Seriously?

[throughfiierytrial]

Let me guess this straight. God creates us, plants us in a universe that is so filled with suffering that its the norm of existence. Then he tells us that we have wronged Him, and that we need his forgiveness?

Really struggling with this....

You have omitted a very important fact about our state of existence. We were born in sin. Man, Adam and Eve, once lived in harmony with God and had God's fellowship...man was sinless. Once Adam and Eve fell, or sinned, sin entered the world and cursed all mankind and God cursed the land as well.
Sin causes strife, and more sin and sickness and death, a cursed land requires painful toil or labor. So you see, God did not plant us in this environment...we messed up the beauty of our earth with our own sin. Since we are born in sin we are prone to sin and add to these conditions.
So, yes, God wants us to repent in the name of Jesus and take hold of the hope of salvation which only He holds.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Let me guess this straight. God creates us, plants us in a universe that is so filled with suffering that its the norm of existence. Then he tells us that we have wronged Him, and that we need his forgiveness?

Really struggling with this....

I believe we are born into this world in innocence and purity. We make a choice to follow God or to follow in the rebellion against God. Love must be freely given to be love. If we did not have the freedom to choose then we would be little more than slaves.

 

[Deadworm]

BubbaJack: "Let me guess this straight. God creates us, plants us in a universe that is so filled with suffering that its the norm of existence. Then he tells us that we have wronged Him, and that we need his forgiveness? Really struggling with this....

Prolific author, Karl Barth, is the most famous theologian of the 20th century. A young Fundamentalist once asked him from a crowd: "Dr. Barth, was there is was there not really a snake in the Garden of Eden?" Barth wryly replied, "It's not important whether there really was a snake; what's important is what the snake said."

Anyway, Bubba, I think you've got this myth wrong. You're taking it as the story of the Fall, when in fact it is a symbolic story about the birth of conscience. Why do I say that? Because when Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit and hide in shame, God's reaction is "Now they have become like us, knowing the difference between good and evil." In other words, by disobeying God or, better, testing the limits, Adam and Eve become godlike and mature to the point where now they can discern evil from good. Why wouldn't God want humanity to have that discernment and be godlike? Is our godlike nature part of the intended meaning of our creation in God's image? Thus, their shame illustrates the birth of conscience, the foundation of morality.

What you also don't seem to get, Bubba, is that God takes ultimate responsibility (not blame!) for our disobedience. As The Donald would say, the snake game was rigged because God wanted us to fall for the reasons mentioned. "God imprisoned us all in disobedience that He might have mercy on us all (Romans 11:32)." You and I had no choice in our prison sentence--and we have the sinful natures to prove it! If God take ultimate responsibility in this way, He wants us to approach and serve Him on the basis of grace rather than merit.

 

[Neogaia777]

Let me guess this straight. God creates us, plants us in a universe that is so filled with suffering that its the norm of existence. Then he tells us that we have wronged Him, and that we need his forgiveness?

Really struggling with this....

I wonder if it's not so much that we wronged "him", but that we reject his wisdom in wronging "ourselves" and more importantly, our "fellow man" that he is so upset about, and that we need his help and forgiveness for... Yet, we say we don't need him for that...

He can wipe out the consequences of our error, if we'd just ask him to from a sincere, repentant heart, yet many do not ask, nor want to ask him to, (by asking him to forgive us)...

God Bless!

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I believe we are born into this world in innocence and purity. We make a choice to follow God or to follow in the rebellion against God. Love must be freely given to be love. If we did not have the freedom to choose then we would be little more than slaves.

No, we are not born in innocence and purity and if you are a Bible believing Christian you can prove this to yourself. First, Genesis provides us with the account of the first sin of Adam and Eve (Genesis 3) followed immediately by the first prophecy of a Savior/Jesus (Genesis 3:15) followed by the curses for this sin. Eve was initially named woman, but after the fall Adam named her Eve "because she would be the mother of all the living" (Genesis 3:20) Yes, that means sinful Eve is your mother too. And yes, this means exactly as is stated, look at the prophecy in chptr 3, verse 15, it reads..."And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers" (that offspring is us...Jesus is for us too as offspring of Adam and Eve.
You may do another check by looking into Romans 5:12:
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
Also made clear by a Psalm of David... Psalm 51:5:
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

 

[HenryM]

Let me guess this straight. God creates us, plants us in a universe that is so filled with suffering that its the norm of existence. Then he tells us that we have wronged Him, and that we need his forgiveness?

Really struggling with this....

And, what's your point? It doesn't seem you want to relieve your "struggle", based on your replies on this thread.

 

[Laureate]

No, we are not born in innocence and purity and if you are a Bible believing Christian you can prove this to yourself. First, Genesis provides us with the account of the first sin of Adam and Eve (Genesis 3) followed immediately by the first prophecy of a Savior/Jesus (Genesis 3:15) followed by the curses for this sin. Eve was initially named woman, but after the fall Adam named her Eve "because she would be the mother of all the living" (Genesis 3:20) Yes, that means sinful Eve is your mother too. And yes, this means exactly as is stated, look at the prophecy in chptr 3, verse 15, it reads..."And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers" (that offspring is us...Jesus is for us too as offspring of Adam and Eve.
You may do another check by looking into Romans 5:12:
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
Also made clear by a Psalm of David... Psalm 51:5:
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

What you are overlooking is that Yeshua changed the dynamics of our original sinful nature, and like leaven it is spreading and growing throughout His body, Who We are.

 

[Laureate]

Not everybody is still pressing into the Kingdom, for there are those who are already pressed in, some patiently waiting at His right hand, while others (like Avatars) are already sealed, yet jump back in the game to help speed things along, though there be many running this race, the Many still only constitute One Body.

This is a race where the Entire Body is required to Cross the finish line, not just the nose.

 

[SolomonVII]

Doesn't seem right, suffering because of something some other person did.

We are very much all connected. We are our brothers keeper. What we do does not only effect us, but effects everyone and everything that ensues.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

What you are overlooking is that Yeshua changed the dynamics of our original sinful nature, and like leaven it is spreading and growing throughout His body, Who We are.

Not over-looking that at all, that is that we are a new creature ONCE we come to faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Genesis provides us with the account of the first sin of Adam and Eve

No where does the Bible say we have to follow Adam and Eve in their sin. I hear people give a testimony that they have always been a Christian and they have always lived their life according to the example that Jesus left for us. Romans 5:14 "14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come."

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Let me guess this straight. God creates us, plants us in a universe that is so filled with suffering that its the norm of existence. Then he tells us that we have wronged Him, and that we need his forgiveness?

Really struggling with this....

correction,

God planted man in a garden and furnished him with everything he needed. man wronged God and was punished with a cursed world where suffering is the norm of existence.

after this happened, God sent His Son Jesus Christ to redeem and save those who would call on His name that they would eventually be brought back to that state in the garden of eden only much better.

 

[littlebopeek]

Let me guess this straight. God creates us, plants us in a universe that is so filled with suffering that its the norm of existence. Then he tells us that we have wronged Him, and that we need his forgiveness?

Really struggling with this....

It hurts my heart seeing this kind of misinformation clouding people's hearts

God created the Universe - yes. He created a universe that was so PERFECT, so precise, that if gravity were measured in inches and you stretched a tape measure across the ENTIRE universe and you moved earth by one INCH in any direction, it would be a lifeless rock like so many others. He created a spider to not only be able to spin a web strong enough to catch food and protect it's inhabitant, but also be BEAUTIFUL when dripped in dew. There is no REASON for things to be beautiful and yet THAT is what God created. He also created beings to appreciate that, to glorify it....humans.

What you are seeing now, in this world that is so filled with suffering it has become the norm of existence is what happens when people do NOT follow God's PERFECT and loving guidance in order to function just as perfectly in God's earth as the spider does. God is allowing this because we asked for it - Adam and Eve CHOSE to listen to a stranger instead of their loving Father and that loving father can only prove the point that His way IS the way of balance, peace and sustainability by letting us see how well we can do without it...by the looks of it, we will never be able to guide even our own steps, how can we expect to steward His creation without His help?

 

[littlebopeek]

double posted, don't know how to delete

 

[PropheticTimes]

This may help you with your questions.

Take the Leap | Grace Communion International

 

[chilehed]

Let me guess this straight. God creates us, plants us in a universe that is so filled with suffering that its the norm of existence. Then he tells us that we have wronged Him, and that we need his forgiveness?

Really struggling with this....

Suffering is not the norm of existence, it just seems like that because we've never experienced an existence without it. It's that way because of the sin of Adam, and although it's not our fault that we were born into a fallen state it is our fault when we willingly choose to do the same thing that Adam did and confirm that state in ourselves by our own volition. To sin is not human, it is to be less than human, and it is an action against God. So yes, we need his forgiveness. And to show us the depth of his forgiveness and his willingness to give it, He crawled down into the gutter with us an participated in our suffering with us, Himself suffering as much as is possible, so that we might be able to be brought out of it with Him.

You might want to read "The Great Divorce", by C. S. Lewis.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

No where does the Bible say we have to follow Adam and Eve in their sin. I hear people give a testimony that they have always been a Christian and they have always lived their life according to the example that Jesus left for us. Romans 5:14 "14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come."

I already pointed out that we can't help some of it because we were born in sin. Didn't you see those passages? Once we come to Christ He credits us with righteousness and thus imputes us with His holiness and enables us to walk a faithful life. Everyone continues to stumble in our human, sinful nature crops up, and that sinful nature will remain with us until we reach heaven where the curse of sin will be permanently removed (Revelation 22:3). This does not mean we are free to please the sinful nature any longer, but we rather call upon Christ in our weaknesses.

 

[Waggles]

Really struggling with this....

This is why it is so necessary to actually read and reread the New Testament.
Explains it all.
If you find the KJV too difficult try one of the older traditional versions that has good scholarship, rather than the trendy contemporary versions that omit way too much of the original scriptures.

Read the gospel. Read Romans and Hebrews. Read Acts and the epistles.
And then read them again. They were written to teach us, and to guide us to salvation in Christ Jesus.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

This is why it is so necessary to actually read and reread the New Testament.
Explains it all.
If you find the KJV too difficult try one of the older traditional versions that has good scholarship, rather than the trendy contemporary versions that omit way too much of the original scriptures.

Read the gospel. Read Romans and Hebrews. Read Acts and the epistles.
And then read them again. They were written to teach us, and to guide us to salvation in Christ Jesus.

Read the NIV 1984 if you can still find one second hand at a church or such.
Yes, I concur, read and re-read the Bible, also called Truth (by Jesus). If you are on your way to becoming a Christian or growing know that the Devil wants you back and will trip you up mightily if he can. Call upon the name of Jesus and read the Truth and the Truth shall set you free! John 8:32
Christianity is a constant growth process so keep reading. Jesus fought the devils temptations with Scripture.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Not anyone I know. But we didn't grow figs in Georgia.



Other people. I really hate other people.

So one is willing to accept that the wrong actions of others created a problem for you, but unwilling to apply that concept on a much larger scale to anyone but God. Why not?

Consider too that some suffering is definitely to and for our benefit. While it might not always come as much comfort going through it, going through it while taking a stand against it "being right" rather than letting it stifle or stop us from viewing the world in aspect "good", is what strengthens our resolve. That was part of the lesson from Job's suffering.