makes the sacrifice of Jesus and blood atonement insufficient as demonstrated already in post # 459 linked and post # 462 linked. The application of atonement between "the Lords goat" and "the scapegoat" is not the same. Only "the Lords goat" makes blood sacrifice for sin to pay the penalty of sin (death) and receive God's forgiveness of sins. The transfer of all the sins of the people of God as shown in Leviticus 16 to "the scapegoat" Azazel is the returning of all sin to the originator of sin who then is responsible for all the sins of Gods' people all through time when judgement is given at the second coming.

Your response here...

At which time all the sins of the world are placed on Satan?

Already addressed and answered through the scriptures in the post you are quoting from

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Are you saying there is more than one kind of atonement? May you take care as well, my friend!

Not exactly. The post you are part quoting from in post # 459 linked is showing the difference in the application of atonement between "the Lords goat" and "the scapegoat" and how "the scapegoat cannot represent Jesus (you may want to read also post # 462 linked) as true atonement for sin can only be made in the death of the sin offering and blood atonement for sin for Gods' forgiveness of sins. Only the death of the sin offering from "the Lords goat" pays the penalty for sin (death) and blood atonement by the Priest receives Gods forgiveness and cleansing of sin. In the yearly the transference of all the sins of Gods' people to "the scapegoat" that is kept alive only represents all the sins of Gods' people being returned to the originator of sin who pays the final penalty of all the sins of Gods people (death). Atonement in this sense is simply returning all sin to the originator of sin that "the Lords goat" Jesus purchased through blood atonement and Jesus as both our true sin sacrifice through blood atonement and our great high priest removing all sin from Gods people and the presence of God to the originator of all sin that is led away awaiting Gods' final punishment for all sin

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I agree that the subject may be off topic for the thread, though probably not for the general forum area.

If you go back to around post 200 or so, I think you will find our brother @BobRyan was discussing this same or similar subject at length as well. At least that's how I read it.

I agree that a lot of scriptures have been presented, but I don't see any strong connection to Satan bearing the sins of the whole world.

I see this as an opportunity, then, to tie this subject in with the thread topic. For me, it makes White's role as God's messenger questionable.

Thank you for the Sabbath blessing. May you have a blessed Sabbath as well. And may you have a blessed day every day!

Thanks Leaf, yes I do not mind talking about these things. The only reason I joined in was because I was interested in the topic of the Sanctuary and have enjoyed our discussion here. As shown why through the scriptures already I believe the strongest scripture support shows Satan represents "the scapegoat". There is no fitting Jesus into the scapegoat view because it makes of none effect sin sacrifice and blood atonement of Jesus as the all sufficient sacrifice of sin. Then we have Jesus as our Great high Priest placing all the sins of Gods' people as our true sin offering (Lord's goat) and blood atonement who then after the Sanctuary is cleansed and God's people sins atoned confessing all the sins of Gods' people upon himself again as the "supposed scapregoat" then as the scapegoat to be led out from the presence of God by a strong man into the wilderness to remove all the sins of God's people from the presence of God into the wilderness. This simply makes no sense and is not biblical or supported in old or new covenant scripture in my view.

Anyhow Take care.

 

[Leaf473]

No. According to the scriptures, sin is brought into the Sanctuary through sin being transferred to the sin offerings and blood atonement in the daily ministration of the Priesthood for the individual specific sins of God's people as shown in the scriptures in Leviticus 4:22-35. The yearly ministration of the Priesthood called the great day of atonement, cleanses the sanctuary from all the sins of Gods' people brought into it throughout the year and removes all the sin of God's people from the presence of God by transferring it to "the scapegoat" which is then led by a strong man into the wilderness according to Leviticus 16 and Leviticus 23:23-32.

Okay, I see:
"...cleanses the sanctuary from all the sins of Gods' people... and removes all the sin of God's people... by transferring it to 'the scapegoat'... "

That sounds to me like the sin is sucked out of the building at a later point.

So that is what you're saying? Or that's not what you're saying?

 

[Leaf473]

Your response here...

Already addressed and answered through the scriptures in the post you are quoting from

Apparently I don't understand your answer, then.

To support the idea that
at the second coming all the sins of the world are placed on Satan
two scripture references were given: Revelation 20:1-3 and Revelation 22:11-15.

I don't see that either scripture reference talks about sin being placed on Satan.

##########

Since this is the denomination specific section, I think the whole question is whether SDA theology endorses the above idea.

If that is SDA theology, is it something you agree with and want to defend?

 

[Leaf473]

Not exactly. The post you are part quoting from in post # 459 linked is showing the difference in the application of atonement between "the Lords goat" and "the scapegoat" and how "the scapegoat cannot represent Jesus (you may want to read also post # 462 linked) as true atonement for sin can only be made in the death of the sin offering and blood atonement for sin for Gods' forgiveness of sins. Only the death of the sin offering from "the Lords goat" pays the penalty for sin (death) and blood atonement by the Priest receives Gods forgiveness and cleansing of sin. In the yearly the transference of all the sins of Gods' people to "the scapegoat" that is kept alive only represents all the sins of Gods' people being returned to the originator of sin who pays the final penalty of all the sins of Gods people (death). Atonement in this sense is simply returning all sin to the originator of sin that "the Lords goat" Jesus purchased through blood atonement and Jesus as both our true sin sacrifice through blood atonement and our great high priest removing all sin from Gods people and the presence of God to the originator of all sin that is led away awaiting Gods' final punishment for all sin

Take Care.

Two different applications of atonement, then?

"Purchasing" atonement and "returning" atonement?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ No. According to the scriptures, sin is brought into the Sanctuary through sin being transferred to the sin offerings and blood atonement in the daily ministration of the Priesthood for the individual specific sins of God's people as shown in the scriptures in Leviticus 4:22-35. The yearly ministration of the Priesthood called the great day of atonement, cleanses the sanctuary from all the sins of Gods' people brought into it throughout the year and removes all the sin of God's people from the presence of God by transferring it to "the scapegoat" which is then led by a strong man into the wilderness according to Leviticus 16 and Leviticus 23:23-32.

Your response...

Okay, I see:
"...cleanses the sanctuary from all the sins of Gods' people... and removes all the sin of God's people... by transferring it to 'the scapegoat'... "

That sounds to me like the sin is sucked out of the building at a later point.

So that is what you're saying? Or that's not what you're saying?

Already answered in the post you are responding to.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Apparently I don't understand your answer, then

Ok perhaps you can pray about it.

 

[Leaf473]

Thanks Leaf, yes I do not mind talking about these things. The only reason I joined in was because I was interested in the topic of the Sanctuary and have enjoyed our discussion here. As shown why through the scriptures already I believe the strongest scripture support shows Satan represents "the scapegoat". There is no fitting Jesus into the scapegoat view because it makes of none effect sin sacrifice and blood atonement of Jesus as the all sufficient sacrifice of sin. Then we have Jesus as our Great high Priest placing all the sins of Gods' people as our true sin offering (Lord's goat) and blood atonement who then after the Sanctuary is cleansed and God's people sins atoned confessing all the sins of Gods' people upon himself again as the "supposed scapregoat" then as the scapegoat to be led out from the presence of God by a strong man into the wilderness to remove all the sins of God's people from the presence of God into the wilderness. This simply makes no sense and is not biblical or supported in old or new covenant scripture in my view.

Anyhow Take care.

You're welcome.

A logic question:
If Jesus is not the scapegoat, does it necessarily follow that Satan is?

For me the conclusion that Satan is the final bearer of the sins of the world conflicts with what John the Baptist says,
"Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

Do you think White was exercising the gift of prophecy when she wrote on this subject? Is that something you're interested in talking about?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Two different applications of atonement, then? "Purchasing" atonement and "returning" atonement?

Kind of. Better said two different kinds of atonement. The Lord's goat (Jesus) makes our atonement through blood sacrifice and His death (purchased). The scapegoat is for the removal of all sin by atonement with God (Leviticus 16:10) where all sin is transferred to the scapegoat being "kept alive" and led into the wilderness by a strong man.