Setting boundaries in marriage

[mkgal1]

Excellent post, Faithful wife. I hope it cleared up a lot of people's misconceptions. If not, I hope this discussion continues.

As Faithful wife said, boundaries are about protecting the individual setting them. They are not put into place to punish, but to not allow unhealthy behavior to affect us. (As HB explained with her story of her friend). Sometimes, if boundaries are not in place, the natural consequences that Faithfulwife mentioned are transferred to other people. Boundaries put them back on the offender. That is how they allow freedom. Does that make sense? In Yitzchak's example of the person calling in the middle of the night, when the other person had a day job and needed to be sleeping; do you see how without boundaries the innocent person was the one suffering the natural consequences? They were exhausted from the calls, but the person calling saw no harm. There is nothing *unloving* about telling someone you need to sleep at night and won't be able to answer the phone to chat in the middle of the night. I think so much pressure is put on us as Christians to accept things like that...tolerate it....don't be selfish. But, where is the freedom in that? When the person getting phone calls in the middle of the night has trouble doing their job the next day, and may struggle with wanting to say something, but feeling they shouldn't.

HB has the right idea. She is putting boundaries in place for the good of her marriage. BOTH her and her husband will benefit from her diligence and care in the long run (or have the potential to). She has decided that she wants true intimacy in her marriage as God desires for them...(right, HB)? That is what I see, anyway.

Boundaries are exactly dealing with sin. As Faithfulwife mentioned, we cannot control another person--even our spouses, but we can say (in love) that we will not allow harmful behavior.

There are a couple of verses that I can think of right now that apply:

Psalm 101
6 My eyes will be on the faithful in the land,
that they may dwell with me;
he whose walk is blameless
will minister to me.

7 No one who practices deceit
will dwell in my house;
no one who speaks falsely
will stand in my presence. 8 Every morning I will put to silence
all the wicked in the land;
I will cut off every evildoer
from the city of the LORD.

Titus 3:10
10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.

I realize this is a tricky subject, but I feel it is a very important one since it is so misunderstood.

 

[mkgal1]

Joyce Meyer has a teaching about dysfunctional relationships and she points out that if we have no boundaries , we are actaully allowing another person to control us rather than The Holy Spirit.....

How can we be led by The Holy Spirit if we lack self control in the sense that others make our decisions for us...So let's say for example God calls me to pray on a certain day and then this person I can't say no to calls and wants to go to the mall......

Imagine a pastor with no boundaries...It is sunday morning and time for him to preach but he is not there.....The reason , his unsaved uncle called and wanted to go fishing and the pastor can't say no and so he goes.

I missed this post somehow...that is the key point--that without boundaries we are being controlled by the unhealthy behavior, not the Holy Spirit. Great examples!!

 

[CuriousInIL]

Let's get specific. In the instance of hisbloodformysins, it would NOT be a "boundary" for her to say to him: "You have to stop humping on me like a dog or I won't kiss you anymore." That is just controlling with punishment. See that? But it would be a "boundary" to say "I have decided that I want to have gentle, loving, caressing sexuality in my life and I don't want to have bumping and grinding sexuality. You are completely free to have whatever kind of sexuality you choose to have--I'm not nagging you about that anymore. But I have decided I will not be responsive to grabbing and groping and I will be VERY responsive to kissing, nuzzling, hugs and mutual touching that is gentle. " Then if he decides to be gropey, that is his decision. Cool. He can pick whatever he likes! But the result is a turned-off, unreceptive wife. If he wants a turned-on, receptive wife he is JUST as free to obtain that by choosing to do what you have decided to allow in your "boundary."

Can you see the difference?

Yes, the behavior is exactly the same but different pyschobabble words are used to justify the behavior in one instance and condemn it the other.

As Faithful wife said, boundaries are about protecting the individual setting them. They are not put into place to punish, but to not allow unhealthy behavior to affect us.

One of the clear unanswered questions here is how to determine if the banned behavior is truly "unhealthy behavior" especially between spouses where at least one--presumably in good faith and with a well-formed conscience--believes it is not unhealthy and the other--who may or may not be acting in good faith and with or without a well-formed conscience--believes the opposite.

 

[janny108]

There is a book written by christian counselors and the title is "boundaries". One of the things I remember from that book is a discussion of the scripture passage from Galatians 6 where it says in verse 2 to bear one another's burdens and in verse 5 for everyone to carry their own burden.

Now at first it seems like a contradiction but the authors discuss the two different greek words used in the original greek. One means a unusually large boulder that no one can carry alone and the other means a small burden whcih is doable. Of course , the authors explain it much better..I am going on memory from several years back.

But the point is we should help someone when thye are overwhelmed and actauuly need the help... But there is a verse somewhere also that says if a man will not work he should not eat...which speaks of us not carrying other people's responsibilities for them just because they are lazy....

So this can be with a job or with emotional issues also...The book opens with a description of the day of a woman without boundaries...people ask her to do things and she cannot say no to the point where it is too much and she is collapsing under it.

I think every one who is a Christian should read this book. Can everyone say that they love selflessly? I think we need to define what that means. People use Christian terms to get what they want from us, knowing we are Christians. I recommend any book by Melody Beattie and Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend. It is not wrong to stand up for yourself. I think too many go to extremes when it comes to loving people, what is love, how do I do it, when is it not healthy, when is saying no the right thing to do, etc.
Jan

 

[janny108]

I am afraid I have to read up on what is the popular understanding of setting the boundaries means. I do not know what it means. I just know that we are to love selflessly, to hate sin (1Cor 13: 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth), and to encourage one another towards good works.
Maybe you can be more specific.

One thing I learned in the boundaries book is that we set boundaries with everyone, whether we work with them, married to them, have kids, friends, family, and not least importantly, we have boundaries with God and He with us.

From being in a 12 step group for this, and being part of other boards, I'm at the conclusion that a lot of women wait until they are older before they get that they can learn this stuff.

You say yes and you mean yes, you say no and you mean no. No mixed messages. I heard a long time ago, you train people how to treat you. Sometimes you need to step back and sort of think of how are people treating me? Did I have anything to do with enabling them to do so? You learn to set healthy boundaries with people and enjoy them. You don't get taken advantage of at work. You learn to be a healthy adult woman, regardless of your age. Your kids and husband learn to respect you more. Benefits are many.
Jan

Jan

 

[janny108]

What does this mean? This is a misuse of scripture.




It says that boundaries give you freedom. Maybe this sounds good, but where does it say that in the bible?

John 8:31 Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." ​

Teachings of Christ set us free, not boundaries. With this concept of boundaries we are not dealing with sin in our lives and the lives of others. We are just manipulating the circumstances such that we do not have to face our sin.​

You have to sort of work it out in your own life. Boundaries is not in the bible any more than masturbation is. But if you search the bible of what is true, you learn that God does not do everything for us either, we are coworkers with Him. He is our sufficiency.
Look at people in the bible and see how they handled things.

Applying boundaries is not dirty either, manipulation is rampant in our society and I don't see people in the bible being treated as "rugs" or doomats.
I think they had a good sense of who they were and what God was able to do through them. People did not try to do everything for the people they were ministering to either.

Sometimes the loving thing to do for people is get out of the way(if God tells you). When we moved 6 years ago, I was not around and some family members got saved.


Jan

 

[3girls2dogs]

I admit I haven't read the entire thread, but the idea of "boundaries" in a marriage seems strange to me. My husband isn't a child, so there isn't any type of behavior that he needs to "learn". I married him, as a whole. Not as a man to change. If I set boundaries for him, wouldn't that be trying to change who he is? And if I'm trying to do that, then what did I bother marrying him for?

I mean there are rules, I guess, like no cheating, etc., but I wouldn't consider those boundaries.

 

[janny108]

There is a book written by christian counselors and the title is "boundaries". One of the things I remember from that book is a discussion of the scripture passage from Galatians 6 where it says in verse 2 to bear one another's burdens and in verse 5 for everyone to carry their own burden.

Now at first it seems like a contradiction but the authors discuss the two different greek words used in the original greek. One means a unusually large boulder that no one can carry alone and the other means a small burden whcih is doable. Of course , the authors explain it much better..I am going on memory from several years back.

But the point is we should help someone when thye are overwhelmed and actauuly need the help... But there is a verse somewhere also that says if a man will not work he should not eat...which speaks of us not carrying other people's responsibilities for them just because they are lazy....

So this can be with a job or with emotional issues also...The book opens with a description of the day of a woman without boundaries...people ask her to do things and she cannot say no to the point where it is too much and she is collapsing under it.

Good illustration! It was hard for me years ago when I read this book, but it became more necessary for me to do so. Now I freely recommend it.
Jan

 

[janny108]

People like this are manipulators (not trying to insult your grandmother, or anything). Because they are insecure, they will never acknowledge that they are wrong. They will always throw it back on someone else. They cry or pout and make you feel guilty, or do anything to make you question yourself and back off.

Arent' resistant people classified as manipulators? Sometimes it's subtle other time not. They'll do many things because they want to be in control. My family is like that, dad even threatened one of my sisters simply because she did not AGREE on his stance in politics!! She knows she has to distance herself from him, but not alienate him herself.
Jan

 

[mkgal1]

Yes, the behavior is exactly the same but different pyschobabble words are used to justify the behavior in one instance and condemn it the other.
One of the clear unanswered questions here is how to determine if the banned behavior is truly "unhealthy behavior" especially between spouses where at least one--presumably in good faith and with a well-formed conscience--believes it is not unhealthy and the other--who may or may not be acting in good faith and with or without a well-formed conscience--believes the opposite.

Most likely, a matter of deep-kissing that you used, is an example of preference...not a matter of needing to set *boundaries*. In this case, yes, a compromise needs to be made.

Boundaries, as best as I can explain, are simply wishing to follow God's will. Nothing New Age about that. In fact, quite the opposite. New Age teaching emphasizes acceptance of other's behaviors, tolerance, and so on. People like that idea, because no one is held accountable for their actions. In Matthew 12:30 Jesus said, "He that is not with ME is against Me". There is no middle ground. Boundaries are simply a way for us to keep obstacles out of our way from doing God's will. This takes much prayer and discernment.

 

[mkgal1]

What does this mean? This is a misuse of scripture.




It says that boundaries give you freedom. Maybe this sounds good, but where does it say that in the bible?

John 8:31 Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." ​

Teachings of Christ set us free, not boundaries. With this concept of boundaries we are not dealing with sin in our lives and the lives of others. We are just manipulating the circumstances such that we do not have to face our sin.​

Please don't take this as an attack. I don't mean it that way, I just want to understand what you are thinking. In the examples that have been given by HB and Yitzchak (friend who offended HB over and over, person who had night job and called friend in middle of the night) what would you think is the best thing to do? The problem comes up when the offending person doesn't respond to a simple "no". If you told someone politely not to call in the middle of the night because you had to get up at 5 in the morning, and they began telling you that you are selfish and uncaring (when really all they are wanting to do is chat)....what would YOU do?

 

[mkgal1]

You say yes and you mean yes, you say no and you mean no. No mixed messages. I heard a long time ago, you train people how to treat you. Sometimes you need to step back and sort of think of how are people treating me? Did I have anything to do with enabling them to do so? You learn to set healthy boundaries with people and enjoy them. You don't get taken advantage of at work. You learn to be a healthy adult woman, regardless of your age. Your kids and husband learn to respect you more. Benefits are many.
Jan

Jan

You see how this enables us to truly love others? With boundaries in place, we don't have to feel like we need to avoid those co-workers that suck up our time by telling us about the latest gossip when we want to be a good worker and get our projects done on time.
Our children learn responsibility because we aren't shielding them from natural consequences and they grow. We are free to love in a healthy way, instead of carrying resentment and bitterness.

 

[mkgal1]

I admit I haven't read the entire thread, but the idea of "boundaries" in a marriage seems strange to me. My husband isn't a child, so there isn't any type of behavior that he needs to "learn". I married him, as a whole. Not as a man to change. If I set boundaries for him, wouldn't that be trying to change who he is? And if I'm trying to do that, then what did I bother marrying him for?

I mean there are rules, I guess, like no cheating, etc., but I wouldn't consider those boundaries.

Boundaries are NOT meant to change someone else. That is the opposite of boundaries...that IS manipulation.

No cheating WOULD be a boundary in marriage. Believe it or not, many spouses have broken that boundary and don't respond to the hurt of the other spouse. They refuse to end affairs, but wish to remain in the home. That is when the boundary needs to be taken to the next level, so to speak. In this case, the offended spouse has the right to leave the marriage, but if they choose to remain in the marriage, they can put up stronger boundaries that just expressing their hurt (Again, this needs to be done in love....not in anger--not to punish, but with the aim to restore). It is up to the cheating spouse to decide what they will do...end the affair and work on the marriage or leave the marriage.

 

[BigNorsk]

Please don't take this as an attack. I don't mean it that way, I just want to understand what you are thinking. In the examples that have been given by HB and Yitzchak (friend who offended HB over and over, person who had night job and called friend in middle of the night) what would you think is the best thing to do? The problem comes up when the offending person doesn't respond to a simple "no". If you told someone politely not to call in the middle of the night because you had to get up at 5 in the morning, and they began telling you that you are selfish and uncaring (when really all they are wanting to do is chat)....what would YOU do?

I'd call them back at 5.

Marv

 

[mkgal1]

I'd call them back at 5.

Marv

Haha...that would probably be what I would want to do. You are being sarcastic, right?

 

[mkgal1]

Another thing I wanted to add is, that boundaries are NOT set against people...they are set against *unhealthy* behavior. (I realize that is a vague term to a lot of you...I just don't know how else to describe it.) This allows us to separate the behavior from the offending person and allowing us to truly love them, without fear of being taken advantage of or resentment.

I thought of another Biblical example:
In Matthew 16:22, right after Jesus began explaining to the disciples that HE must be killed, Peter rebuked Jesus. Jesus replied with, "Get behind me Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Was Jesus saying that Peter was evil? NO, Peter had just confessed that Jesus was Messiah....Jesus knew that came from the Holy Spirit. Was Jesus being unloving? Of course we know the answer to this.

There are many examples of *boundaries* in the Bible. Just because the actual term isn't used, we can't say that it isn't Biblical. We need to be careful of that mindset, because our enemy is an imposter and will use *Christian* words and twist them. More important than the words are the concepts or characteristics of godly behavior.

 

[BigNorsk]

Haha...that would probably be what I would want to do. You are being sarcastic, right?

No, maybe that's why I do not get calls in the middle of the night.

Marv

 

[mkgal1]

Here is a really good explanation that I took from another thread:

A brief synopsis of the "Boundaries" concept:

A boundary, as Cloud and Townsend put it, is a property line; this is used as a metaphor for the "line" that delineates what is oneself from what is not oneself. The concept of a boundary can also be used to define what a relationship is from what it is not. Just as every self should have a clearly established and communicated boundary line, so should every relationship. The emphasis in Cloud and Townsend’s treatment, however, is on personal boundaries as they affect relationships with others. Proper boundaries promote several key essentials of healthy relationships:

Responsibility: Once it is established what is "me" and what is "not me," I know to assume ownership of, and responsibility for, what is "me," and, conversely, to eschew taking ownership of, or responsibility for, what is "not me" but is someone else’s "property," or self.

Freedom: Boundaries set the stage for personal freedom, both of oneself and of one’s partner in relationship. With clearly delineated boundaries, I will not be continually frustrated attempting to "fix" matters on someone else’s property, but will attend to what I do have control over, namely, myself. Having disowned the other person’s property, I disavow personal responsibility for the other person’s behavior and its consequences; thus, I set limits on the extent to which I allow another’s behavior to control my actions, and I recover for myself a sense of free agency. Boundaries also give me the freedom to acknowledge the freedom of the other person to manage her property as she sees fit.

Love: The exercise of self-control over one’s own property and the refusal either to exercise or to allow other-control also set the stage for a mature, mutually beneficial, loving relationship. Boundaries are especially crucial in marriage--which is, after all, primarily a relationship of love. Without boundaries, love falters, and marriage fails.

Cloud and Townsend describe how boundaries facilitate freedom and responsibility in marriage: "Other-control is the antithesis of having boundaries in marriage. Boundaries relinquish other-control for self-control (Galatians 5:23). Boundaries preserve the freedom of one’s spouse without at the same time enabling the irresponsibility of that spouse" (Boundaries in Marriage, 76).

Protection: When the other person in a relationship dishonors your personal boundaries--and/or those of the relationship--then your boundaries can serve to protect you from injury. This is accomplished by taking control of your own territory and securing its perimeter against harmful intrusions, rather than by taking control of the one who would hurt you. When you control and limit your responses to the other’s behavior in such a way that he ends up reaping bad consequences for bad behavior, then you are protected from having to experience, and assume responsibility for, all the bad consequences yourself. The net result of such action usually is to limit what the other can get away with in his relationship with you. But you do not prevent the other from engaging in bad behavior; he remains free to do so if he chooses. The price for such behavior is simply shifted from you to the one who is responsible for it.

Accepting Reality: When we establish and communicate boundaries in relationships, we say "no" to elements of abuse, control, manipulation, and denial in those relationships. Sometimes this will entail saying "no" to the relationship itself, if the other party is unwilling to accept the challenge to change and mature. Yet it is better to acknowledge and grieve the loss of the relationship, and then be free to go on to better and healthier things, than to remain enmeshed in an illusory and self-destructive quest to "win" the love of someone who simply does not have it to give.

 

[DIANAC]

Please don't take this as an attack. I don't mean it that way, I just want to understand what you are thinking. In the examples that have been given by HB and Yitzchak (friend who offended HB over and over, person who had night job and called friend in middle of the night) what would you think is the best thing to do? The problem comes up when the offending person doesn't respond to a simple "no". If you told someone politely not to call in the middle of the night because you had to get up at 5 in the morning, and they began telling you that you are selfish and uncaring (when really all they are wanting to do is chat)....what would YOU do?

Oh, no! I did not take this as an attack.
I think what is going on here is a different meaning of terminologies.
OK, let's take your example. If I am accused of being selfish and uncaring because I am not availing myself for a phone conversation at 11P, the first thing that I would do is to pray if indeed I am selfish and uncaring. Do I show care and concern and am available during the day? I would pray for God to show sin in my own heart. Do I harbor a certain unconfessed sin. If this is not the case and let's say the other party is unusually demanding, then I would say at 11P "Listen, I am falling asleep while talking on the phone. And you know that I have to get up at 5A. I will call you in the morning". And make sure that I call that person in the morning. If that person gets upset, what can I say? He will stay upset until he realizes that he can not manipulate you anymore. You have to be kind but firm.
In Mark 3:20-30 because Jesus skipped a meal Jesus's mother and brothers decided that they know better how his time should be managed. So, first they thought that he is out of his mind and then they decided to take things into their own hands and get him out of there. So, Jesus clearly said No!
What I am saying that we must be careful not to go to a questionable source of teachings. Bible has all the answers.
BTW, the synopsis above grossly misuses the scripture.
Take care,
Diana

 

[mkgal1]

Aren’t Boundaries selfish?​

No. Many people think that boundaries are about selfishness and are at their root, self-serving. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Boundaries are about freedom, and freedom is always meant to have, as it’s ultimate fruit, love. As Paul says, and we would echo to anyone who uses boundaries in a self-serving way.​

You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." (Galatians 5:13,14)​

Boundaries are about God’s restoring freedom to you and me so that we could take control of our lives to be able to love Him and others. Ultimately, that is the fruit of boundaries, to love out of freedom, and with purpose.​

From The Simple Scoop on Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud​

This is a misuse of Scripture...how so?