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Setting the Record Straight

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AV1611VET

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America still has people promoting violence and hate in the name of religion.
Violence, religion, hate: three relative terms, usually taken out of context.

Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
KTS said:
I'd be more than happy to provide examples.
No, thank you.

I've see God accused of violence and hate, without due respect to context; and I'm sure it would be nothing at all to accuse His children of the same.

I'm glad to hear you say 'in the name of religion,' though; as opposed to 'in the name of Jesus Christ.'
 
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Kylie

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Violence, religion, hate: three relative terms, usually taken out of context.

Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.


Of course, there are passages in the Quran that preach peace as well. But of course, followers of every religion say this sort of thing...

No, thank you.

I've see God accused of violence and hate, without due respect to context; and I'm sure it would be nothing at all to accuse His children of the same.

Perhaps it points to a problem with religion in general - that it is so easily used to justify hatred and violence.

Kinda makes me wonder why God doesn't put a stop to it...

[/quote]I'm glad to hear you say 'in the name of religion,' though; as opposed to 'in the name of Jesus Christ.'[/QUOTE]

Oh, AV, of course, I'm not under the impression that Christianity has a monopoly on religiously motivated violence. ALL religions are guilty of it.
 
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miknik5

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All you have done is tell me things that Christianity has.

It's like an argument about which is better, Star Trek or Star Wars. One person might say that Star Wars is better because it has light sabers. The other might say that Star Trek is better because it has Klingons. But neither of those things is going to convince the other, is it? Likewise, you can tell me that you have Jesus in Christianity, and despite the fact that you are right that only Christianity claims Jesus as the son of God, that isn't going to convince someone who doesn't already believe.

And every religion has something similar, just as I've said.
Oh well There really isn't anything more that one can do

Two armies. (One for...one against)
One battle
One Victor
 
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miknik5

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All you have done is tell me things that Christianity has.

It's like an argument about which is better, Star Trek or Star Wars. One person might say that Star Wars is better because it has light sabers. The other might say that Star Trek is better because it has Klingons. But neither of those things is going to convince the other, is it? Likewise, you can tell me that you have Jesus in Christianity, and despite the fact that you are right that only Christianity claims Jesus as the son of God, that isn't going to convince someone who doesn't already believe.

And every religion has something similar, just as I've said.
And just as I have said, only one faith has THE TESTIMONY of THE SON of GOD, the LORD JESUS CHRIST as THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE...that no man can come to THE FATHER except through HIM

So, on that day, you can try suggesting "another way"

But it's not THE WAY
 
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miknik5

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Your point was a strawman.

You tried to say what I promote, and you tried to say that I have a faith.

You also tried to claim that I was unfairly biasing my point by using a peaceful secular country as an example. Very well - please feel free to give me an example of a very violent secular country if you think that will be better. You may find one or two, but I've found that most secular countries tend to be quite nice places to live.

You also claimed that the only reason that secular countries are peaceful is because they got their peaceful ways from the religious forebears - and yet the most religious countries in the world tend to be more violent. Even in the USA, there's quite a bit of violence, and a lot of it is promoted by religious people. If you want specific examples, I'd be happy to provide them.

So, if you actually HAD a legitimate point, I must have missed it. Perhaps you can sum it up in a single sentence?
You also have a claim
That religion somehow equals GOD

But while there are many who practice religions, there is only ONE GOD, ONE TRUTH, and ONE TESTIMONY to that TRUTH
 
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bhsmte

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You also have a claim
That religion somehow equals GOD

But while there are many who practice religions, there is only ONE GOD, ONE TRUTH, and ONE TESTIMONY to that TRUTH

There exist countless personal characterizations of this God, which disagree with your personal interpretation of this God.

That is, reality.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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And just as I have said, only one faith has THE TESTIMONY of THE SON of GOD, the LORD JESUS CHRIST as THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE...that no man can come to THE FATHER except through HIM
Putting it in all caps (i.e. shouting) doesn't make it any more special - every faith has its own testimonies, and they all have their own special dogma and catch-phrases.

... you can try suggesting "another way"

But it's not THE WAY
That's what they all say.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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... while there are many who practice religions, there is only ONE GOD, ONE TRUTH, and ONE TESTIMONY to that TRUTH
You mean Vishnu, Hinduism, the Vedas and Upanishads ?

Or any of hundreds of other gods, truths, and testimonies. If you narrow your scope to exclude all others, yours can always be the 'only' one...

Take off the blinkers.
 
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bhsmte

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You mean Vishnu, Hinduism, the Vedas and Upanishads ?

Or any of hundreds of other gods, truths, and testimonies. If you narrow your scope to exclude all others, yours can always be the 'only' one...

Take off the blinkers.

Those blinders provide at least a temporary comfort.
 
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miknik5

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There exist countless personal characterizations of this God, which disagree with your personal interpretation of this God.

That is, reality.
The reality is that HE sees where no men can

And HE knows the difference between those who worship in spirit and in TRUTH from those who simply do lip service to HIS NAME
 
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Kylie

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And just as I have said, only one faith has THE TESTIMONY of THE SON of GOD, the LORD JESUS CHRIST as THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE...that no man can come to THE FATHER except through HIM

So, on that day, you can try suggesting "another way"

But it's not THE WAY

People of every religion claim that theirs is the one true way.
 
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morse86

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People of every religion claim that theirs is the one true way.

Yes, of every religion but not of Jesus.

John 14:6:
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That is the verse that separates the things of the world and the things of God.

John 5:22:
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the So

Matthew 7:13-14:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Let the world claim whatever it wants to claim....but the word of God shall stay true. Those that have ears will hear.

Matthew 11:15:

15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
 
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Kylie

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I don't believe that.

You'd be wrong. As afar as I am aware, nearly every religion says that it is the truth about God and all that. (I think there might be that religion which basically takes the good bits of all the others and ignores that bad bits which might have more of a "hey, whatever works for you is cool" attitude, but I could be wrong.)
 
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Kylie

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Yes, of every religion but not of Jesus.

So? They have their own things which Christianity doesn't have.

That is the verse that separates the things of the world and the things of God.

Followers of every religion like to quote their own holy book as thought it will convince those who don't believe it.

Let the world claim whatever it wants to claim....but the word of God shall stay true. Those that have ears will hear.

People of every religion say the same thing.
 
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Colter

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People of every religion claim that theirs is the one true way.
Generally speaking you are correct. I might point out that Atheist can be dogmatic as well, but still, you are correct. For me and my theology God is personal to each individual, each child of God, each person who seeks for God. Religious institutions and dogmas are evolutionary, human. My experiences with the Father are personal to me and It would be wrong for me to say you should understand God as I do. Unity not necessarily uniformity.

from my theology:

THE NATURE OF EVOLUTIONARY RELIGION

"The study of human religion is the examination of the fossil-bearing social strata of past ages. The mores of the anthropomorphic gods are a truthful reflection of the morals of the men who first conceived such deities. Ancient religions and mythology faithfully portray the beliefs and traditions of peoples long since lost in obscurity. These olden cult practices persist alongside newer economic customs and social evolutions and, of course, appear grossly inconsistent. The remnants of the cult present a true picture of the racial religions of the past. Always remember, the cults are formed, not to discover truth, but rather to promulgate their creeds.

Religion has always been largely a matter of rites, rituals, observances, ceremonies, and dogmas. It has usually become tainted with that persistently mischief-making error, the chosen-people delusion. The cardinal religious ideas of incantation, inspiration, revelation, propitiation, repentance, atonement, intercession, sacrifice, prayer, confession, worship, survival after death, sacrament, ritual, ransom, salvation, redemption, covenant, uncleanness, purification, prophecy, original sin—they all go back to the early times of primordial ghost fear.

Primitive religion is nothing more nor less than the struggle for material existence extended to embrace existence beyond the grave. The observances of such a creed represented the extension of the self-maintenance struggle into the domain of an imagined ghost-spirit world. But when tempted to criticize evolutionary religion, be careful. Remember, that is what happened; it is a historical fact. And further recall that the power of any idea lies, not in its certainty or truth, but rather in the vividness of its human appeal.

Evolutionary religion makes no provision for change or revision; unlike science, it does not provide for its own progressive correction. Evolved religion commands respect because its followers believe it is The Truth; “the faith once delivered to the saints” must, in theory, be both final and infallible. The cult resists development because real progress is certain to modify or destroy the cult itself; therefore must revision always be forced upon it.

Only two influences can modify and uplift the dogmas of natural religion: the pressure of the slowly advancing mores and the periodic illumination of epochal revelation. And it is not strange that progress was slow; in ancient days, to be progressive or inventive meant to be killed as a sorcerer. The cult advances slowly in generation epochs and agelong cycles. But it does move forward. Evolutionary belief in ghosts laid the foundation for a philosophy of revealed religion which will eventually destroy the superstition of its origin.

Religion has handicapped social development in many ways, but without religion there would have been no enduring morality nor ethics, no worth-while civilization. Religion enmothered much nonreligious culture: Sculpture originated in idol making, architecture in temple building, poetry in incantations, music in worship chants, drama in the acting for spirit guidance, and dancing in the seasonal worship festivals.

But while calling attention to the fact that religion was essential to the development and preservation of civilization, it should be recorded that natural religion has also done much to cripple and handicap the very civilization which it otherwise fostered and maintained. Religion has hampered industrial activities and economic development; it has been wasteful of labor and has squandered capital; it has not always been helpful to the family; it has not adequately fostered peace and good will; it has sometimes neglected education and retarded science; it has unduly impoverished life for the pretended enrichment of death. Evolutionary religion, human religion, has indeed been guilty of all these and many more mistakes, errors, and blunders; nevertheless, it did maintain cultural ethics, civilized morality, and social coherence, and made it possible for later revealed religion to compensate for these many evolutionary shortcomings.

Evolutionary religion has been man's most expensive but incomparably effective institution. Human religion can be justified only in the light of evolutionary civilization. If man were not the ascendant product of animal evolution, then would such a course of religious development stand without justification.

Religion facilitated the accumulation of capital; it fostered work of certain kinds; the leisure of the priests promoted art and knowledge; the race, in the end, gained much as a result of all these early errors in ethical technique. The shamans, honest and dishonest, were terribly expensive, but they were worth all they cost. The learned professions and science itself emerged from the parasitical priesthoods. Religion fostered civilization and provided societal continuity; it has been the moral police force of all time. Religion provided that human discipline and self-control which made wisdom possible. Religion is the efficient scourge of evolution which ruthlessly drives indolent and suffering humanity from its natural state of intellectual inertia forward and upward to the higher levels of reason and wisdom.

And this sacred heritage of animal ascent, evolutionary religion, must ever continue to be refined and ennobled by the continuous censorship of revealed religion and by the fiery furnace of genuine science." UB 1955
 
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Jimmy D

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Generally speaking you are correct. I might point out that Atheist can be dogmatic as well, but still, you are correct. For me and my theology God is personal to each individual, each child of God, each person who seeks for God. Religious institutions and dogmas are evolutionary, human. My experiences with the Father are personal to me and It would be wrong for me to say you should understand God as I do. Unity not necessarily uniformity.

from my theology:

THE NATURE OF EVOLUTIONARY RELIGION

"The study of human religion is the examination of the fossil-bearing social strata of past ages. The mores of the anthropomorphic gods are a truthful reflection of the morals of the men who first conceived such deities. Ancient religions and mythology faithfully portray the beliefs and traditions of peoples long since lost in obscurity. These olden cult practices persist alongside newer economic customs and social evolutions and, of course, appear grossly inconsistent. The remnants of the cult present a true picture of the racial religions of the past. Always remember, the cults are formed, not to discover truth, but rather to promulgate their creeds.

Religion has always been largely a matter of rites, rituals, observances, ceremonies, and dogmas. It has usually become tainted with that persistently mischief-making error, the chosen-people delusion. The cardinal religious ideas of incantation, inspiration, revelation, propitiation, repentance, atonement, intercession, sacrifice, prayer, confession, worship, survival after death, sacrament, ritual, ransom, salvation, redemption, covenant, uncleanness, purification, prophecy, original sin—they all go back to the early times of primordial ghost fear.

Primitive religion is nothing more nor less than the struggle for material existence extended to embrace existence beyond the grave. The observances of such a creed represented the extension of the self-maintenance struggle into the domain of an imagined ghost-spirit world. But when tempted to criticize evolutionary religion, be careful. Remember, that is what happened; it is a historical fact. And further recall that the power of any idea lies, not in its certainty or truth, but rather in the vividness of its human appeal.

Evolutionary religion makes no provision for change or revision; unlike science, it does not provide for its own progressive correction. Evolved religion commands respect because its followers believe it is The Truth; “the faith once delivered to the saints” must, in theory, be both final and infallible. The cult resists development because real progress is certain to modify or destroy the cult itself; therefore must revision always be forced upon it.

Only two influences can modify and uplift the dogmas of natural religion: the pressure of the slowly advancing mores and the periodic illumination of epochal revelation. And it is not strange that progress was slow; in ancient days, to be progressive or inventive meant to be killed as a sorcerer. The cult advances slowly in generation epochs and agelong cycles. But it does move forward. Evolutionary belief in ghosts laid the foundation for a philosophy of revealed religion which will eventually destroy the superstition of its origin.

Religion has handicapped social development in many ways, but without religion there would have been no enduring morality nor ethics, no worth-while civilization. Religion enmothered much nonreligious culture: Sculpture originated in idol making, architecture in temple building, poetry in incantations, music in worship chants, drama in the acting for spirit guidance, and dancing in the seasonal worship festivals.

But while calling attention to the fact that religion was essential to the development and preservation of civilization, it should be recorded that natural religion has also done much to cripple and handicap the very civilization which it otherwise fostered and maintained. Religion has hampered industrial activities and economic development; it has been wasteful of labor and has squandered capital; it has not always been helpful to the family; it has not adequately fostered peace and good will; it has sometimes neglected education and retarded science; it has unduly impoverished life for the pretended enrichment of death. Evolutionary religion, human religion, has indeed been guilty of all these and many more mistakes, errors, and blunders; nevertheless, it did maintain cultural ethics, civilized morality, and social coherence, and made it possible for later revealed religion to compensate for these many evolutionary shortcomings.

Evolutionary religion has been man's most expensive but incomparably effective institution. Human religion can be justified only in the light of evolutionary civilization. If man were not the ascendant product of animal evolution, then would such a course of religious development stand without justification.

Religion facilitated the accumulation of capital; it fostered work of certain kinds; the leisure of the priests promoted art and knowledge; the race, in the end, gained much as a result of all these early errors in ethical technique. The shamans, honest and dishonest, were terribly expensive, but they were worth all they cost. The learned professions and science itself emerged from the parasitical priesthoods. Religion fostered civilization and provided societal continuity; it has been the moral police force of all time. Religion provided that human discipline and self-control which made wisdom possible. Religion is the efficient scourge of evolution which ruthlessly drives indolent and suffering humanity from its natural state of intellectual inertia forward and upward to the higher levels of reason and wisdom.

And this sacred heritage of animal ascent, evolutionary religion, must ever continue to be refined and ennobled by the continuous censorship of revealed religion and by the fiery furnace of genuine science." UB 1955

I'd agree with many parts of that Colter, I'm not quite ready to convert as yet though! ;)
 
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Colter

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I'd agree with many parts of that Colter, I'm not quite ready to convert as yet though! ;)
I'm glad you were able to see the matter of fact sorts of truth in there. BTW, the UB isn't a religion, there is no leader, we have no rituals or ceremonies, ecclesiastical authorities, creeds or doctrines per say. Most readers around the world just read on their own, some cities have study groups that meet in homes, eat cake, read book, talk. The book was put in a trust in 1955 but even the copyright was broken by a court case wherein a federal judge said that celestial beings can't have a copyright in America. So it's free and open on the net. There are a few small cult communes around that have nothing to do with the trust. It's interesting to note that some of the more involved members are former Atheists.

My approach to life is that, somethings true and I'm in search of it.
 
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