Seperating baptists and ana-baptists

Indybap

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This is interesting that in this site they are seperated.

I know church history has ana-baptists as mennonites.. open brethren.. other kinds of brethren.. but there were groups before the RCC and the Reformation that re-baptised .. Waldenses.. Paulicians.. Donatists etc.. named after the leaders in their communities.

It is not just mennonites.. brethren etc. that try to link to these groups. Independent baptists also link to these groups as they had 'baptistic' beliefs.

I know some try to create a line from modern day churches to the pre-RCC churches and say they can prove it. That is a fruitless exercise and takes away from Jesus Christ. Even though there may be a line that is unbroken that goes from those churches to now.. the records of the groups that show this line have been persecuted and cut off by the knife. They also weren't interested in recording their own history.

But anyway..

I think baptists and ana-baptists could be in the same group. Independent baptists especially have close association to churches going way way back.
 

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While I think we have a lot of similarities on the surface, there are also some differences that warrant us being put in separate categories.

Baptists, for instance, are more likely to be Calvinistic. Also, I think the Anabaptists place less emphasis on individualism than Baptists do.
 
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Indybap

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While I think we have a lot of similarities on the surface, there are also some differences that warrant us being put in separate categories.

Baptists, for instance, are more likely to be Calvinistic. Also, I think the Anabaptists place less emphasis on individualism than Baptists do.
Yes many baptists have taken on Calvinism, which is a bit of a problem. Hardshell and reformed baptists especially have. I'm unsure why they would want to, but I think it must be a historical thing of having roots in the reformation.

Independent Baptists usually don't trace themselves to the reformation and ones like my church reject Calvinism. Churches like mine re-baptise believers from unscriptural churches... Which is an ana-baptist thing.
 

FireDragon76

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Baptists come from English Puritan Separatists in the 16th century in England. Anabaptists came out of radical groups of the Swiss reformation. The culture and ethos of the churches are very different. Anabaptists do not believe in an invisible church, they have a more radical separation of the Church and state, and they are much less individualistic in their view of salvation. Traditionally, they also did not baptise by immersion, but by effusion (pouring).
 
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Indybap

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Baptists come from English Puritan Separatists in the 16th century in England. Anabaptists came out of radical groups of the Swiss reformation. The culture and ethos of the churches are very different. Anabaptists do not believe in an invisible church, they have a more radical separation of the Church and state, and they are much less individualistic in their view of salvation. Traditionally, they also did not baptise by immersion, but by effusion (pouring).

Well, this is where it gets a bit more interesting.

It depends what is meant by Anabaptists.

If it just means any group who will re-baptise believers from an unscriptural church or denomination.. then that includes independent Baptists who re-baptise...and not just Mennonites, open brethren etc..

You see my church will re-baptise like that. Not about salvation but joining a bible believing church. That makes us Anabaptist by that practice... But we are also Baptist in name and not brethren or such like.

We also reject the idea of an invisible universal church (or universal visible) church. But we are Baptist.

Baptists did not start in the 1600s. That is when they developed a confession of faith though. Baptists over history are the only body of Christians to have never symbolised with Rome. That would include many Anabaptists.
 
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FireDragon76

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Well, this is where it gets a bit more interesting.

It depends what is meant by Anabaptists.

If it just means any group who will re-baptise believers from an unscriptural church or denomination.. then that includes independent Baptists who re-baptise...and not just Mennonites, open brethren etc..

You see my church will re-baptise like that. Not about salvation but joining a bible believing church. That makes us Anabaptist by that practice... But we are also Baptist in name and not brethren or such like.

We also reject the idea of an invisible universal church (or universal visible) church. But we are Baptist.

Baptists did not start in the 1600s. That is when they developed a confession of faith though. Baptists over history are the only body of Christians to have never symbolised with Rome. That would include many Anabaptists.

Anabaptists aren't just defined by baptism of adults only, they also have theological and practical distinctives, like a synergistic soteriology, a peace testimony, and so on. They are an entirely different traditions from Baptists.
 
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Indybap

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Anabaptists aren't just defined by baptism of adults only, they also have theological and practical distinctives, like a synergistic soteriology, a peace testimony, and so on. They are an entirely different traditions from Baptists.

Okay, well I am starting to understand the difference more now. I agree there are ana-baptists that are quite different to what we think of as baptists. I just don't think it's truth to give the baptists are starting date in line with the reformers. Baptist distinctive doctrine and churches go way way back before the reformers. Most didn't have the baptist name.. but had the doctrine.

Groups that had these distinctives were nicknamed ana-baptists, such as Paulicians, Waldenses, Donatists. Later the name 'baptist' got used instead of ana-baptist. Not all these groups had the same teaching.. but were united on autonomy of the local church, adult baptism by immersion, individual liberty and salvation through Jesus Christ.

So maybe the ana-baptist name is given to too many groups. Some are more different to the baptistic teachings we know. Quakers and Amish come to mind as groups that are more different to baptist.. but I think are included in the ana-baptist name.

I get my information from My Church by J.M Moody and The Battle For Baptist History by I.K.Cross
 
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FireDragon76

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Okay, well I am starting to understand the difference more now. I agree there are ana-baptists that are quite different to what we think of as baptists. I just don't think it's truth to give the baptists are starting date in line with the reformers. Baptist distinctive doctrine and churches go way way back before the reformers. Most didn't have the baptist name.. but had the doctrine.

Groups that had these distinctives were nicknamed ana-baptists, such as Paulicians, Waldenses, Donatists.

Weldensians were not Baptists. They were started by Peter Waldo, who lived a life similar to Francis of Assisi.

Peter Waldo was a 12th century Italian merchant that sold everything he had and lived in apostolic poverty as a beggar. His followers believed in reading the Bible privately in conventicles or small groups, and they were persecuted by over-zealous clergy who feared their influence, but otherwise they didn't have distinctive beliefs or practices from other medieval Catholics. Later followers of his in the Piedmonte region of central Italy joined the Reformed churches, many went north to France as refugees. Waldensians still exist, and they baptize infants, as other Reformed Protestants do.
 
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Indybap

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Weldensians were not Baptists. They were started by Peter Waldo, who lived a life similar to Francis of Assisi.

Peter Waldo was a 12th century Italian merchant that sold everything he had and lived in apostolic poverty as a beggar. His followers believed in reading the Bible privately in conventicles or small groups, and they were persecuted by over-zealous clergy who feared their influence, but otherwise they didn't have distinctive beliefs or practices from other medieval Catholics. Later followers of his in the Piedmonte region of central Italy joined the Reformed churches, many went north to France as refugees. Waldensians still exist, and they baptize infants, as other Reformed Protestants do.

Okay.. so what historical book is this information from? If it is Catholics writing about Waldenses.. then it has to be taken with a grain of salt. If it's non-christians writing about Waldenses then it will have a no divine intervention bias before even looking at their history. The writers of My Church and another book The History of the Baptists.. knew this factor and so were careful with information about these groups that was from the persecutors themselves.
 
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FireDragon76

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Okay.. so what historical book is this information from? If it is Catholics writing about Waldenses.. then it has to be taken with a grain of salt. If it's non-christians writing about Waldenses then it will have a no divine intervention bias before even looking at their history. The writers of My Church and another book The History of the Baptists.. knew this factor and so were careful with information about these groups that was from the persecutors themselves.

I did my own research on the Waldensians years ago because some of my ancestors were Hugenots, and some genetic testing I did suggested I might have had Waldensian ancestors.
 
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Indybap

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I did my own research on the Waldensians years ago because some of my ancestors were Hugenots, and some genetic testing I did suggested I might have had Waldensian ancestors.
That's interesting. I know there are two main different takes on the Waldenses... One is that Waldo wasn't the founder of their movement but a key leader among them. That what the Waldenses had was from earlier groups that could link themselves to the apostolic time churches.

Also that they did not associate themselves initially with the Catholics. Indeed being persecuted by them.


The other take is that they started with Waldo.. and were linked with Catholics and later the reformers

This is where I think that it is the core beliefs that you look at rather than the direct trace of who they were in history. The history is written mostly by the persecutors who saw them as heretics, but in the case of the RCC were heretical themselves.

Ive probably got big holes in what I know about the Waldenses.. but who do you take the right history from?
 
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FireDragon76

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Waldensians were persecuted because they were perceived to threaten the political order, not because they taught anything particularly distinctive in terms of Christian doctrines. This happened to many groups in the Middle Ages after the reforms of Pope Gregory.

The same is largely true with John Wycliffe. Aside from being somewhat iconclastic and regarding the Pope as unscriptural, he essentially had the same beliefs as any other medieval Catholic.

Some historians don't even think the Cathars really existed in the form commonly understood (as Gnostics or Manicheans), for instance, that they were just lay preachers, and were persecuted for initially political, and not religious reasons, and the inquisitors made up legends about them based on false testimonies created under duress (detective work was unscientific during this time period, most people were more interested in upholding order than critically discerning the veracity of evidence).
 
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Indybap

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Waldensians were persecuted because they were perceived to threaten the political order, not because they taught anything particularly distinctive in terms of Christian doctrines. This happened to many groups in the Middle Ages after the reforms of Pope Gregory.

The same is largely true with John Wycliffe. Aside from being somewhat iconclastic and regarding the Pope as unscriptural, he essentially had the same beliefs as any other medieval Catholic.

Some historians don't even think the Cathars really existed in the form commonly understood (as Gnostics or Manicheans), for instance, that they were just lay preachers, and were persecuted for initially political, and not religious reasons, and the inquisitors made up legends about them based on false testimonies created under duress (detective work was unscientific during this time period, most people were more interested in upholding order than critically discerning the veracity of evidence).
Interesting. I'll relook at what I've read.

The thing I will say is Jesus promises His churches would be always existing and they would have a general distinctive set of beliefs.

Therefore there will be churches with the same central beliefs going all thru history.
 
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Indybap

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Yes



No, I don't recall him ever making that promise.
Well what I mean is .. Jesus did not promise they would have a distinctive set of beliefs.. but the NT churches were characterised by a set of biblical beliefs.

I realised I got the wording wrong after posting sorry.
 
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Well what I mean is .. Jesus did not promise they would have a distinctive set of beliefs.. but the NT churches were characterised by a set of biblical beliefs.

I realised I got the wording wrong after posting sorry.

N.T. churches didn't even have the same Bible we do today.
 
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FireDragon76

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But they were receiving letters from Paul and others that guided them in the right way

They were also reading alot of other letters that aren't in our Bibles today.
 
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EJ M

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This is interesting that in this site they are seperated.

I know church history has ana-baptists as mennonites.. open brethren.. other kinds of brethren.. but there were groups before the RCC and the Reformation that re-baptised .. Waldenses.. Paulicians.. Donatists etc.. named after the leaders in their communities.

It is not just mennonites.. brethren etc. that try to link to these groups. Independent baptists also link to these groups as they had 'baptistic' beliefs.

I know some try to create a line from modern day churches to the pre-RCC churches and say they can prove it. That is a fruitless exercise and takes away from Jesus Christ. Even though there may be a line that is unbroken that goes from those churches to now.. the records of the groups that show this line have been persecuted and cut off by the knife. They also weren't interested in recording their own history.

But anyway..

I think baptists and ana-baptists could be in the same group. Independent baptists especially have close association to churches going way way back.

Hosius on the Anabaptists

By Stephen M. duBarry, 2009
Baptists historians have often cited the hostile testimony of Stanislaus Hosius concerning the Anabaptists. Hosius was a Polish Roman Catholic who became prince-bishop of Warmia in 1551, rose to cardinal in 1561, and was one of five papal legates who presided over the third period of the Council of Trent from 1561 to 1563.1His distinguished rank and illustrious reputation among Catholics of the Reformation period give his remarks on the Anabaptists, though hostile, particular weight in the consideration of Baptist history.
A typical quote in relation to the history of the Baptists is found in a letter to the editor published in the Baptist Magazine in 1826:
It is well known that these good people (the foreign Baptists) were formerly most severely and barbarously persecuted; and it may not perhaps be unacceptable to many of your readers, to see a few instances of their sufferings, which I have selected from "Brandt's History of the Reformation;" and which I shall preface in the words of Cardinal Hosius, one of the Pope's Presidents at the Council of Trent, who said thus of them: "If the truth of religion were to be judged of, by the readiness and chearfulness which a man of any sect shows in suffering, then the opinion and persuasion of no sect can be truer or surer than that of the Anabaptists; since there have been none for these twelve hundred years past, that have been more grievously punished, or that have more cheerfully and steadfastly undergone, and even offered themselves to the most cruel sorts of punishments, than these people." 2
Abraham Booth cites Hosius' opinion that the Waldenses were Anabaptists in his 1829 book Pedobaptism Examined:
I will here add the following testimony from cardinal Hosius, who was president of the Council of Trent. "The Anabaptists are a pernicious sect; of which kind the Waldensian Brethren seem also to have been. Concerning whom it appears, that not very long ago they rebaptized persons; though some of them lately, as they testify in their apology, have ceased to repeat baptism. Certain it is, however, that in many things they agree with the Anabaptists. . . . Nor is this heresy a modern thing; for it existed in the time of Austin."3
Another passage is given by Edward Bean Underhill in his Struggles and Triumphs of Religious Liberty, first published in 1851:
Let a catholic reply, the president of the famous council of Trent. "If you behold their cheerfulness in suffering persecutions, the anabaptists run before all their heretics. If you will have regard to the number, it is like that in multitude they would swarm above all others, if they were not grievously plagued and cut off with the knife of persecution. If you have an eye to the outward appearance of godliness, both the Lutherans and Zuinglians must needs grant that they far pass them.
"If you will be moved by the boasting of the word of God, these be no less bold than Calvin to preach, and their doctrine must stand aloft above all the glory of the world, must stand invincible above all power, because it is not their word, but the word of the living God. Neither do they cry with less boldness than Luther, that with their doctrine, which is the word of God, they shall judge the angels. And surely, how many soever have written against this heresy, whether they were catholics or heretics [reformers], they were able to overthrow it, not so much by the testimony of the scriptures, as by the authority of the church."4
These quotations are all taken from Hosius' Latin work "Verae, christianae catholicaeque doctrinae solida propugnatio," first published in Cologne in 1558.5 The first section of the book, entitled "De origine haeresium nostri temporis" ("The beginning of heresies in our time"), features his discourse on the Anabaptists. An English translation by Richard Shacklock of "De origine haeresium nostri temporis" was published in 1565 under the title "The Hatchet of Heresies."6 While some of the quotes given by Baptist authors appear to derive from original translations of Hosius' Latin, many are taken from Shacklock's translation. The following appendix gives the full text of Hosius' discussion of the Anabaptists given in "The Hatchet of Heresies."

Appendix: Text of Hosius on the Anabaptists
The following are the two main passages in which Stanislaus Hosius discusses the Anabaptists in "De origine haeresium nostri temporis," the first section of his 1558 book "Verae, christianae catholicaeque doctrinae solida propugnatio." The text is taken from Richard Shacklock's 1565 translation entitled "The Hatchet of Heresies." Archaic spellings have been modernized.
(Front Page of The Hatchet of Heresies)

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Baptists were founded by John Smyth who was a former Anglican cleric who re-baptized himself because he didn't believe in infant Baptism. They are influenced by Calvinist theology. Anabaptists include Mennonites, Amish, Hutterites etc. They separated from the Roman Catholic Church. The Amish separated from the Mennonites etc.
 
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