Seriously?

BubbaJack said:

Let me guess this straight. God creates us, plants us in a universe that is so filled with suffering that its the norm of existence. Then he tells us that we have wronged Him, and that we need his forgiveness?

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Bubba, you aren't hearing the Gospel rightly. The Good News is that God himself has made peace with you through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. No matter how mad you get, how frustrated you get, he has made peace with you just as you are, questions, doubts, frustrations and all.

Life is not a test. God is not running some kind of experiment to see if you are good enough. Life is a gift. The only question now, is knowing this, how are you going to choose to respond to that?

BubbaJack said:

Doesn't seem right, suffering because of something some other person did.

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Of course it isn't right. Pick up your cross and follow Jesus.

BubbaJack said:

Let me guess this straight. God creates us, plants us in a universe that is so filled with suffering that its the norm of existence. Then he tells us that we have wronged Him, and that we need his forgiveness?

Really struggling with this....

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God created man upright, but he has sought out many inventions. God created an agent who had the free will to choose either to follow God or to disobey him. When Adam chose to disregard the word of God, thus began the entrance of sin into the world.

Because we are all born of Adam, all of us are sinful, fallen creatures. God could have chose to leave us this way, and have this world continue in its sinful agony, even worse than it is now (since he continues by his hand to restrain us).

We have not wronged him in the sense that we take anything away from God, as in the sense of another person doing wrong unto us. He does not tolerate sin in any form, thus we are wrong in the presence of God; he cannot dwell with us for our sinful natures.

We need the forgiveness of God in order for us to exist with him eternally in fellowship, if that is what we want to do. Many of us want to have nothing to do with God, and in the end that is what such people will get--an eternity without the presence of God.

BubbaJack said:

Doesn't seem right, suffering because of something some other person did.

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You are not punished for his sin, you are punished for your own sin. If you can lead a sinless life, you would be able to stand before God without any problem. However, you do sin because you have a sinful nature inherited from Adam, just as a cat inherits the nature of a carnivore because it is a cat. It can't just choose on it's own to become a vegetarian. That involves a supernatural act, just as our regeneration into believers upon Christ does.

rockytopva said:

Before the Big Bang - There dwelt...

1. The God head - Father, Son, and Holy Ghost
2. Three groups of angels...
___a. Michael - Strong Angels
___b. Gabriel - Wise Angels
___c. Lucifer - Worshiping angels -

I believe that the creation of this universe is in response to Lucifer's fall.

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: - Revelation 12:4

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:- Isaiah 14:12

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. - Revelation 12




How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! - Isaiah 14:12

Lucifer - heylel in the Hebrew (light bearer) from halal - Or to shine
***Note as this is a Hebrew word it is not a king of Babylon

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. - Revelation 12:17

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. - Jude 1:6

So, now, we have vacated heavens. The creation of this universe was in response to Lucifer's fall. God created man to replace Lucifer's vacated position and the fallen angels vacated estates. They know this and war with us over their old toys.

God created man to replace Lucifer's third. He could have just created the third and placed them in heaven. Why not created this present universe and earth and provide a way for us humans to rise to the level of the vacated third? As we have suffering in this life, so we will much more appreciate heaven once we get there.

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We can note that the angels are not a part of the seven day creation, and that The Tree of the Knowledge of God and Evil preceded the Fall of mankind. That means that evil preceded the fall, for how would there be any knowledge of something that was not in existence?
Whatever the intent of the snake was towards Adam and Eve, it was not innocent. Rather than fighting the snake though, Adam and Eve cooperated with him.
That is where mankind is at right now.
The Fall of Adam did not create evil in the world,. That evil preexisted the Fall. It was not a part of God's creation, but a result of the angels cast out of heaven and to the earth.
The first Adam failed in his task them to persevere in the world and have dominion over it. The Second Adam redeems what the first Adam could not.
I think yours is a very coherent answer to the questions of the OP. It addresses the seriousness of the task at hand, to be the hands and heart of God in this world, teeming with demons as it is, and bring the light of God into a very dark place indeed.

Seriously.

BubbaJack said:

Thank you for all the replies. I was in a real funk, and I will be again for sure. I have an ailment that makes me miserable.

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It might surprise you to hear, but I've often found the case that I just need to hear the Gospel all over again. Because sometimes it's too good to be true.

When you are sick its easy to try to intellectualize your problems. I would recommend taking medicine, praying, and seeking out some friends instead.

food4thought said:

Hi BubbaJack. I understand your struggle. The world is full of suffering largely because people do not love one another the way God commands us to (Matthew 22:39)... this is a great sin and we are all guilty of it to some degree, therefore God is just in bringing judgment upon us. The world could be a glorious place full of peace and joy if we all loved one another, but none of us consistently do, therefore the world is full of suffering and misery. No big mystery, man.

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This is pretty consistent with my own perspective. How much suffering happens in the world today as a direct result of people making choices? I'd suggest just about all of it.

The irony is that if God did start removing the ability for people to make choices which led to others' suffering, he'd be blamed for that, too (i.e. why doesn't God allow us to make our own choices, what a tyrant, etc...)

BubbaJack said:

Thank you for all the replies. I was in a real funk, and I will be again for sure. I have an ailment that makes me miserable.

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Sorry to hear that. I think it's great that you're still trying. I've heard it said that discipline is to find meaning in suffering. Keep up the good work.

throughfireytrial said:

I already pointed out that we can't help some of it because we were born in sin. Didn't you see those passages? Once we come to Christ He credits us with righteousness and thus imputes us with His holiness and enables us to walk a faithful life. Everyone continues to stumble in our human, sinful nature crops up, and that sinful nature will remain with us until we reach heaven where the curse of sin will be permanently removed (Revelation 22:3). This does not mean we are free to please the sinful nature any longer, but we rather call upon Christ in our weaknesses.

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What sin is the Blood of Jesus not able to cleanse us from? What bondage is God not able to set us free from? I tend to endorse the Holiness teachings of John Wesley.

BubbaJack said:

Thank you for all the replies. I was in a real funk, and I will be again for sure. I have an ailment that makes me miserable.

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We do not have to conform, we can be transformed:
Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

THE W said:

man wronged God and was punished

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You can not wrong God and man was not punished. When people break or violate the law of God built into the fabric of the universe then he has to deal with the consequences of that. Just like when we break the natural laws of science.

BubbaJack said:

Not anyone I know. But we didn't grow figs in Georgia.



Other people. I really hate other people.

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Hey Faith seeker
Perhaps this will help; I believe we all have to eat of the tree of good and bad, to see who we really are... even to death. God can give everlasting life, so he's got to be sure he doesn't give it to a bad guy. Get it ?
Forget about the "holier than thou" types around. Our Lord is humble and cool, and to be considered "righteous" is just to be kind. See the Judgement at Math 25; 31-46. That it Bro.

joshua 1 9 said:

You can not wrong God and man was not punished. When people break or violate the law of God built into the fabric of the universe then he has to deal with the consequences of that. Just like when we break the natural laws of science.

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cool story bro

joshua 1 9 said:

We do not have to conform, we can be transformed:
Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

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Good advice. But good advice is not always good news.

joshua 1 9 said:

What sin is the Blood of Jesus not able to cleanse us from? What bondage is God not able to set us free from? I tend to endorse the Holiness teachings of John Wesley.

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Now you are only confusing the issue...Jesus faith in Jesus totally cleanses us, but you said we are born in sinlessness which is false.

BubbaJack said:

Let me guess this straight. God creates us, plants us in a universe that is so filled with suffering that its the norm of existence. Then he tells us that we have wronged Him, and that we need his forgiveness?

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12 Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death resulted from sin, therefore everyone dies, because everyone has sinned.
13 Certainly sin was in the world before the Law was given, but no record of sin is kept when there is no Law.
14 Nevertheless, death ruled from the time of Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way Adam did when he disobeyed. He is a foreshadowing of the one who would come.
15 But God's free gift is not like Adam's offense. For if many people died as the result of one man's offense, how much more have God's grace and the free gift given through the kindness of one man, Jesus the Messiah, been showered on many people!
16 Nor can the free gift be compared to what came through the man who sinned. For the sentence that followed one man's offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift brought justification, even after many offenses.
17 For if, through one man, death ruled because of that man's offense, how much more will those who receive such overflowing grace and the gift of righteousness rule in life because of one man, Jesus the Messiah!
18 Consequently, just as one offense resulted in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in justification and life for everyone.
19 For just as through one man's disobedience many people were made sinners, so also through one man's obedience many people will be made righteous.
20 Now the Law crept in so that the offense would increase. But where sin increased, grace increased even more,
21 so that, just as sin ruled by bringing death, so also grace might rule by bringing justification that results in eternal life through Jesus the Messiah, our Lord.
Romans 5:12-21 (ISV)

throughfireytrial said:

Now you are only confusing the issue...Jesus faith in Jesus totally cleanses us, but you said we are born in sinlessness which is false.

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Not your job to correct, you are derailing the thread. Let each person give their own response and let the OP decide for themselves that which is good. Not the place for arguing doctrine.

YouAreAwesome said:

Not your job to correct, you are derailing the thread. Let each person give their own response and let the OP decide for themselves that which is good. Not the place for arguing doctrine.

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Hmmm, are you a bit confused? He was asking me a question and this was my response you are posting to.

throughfireytrial said:

Hmmm, are you a bit confused? He was asking me a question and this was my response you are posting to.

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You are right, I am confused! I should have directed that to @joshua 1 9 I apologise. Sorry about that. You were simply defending and not attacking. My bad.

Almost every religion describes some type of fall situation but it is not described as stretching through the whole universe just mankind on our little planet. What we have is a very rare occurence, perhaps one in infinity. An administrative angel was proud and thrown down to the earth, where it proceeded to cause harm to other people in its effort to continue its quarrel with God Almighty. What God has shown is that He has no problem giving Himself for others, and our planet is now an example to all of heaven (which probably is much much larger) of just how much all creation depends on His grace, no matter the heights to which He lifts His us closer to Him. We aren't just gaining eternal life here, Jesus is in a very high position before all creation with the Father. The question is can You have a relationship with God without Jesus? Have you tried? The Father has shown me how sin seperates us from Him. The point is that God wants the most children possible from a situation that is unfair to Him and He hasn't left us as orphans but has indeed sent His spirit.

John 15:26 “When the Helper h comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, [27] 27 and i you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning."

1 John 4:10 "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. [11] Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. [12] No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. [13] By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. [14] We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. [15] Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. [16] We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. [17] By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. [18] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. [19] We love, because He first loved us. [20] If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. [21] And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

Look at how unfair the world is to the majority of humanity. This world is evil becuase we are suppose to seek out God's will from our own heart in preparation of being His angels or children. Isn't this how 70% of mankind today is poor and unjustly governed? Isn't that how the priest class of Israel were jelous of our Lord Jesus and wrongfully condemned Him to execution even though He alone is in union with God. Where the world rejects Him, we receive Him, and so the Father holds us within His blameless Life, and He Himself was Life and Light.

Just pray and meditate of Jesus' words!

Acts 13 "And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, [33] that God has fulfilled this promise to h our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘ You are My Son; today i have begotten You .’