Seventh-Day Adventist Beliefs? are they absolute?

[RC_NewProtestants]

While you are correct that Doug Batchelor is and evangelist and not a Biblical scholar you should also have stated that you are in neither category, you are a propagandist as illustrated with your choice of terms to describe how he handled the text.

While the verse in question isn't directly talking about piercing the ears for jewelry Doug Batchelor was entitled (homeletically) to draw the inference from it.



I'd like to see the proof for that claim. It will probably bear as much weight as the plagiarism claim.

DJ I supported all my statements. You can take anything and use it as a homiletic but the book was not simply a sermon it intended to tell us what the Bible says. You could say that donald duck was the most powerful creation in the world in a homiletic. But intelligent people are going to take you to task if you do. There is no legitimate defense for Batchelor. And this is not the first time he has done this type of foolish manipulation. He constantly does it. See my article:
It's Not A Jesuit Plot


If you can't defend Batchelor's statements why do you feel the need to attack me for stating the truth?

 

[Dania]

feel so overcome by this. batchelor is just a cool pastor. if he made a couple assumptions manipulations mistake watever u call it... SO WAT! ALL PASTOR DO IT SOME POINT DOWN THE LINE! IT IS MISTAKES LIKE THIS THAT CAUSE 13000 DENOMINATION IN ONE RELIGION! so as jesus said who is without fault cast the first stone!

besides if something is indeed manipulated its up to the ppl 2 read for themselves and see. if not they havent been doing their part in this Walk! for not every fruit of al trees r good to eat

 

[moicherie]

Moicherie, as I have said repeatedly else where in this thread, the final choice of what to do, or not do, is always up to the individual.

In your post where you stated; Please note that all I have done is attempt to answer honest questions ask in the OP. I also have stated that there has not been, nor will there be, any condemnation or ridicule over such matters. You are 100% correct when you indicate that there are better ways to spend our time. That is why I try to spend as little time as possible in debate with other SDAs. It is also the reason I have defended the biblical principlas involved when honest questions have been ask by a new Adventist.

Your final statement to the original poster:
I must now ask this question. Are you really as contemptous of those who accept biblical principals as this statement would seem to indicate? I also have to question the impression that has been made on the original poster.

Respectfully,
Doc

The biblical priniciple is modesty which I have not questioned so your statement about me is false.

 

[Loveaboveall]

The biblical priniciple is modesty which I have not questioned so your statement about me is false.

There is not just one bibilical principle when speaking of Jewlery. There is also a principle called humility, which seeks to elevate God and not ourselves.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

feel so overcome by this. batchelor is just a cool pastor. if he made a couple assumptions manipulations mistake watever u call it... SO WAT! ALL PASTOR DO IT SOME POINT DOWN THE LINE! IT IS MISTAKES LIKE THIS THAT CAUSE 13000 DENOMINATION IN ONE RELIGION! so as jesus said who is without fault cast the first stone!

besides if something is indeed manipulated its up to the ppl 2 read for themselves and see. if not they havent been doing their part in this Walk! for not every fruit of al trees r good to eat

A couple of things here. First if you read the verse he was using about cutting there is no way it was used by mistake. He wrote the text using ellipses so as to remove the verse from its context. It was not an accident or unintended mistake. If you think Batchelor is a cool pastor that is your opinion, though if you have only been in the church a few weeks or months how you could know that I am skeptical.

Second it is up to people to read and see if what someone says is true. Of course if it is not true you would not expect that people would say "keep it to yourselves and don't tell anybody". You expect that thinking people will say what they determine. That is why I even mentioned Batchelor's quote. It was from Batchelor that Doc seems to think that here is someone who can answer the question about jewelry. Doc then said very specifically:

However please don't try to include me when you say "we." And, no, the principal isn't modesty alone. In the case of piercings there is direct biblical prohibition against it.
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=43474534&postcount=40

I having grown up as a Christian SDA could not think of anywhere that the Bible prohibited piercings such as in earrings. Since the Bible talks about earrings and I knew that. So I searched Batchelor's article Doc posted and saw his only statement about piercings. And it was clearly a misuse of the text. So you see there is an affect upon people who don't question and simply repeat what someone else said. Then of course they get upset when they are shown to be wrong and their favorite pastor is shown to be wrong. So there are people and in my opinion way to many people who won't look at things for themselves, who simply want someone to tell them what to think. It may be nice to say well people should read for themselves and see but there is a significant segment that won't.

 

[djconklin]

DJ I supported all my statements.

You did not support the statement that you cut out ("Because even if he is close to the Adventist position his material is so poorly researched that it is an embarrassment to the denomination."). I asked because you didn't support it.

You can take anything and use it as a homiletic but the book was not simply a sermon

Homelitic isn't limited to a sermon.

If you can't defend Batchelor's statements why do you feel the need to attack me for stating the truth?

1) I am not obligated to defend anyone.
2) I wasn't attacking you.
3) Whether what you said was true or not is still not proven. I asked you for evidence.

 

[djconklin]

He wrote the text using ellipses so as to remove the verse from its context.

Look at the prolific use of ellipsis in Rea's book.

BTW, Doug wasn't using the text by context--he was using it for the principle. In that case, he isn't obligated to use the context.

If you can't defend Batchelor's statements why do you feel the need to attack me for stating the truth?

According to whom? What standard is there to determine when a text has been properly used?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Look at the prolific use of ellipsis in Rea's book.

BTW, Doug wasn't using the text by context--he was using it for the principle. In that case, he isn't obligated to use the context.



According to whom? What standard is there to determine when a text has been properly used?

Wow that is like saying we don't need any logic do as you please. "A text taken out of context is a pretext." You make it a "principle". You can never understand written material if you apply such techniques.

 

[djconklin]

Wow that is like saying we don't need any logic do as you please.

Not even close. The text had a principle behind it and that is what Doug was pointing to.

The personal attack was not called for.

 

[moicherie]

There is not just one bibilical principle when speaking of Jewlery. There is also a principle called humility, which seeks to elevate God and not ourselves.

and not wearing jewelry does not mean you are humble...read the bible God's reference to jewelry if He was anti the practise of wearing jewels there is nothing in the bible to support this view. We are practising leftovers of Puritanism and they sure knew how to enjoy life.....not
(We can just about accept sex is not just for procreation....)

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Not even close. The text had a principle behind it and that is what Doug was pointing to.

The personal attack was not called for.

Well then why did not Batchelor point to a verse that stated the "principle" because his "principle" was no piercing for jewelry. You can't run away from context and if you do then you understand little. Because you are not using the intent or meaning of the author.

So you can report me all you want but it is still reality.

 

[djconklin]

Well then why did not Batchelor point to a verse that stated the "principle" because his "principle" was no piercing for jewelry.

The reality is that he didn't have to point to a text that states the principle.

 

[Loveaboveall]

and not wearing jewelry does not mean you are humble...read the bible God's reference to jewelry if He was anti the practise of wearing jewels there is nothing in the bible to support this view. We are practising leftovers of Puritanism and they sure knew how to enjoy life.....not
(We can just about accept sex is not just for procreation....)

Do you believe Jesus wore "stuff" to attract attention to his masculine features? Is there any room for vanity in a humility? Are all of us guilty of vanity? I would presume we are in some capacity, but that does not negate the fact that it is wrong. Why make excuses for selfishness/lack of humility instead of asking God to help you in your struggle with the flesh?

 

[moicherie]

Do you believe Jesus wore "stuff" to attract attention to his masculine features? Is there any room for vanity in a humility? Are all of us guilty of vanity? I would presume we are in some capacity, but that does not negate the fact that it is wrong. Why make excuses for selfishness/lack of humility instead of asking God to help you in your struggle with the flesh?

Wearing jewelry does not automatically equate to selfishness or lack of humilty or vanity no matter how you might wish it. Jesus came as a carpenter and perhaps dressed like a typical Palestinian Jewish teacher or are you suggesting we should dress just like Jesus? Keep the blinders on if you must but the bible has many postive statements about jewels some of them describing how God sees his people. There are vain, selfish non wearing jewels Christians in this world and some of them are even Adventists.
Prejudging a person's Christianity based on their jewels says more about you then it does about them.

 

[JonMiller]

most jewelry that people wear now days is cheaper then the suits that are common in adventist churchs

now some of it is tacky...

also, some people do have a set of more expensive jewelry, I admit that this can soimetimes be a problem... but that isn't inherent to modern jewelry, and people can spend far more on a car or house or computer and everyone minds their own business

JM

 

[Dania]

A couple of things here. First if you read the verse he was using about cutting there is no way it was used by mistake. He wrote the text using ellipses so as to remove the verse from its context. It was not an accident or unintended mistake. If you think Batchelor is a cool pastor that is your opinion, though if you have only been in the church a few weeks or months how you could know that I am skeptical.

Second it is up to people to read and see if what someone says is true. Of course if it is not true you would not expect that people would say "keep it to yourselves and don't tell anybody". You expect that thinking people will say what they determine. That is why I even mentioned Batchelor's quote. It was from Batchelor that Doc seems to think that here is someone who can answer the question about jewelry. Doc then said very specifically:


I having grown up as a Christian SDA could not think of anywhere that the Bible prohibited piercings such as in earrings. Since the Bible talks about earrings and I knew that. So I searched Batchelor's article Doc posted and saw his only statement about piercings. And it was clearly a misuse of the text. So you see there is an affect upon people who don't question and simply repeat what someone else said. Then of course they get upset when they are shown to be wrong and their favorite pastor is shown to be wrong. So there are people and in my opinion way to many people who won't look at things for themselves, who simply want someone to tell them what to think. It may be nice to say well people should read for themselves and see but there is a significant segment that won't.

um.. as i said before :
I DONT CARE!!!! WHAT HE SAID.... all preachers do it. hence 13000 denominations!!!!!! so why BASH doug.... so what..
as my people would say
"TEK EVERYTHING WID A GRAIN A SALT"
means u mustnt be gullible... or u should be very sketical whne reading commentary on the bible... the cripple the thinking process if u only rely on what someone else say!! so! can we move on from that

 

[Dania]

most jewelry that people wear now days is cheaper then the suits that are common in adventist churchs

now some of it is tacky...

also, some people do have a set of more expensive jewelry, I admit that this can soimetimes be a problem... but that isn't inherent to modern jewelry, and people can spend far more on a car or house or computer and everyone minds their own business

JM

the jewelry is cheaper that the suits?
um... what are u saying? they shouldnt wear suits?? etc?

 

[JonMiller]

the jewelry is cheaper that the suits?
um... what are u saying? they shouldnt wear suits?? etc?

It is hypocritical to censor jewelry and wear suits.

JM

 

[sentipente]

No one is required to wear jewelry but it is misrepresentation to suggest that one who wears jewelry is disobeying his Creator.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

um.. as i said before :
I DONT CARE!!!! WHAT HE SAID.... all preachers do it. hence 13000 denominations!!!!!! so why BASH doug.... so what..
as my people would say
"TEK EVERYTHING WID A GRAIN A SALT"
means u mustnt be gullible... or u should be very sketical whne reading commentary on the bible... the cripple the thinking process if u only rely on what someone else say!! so! can we move on from that

Now why should I care what you say above. Who cares what you or anyone says? The reason is that false ideas will inevitably lead to more false ideas. There will be people like Doc who simply accept the false idea and there will be people like DJ who say that the false idea is more important the the context of the text from which the false idea is taken.

Gullible people will remain gullible but that does not mean we should ignore people who stand as leaders who teach errors. Whether there are 1000's of denominations or not. The argument that there are other's preaching errors won't work any better then when you get a speeding ticket and you say but look at all the other speeders.