Sensitive Topic for Reformed Thinkers

[Jon_]

I was just in the shower, praying, and meditating on how fortunate I am that the Holy Spirit has enabled me to receive the truth of the Scriptures. That lead me to begin praying for those that had yet to see the truth, joy, peace, and encouragement of Reformed Theology. One of the things I prayed was that the Holy Spirit would show those that did not know that it is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit alone that renews our hearts in preparation to receive the grace of Christ. As I was praying, my mind started to wander (does this happen to anyone else?), and I began to consider why Arminians (etc.) believed the way they believe. I mean, consider the transaction of salvation. Superfically, it looks like the best insurance policy ever. All you have to do is say, "I accept Jesus Christ, the Son of God, to be my personal savior," and you have eternal life. You'd think that everyone would get in on it, "just to be sure." Of course, as a Reformed thinker, I know that they cannot, and will not--only those appointed by God will; however, how does the Arminian explain this?

One of the answers that I had heard so often growing up in the Nazarene church popped into my head. As soon as I tought it, I was stunned. It is: "They do not accept Christ because Satan deceives them."

Wow. Taken in context I now understand how horribly flawed and deceived this statement is. It is nigh blasphemous! And not just blasphemous, near unforgivably blasphemous. It is Jesus that reveals the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit unto the Pharisees. They attributed Jesus's miracle to Satan. How close in spirit is attributing the refusal of the fallen to accept Christ to Satan, instead of the sovereign will of God?

Now, don't mistake what I am saying. I am in no way accusing anyone that believes this of committing blasphemy. All I am pointing out is the correlating deception behind both statements (the Pharisees' blasphemy and the attributing of the unsaved state of non-believers to Satan's deception). Actually, I am quite sure that Satan is in fact deceiving those who are being brought close to a point of salvation, but I also believe that this works for the glory of God. Instead of the impetus for salvation being placed upon the depraved, it is upon the Holy Spirit. That is the wonderous promise of salvation. Knowing that the appointed shall receive it; and receive it eternally.

Anyway, I just thought I would share that and tender discussion, if possible.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

I have had similar thoughts, especially growing up with Arminian teaching. One thing that gets me is the songs I would sing in church. What was so amazing about grace, anyway? How could I know that I had finally earned my salvation? The merit system was alive and well, and it drank deeply at my spirit.

I believed the version of the gospel that was presented to me and told others in the church that Jesus Christ is Lord, so didn't that mean I had my RSVP stamped? Why was there no peace? Why didn't anything within me change? My body was a temple to myself and Jesus was just homeowner's insurance in case I didn't quite strive enough to earn my salvation.

This was the accumulation of the teaching I had growing up and the effect it had on me. Can others who are trying to earn their passage into Heaven be any different? Where do they base their hope? On their own decision to let God save them? I never understood that logic, but then I used to make lots of dumb decisions and couldn't trust myself to do the right thing about the little things. Why should I trust myself in the biggest thing of all?

This is why I present the simple truth to others now. I want the world to realize that they no longer have to shoulder their own burdens to impress God. This doctrine goes against the pride of man, though. Once a person understands and realizes their own depravity there can only be either an embracing of true grace or despair. I experienced despair before I realized grace and am eternally grateful for the Lord for burning through my own self-righteousness to realize this simple doctrine.

About the mind wandering bit... dude, you need help! Just kidding. I do the same thing, realize it, then go back to what I was praying about before. It is a symptom of a depraved mind that we will struggle with until glorification. It is one of many reasons why the Holy Spirit makes our prayers presentable for the Father and one of many reasons Jesus presents Himself to the Father for us. Even in grace, we rely on Christ for every step of our walk. The glory can be given to no other.

Soli Deo Gloria

 

[Jon_]

I have had similar thoughts, especially growing up with Arminian teaching. One thing that gets me is the songs I would sing in church. What was so amazing about grace, anyway? How could I know that I had finally earned my salvation? The merit system was alive and well, and it drank deeply at my spirit.

I believed the version of the gospel that was presented to me and told others in the church that Jesus Christ is Lord, so didn't that mean I had my RSVP stamped? Why was there no peace? Why didn't anything within me change? My body was a temple to myself and Jesus was just homeowner's insurance in case I didn't quite strive enough to earn my salvation.

This was the accumulation of the teaching I had growing up and the effect it had on me. Can others who are trying to earn their passage into Heaven be any different? Where do they base their hope? On their own decision to let God save them? I never understood that logic, but then I used to make lots of dumb decisions and couldn't trust myself to do the right thing about the little things. Why should I trust myself in the biggest thing of all?

This is why I present the simple truth to others now. I want the world to realize that they no longer have to shoulder their own burdens to impress God. This doctrine goes against the pride of man, though. Once a person understands and realizes their own depravity there can only be either an embracing of true grace or despair. I experienced despair before I realized grace and am eternally grateful for the Lord for burning through my own self-righteousness to realize this simple doctrine.

About the mind wandering bit... dude, you need help! Just kidding. I do the same thing, realize it, then go back to what I was praying about before. It is a symptom of a depraved mind that we will struggle with until glorification. It is one of many reasons why the Holy Spirit makes our prayers presentable for the Father and one of many reasons Jesus presents Himself to the Father for us. Even in grace, we rely on Christ for every step of our walk. The glory can be given to no other.

Soli Deo Gloria

Wow. Nicely put, brother. You just completely echoed my sentiments on the subject.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

You're welcome! If I could figure out a way to gently and nicely post hymn lyrics that an Arminian couldn't sing without cringing at their lapse in doctrine, I would. Perhaps I'll do this on my website when I'm feeling feisty. Amazing Grace was mentioned earlier. Others that spring to mind include "How Great Thou Art" and "Heaven Came Down."

By the way, for the sake of feistiness, I will give you the lyrics of a song called "Arminian Grace"

Arminian grace! How strange the sound
Salvation hinged on ME
I once was lost then turned around
Was blind then chose to see

What “grace” is it that calls for choice
Out of some good within?
The part that willed to heed God’s voice
Proved stronger than my sin

Through many ardent gospel pleas
I sat with heart of stone
But then some hidden good in me
Propelled me toward my home

When we’ve been there ten thousand years
Because of what we’ve done
We’ve no less days to sing our praise
Than when we first begun

- Dennis Walter Cochran

 

[reformedfan]

wow, excellent point. Good thing the truth is irrespective of people's opinion, and if they are saved they haven't committed blasphemy of the Spirit, cuz yeah, that's skirtin' it pretty close.

 

[James1979]

Do you also believe that even though God brings this truth to someone in their life, they still can end up not being saved.

 

[Imblessed]

You're welcome! If I could figure out a way to gently and nicely post hymn lyrics that an Arminian couldn't sing without cringing at their lapse in doctrine, I would. Perhaps I'll do this on my website when I'm feeling feisty. Amazing Grace was mentioned earlier. Others that spring to mind include "How Great Thou Art" and "Heaven Came Down."

By the way, for the sake of feistiness, I will give you the lyrics of a song called "Arminian Grace"

Arminian grace! How strange the sound
Salvation hinged on ME
I once was lost then turned around
Was blind then chose to see

What “grace” is it that calls for choice
Out of some good within?
The part that willed to heed God’s voice
Proved stronger than my sin

Through many ardent gospel pleas
I sat with heart of stone
But then some hidden good in me
Propelled me toward my home

When we’ve been there ten thousand years
Because of what we’ve done
We’ve no less days to sing our praise
Than when we first begun

- Dennis Walter Cochran

Is that a real song?? How odd.

When I was reading your earlier post Coffee, I got to thinking about the song Amazing Grace, and how before I became reformed, I couldn't figure out the part "Twas Grace that taught my heart to fear, and Grace my fears relieved". It wasn't until after I was reformed that it became clear--understanding Total Depravity is humbling and fear-inducing, but when you finally understand Grace, it's the most amazing thing in the world.

We sung "how Great thou Art" in church 2 weeks ago, and wow! Again, I'd never understood those words before.

One of the things I noticed about christian songs is that since I've become reformed, there are songs on the christian radio station that make me cringe, they are so wrong. It's sort of odd that before, I hadn't noticed them being wrong, and now I have a hard time even listening to them!

By the way, I'll look forward to you posting some of those lyrics...it would be fun! blush: I shouldn't say that...)

 

[Jon_]

Do you also believe that even though God brings this truth to someone in their life, they still can end up not being saved.

No. It is my understanding that wisdom of this nature is preserved for those that have received the Spirit. That is to say, you can't or won't understand this unless you've been renewed by the Holy Spirit and accepted Christ as your personal savior. After all, since the natural precursor to this wisdom is faith, and faith is a fruit of the Spirit, how can you bear the fruit without the Spirit?

 

[James1979]

Jon_

What do you do with these scripture?

Luke 12:47-48
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Also I see that you wrote about accepting Christ as your personal Savior? I disagree with that because that is not biblicial at all. How can a simple confessional of faith or a sinner's prayer be justified in the eyes of God in order for God to impute righteousness to that indiviual? We have to remember in Romans 3 it says that we do nothing good in God's eyes. We are filthy rags and are unrighteous in God's eyes.

 

[Jon_]

Jon_

What do you do with these scripture?

Luke 12:47-48
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Also I see that you wrote about accepting Christ as your personal Savior? I disagree with that because that is not biblicial at all. How can a simple confessional of faith or a sinner's prayer be justified in the eyes of God in order for God to impute righteousness to that indiviual? We have to remember in Romans 3 it says that we do nothing good in God's eyes. We are filthy rags and are unrighteous in God's eyes.

Hi again, James. I don't understand. What is the point you are trying to make? I honestly can't make sense of your post at all. I'm sorry, but could you please clarify your position? Thanks.

 

[James1979]

What I'm trying to say is that no matter how much knowledge of the bible you know, even if it's calvinism which do hold the true gospel as I don't call myself calvinism or any other type of name, you still can be unsaved that's what I'm saying. That's all.

 

[Jon_]

What I'm trying to say is that no matter how much knowledge of the bible you know, even if it's calvinism which do hold the true gospel as I don't call myself calvinism or any other type of name, you still can be unsaved that's what I'm saying. That's all.

Oh, I think I understand now. Are you saying that one could be a Calvinist, but yet be unregenerate? If so, I disagree with you respectfully, but completely.

 

[James1979]

Why do you disagree? So is all reformed churches full of wheat and there isn't one single tare amongst them? You do know that God said they the wheat and tares shall grow together until the harvest. I'm not trying to pick an argument but just wondering why you think that if you're a calvinist, then you're considered saved automatically. That's a similiar language as with the Catholic Church doctrine, actually majority of the churches are like that.

 

[frumanchu]

Oh, I think I understand now. Are you saying that one could be a Calvinist, but yet be unregenerate? If so, I disagree with you respectfully, but completely.

Jon, I must respectfully disagree with you here. It is not our doctrine that saves. Satan himself could easily best either of us on a systematic theology exam. It is FAITH that saves. Striving to be truthful and correct in doctrine is certainly important, and the truth is absolute, but we are saved by faith alone.

Just as not all true Christians are Calvinists, so not all Calvinists are true Christians.

Of course, I believe that all true Christians will be Calvinists in Glory, but that's another matter

 

[Jon_]

Essentially, my position is this. The Calvinist doctrine is a doctrine of divine wisdom revealed in Scripture. It is the true doctrine of the Holy Word. I further contend that one needs a special enabling by the Holy Spirit to fully receive and appreciate the doctrine. There are a few reasons why. A strong argument for it lies in Total Depravity.

A Calvinist believes that we are born fallen and wholly apart from God, completely incapable of righteousness. The Calvinist further knows that righteousness is a product of faith, and that it is faith alone which saves us. Therefore, the Calvinist would understand that one needs faith to be righteous (justified is a better word here).

Additionally, the level of wisdom inherent in Reformed Theology, I believe, exceeds the capacity for acceptance by the unregenerate mind. Reformed Theology demands many assumptions (understandings) of the believer's faith. We must understand that we are enemies of God, wholly unable to do good. We must understand that we must have faith in Jesus Christ to be saved. We must understand that we are so depraved that only God can save us. We must understand that our will is not sovereign, no, far from it (something most Christians can't even do). We must understand that God has predestined the elect to salvation and passed over the reprobate, thereby consigning them to hellfire (most would cry "foul!"). We must understand that "once saved, always saved."

Of course, I could be wrong. And since we can never know the state of other's souls, it seems that we may never truly know the answer, but I am confident that Reformed Theology is somewhat of a guarded tome of wisdom, revealed only to believers. It's always been my view that we, as Calvinists, are quite special. God has chosen us, few of the many (few saved of the unsaved) who are few of the many (Calvinists versus all others) for a special purpose. Perhaps I over emphasize how "special" we are, but make no mistake that we have purposely been revealed this wisdom where others have not received it. I know that I daily thank the Lord for selecting me to receive the full truth of His Word. It's been the most wonderful blessing I've received since the Holy Spirit regenerated my heart and enabled me to receive Christ.

 

[James1979]

I agree completely with you with that doctrine but there is one problem. You said that we have to have faith in Jesus in order to be saved. That is considered a work. There is no requirement on our part to become saved at all. If you look at Galatians 2:16

KJV Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we believed in Jesus Christ, and not by the works of the law for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

NKJV knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

If you look at the two, one is saying that we are justified by Christ faithfulness of not breaking one law at all which is the KJV. NKJV says that we are justified by our faith in Christ which is saying that we that are spiritually dead somehow has faith(trust, believe) in God which is impossible because God says faith without works is dead. Also I just noticed that it shows that we have removed Christ's work and put our work in there in the NKJV which is horrible, neglecting our Savior's work. So therefore there is no requirement on our part to be justified because we are already dead by nature.

NKJV and the other versions that came out later have changed the meaning of this verse. I stick with the KJV.

 

[Jon_]

I agree completely with you with that doctrine but there is one problem. You said that we have to have faith in Jesus in order to be saved. That is considered a work. There is no requirement on our part to become saved at all. If you look at Galatians 2:16

KJV Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we believed in Jesus Christ, and not by the works of the law for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

NKJV knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

If you look at the two, one is saying that we are justified by Christ faithfulness of not breaking one law at all which is the KJV. NKJV says that we are justified by our faith in Christ which is saying that we that are spiritually dead somehow has faith(trust, believe) in God which is impossible because God says faith without works is dead. Also I just noticed that it shows that we have removed Christ's work and put our work in there in the NKJV which is horrible, neglecting our Savior's work. So therefore there is no requirement on our part to be justified because we are already dead by nature.

NKJV and the other versions that came out later have changed the meaning of this verse. I stick with the KJV.

Hmm, I think you might be misunderstanding me. From what you've told me so far, it looks like we're pretty much right on the same page, theologically, it just looks like I'm not communicating it very well. Faith is, of course, necessary for salvation. The Bible is quite clear on that. It's the foundation for the doctrine of Sola Fide. I'm not sure what your point of contention is. If you are asserting that our faith is not natural to us, then I agree totally. Faith is a product of the Holy Spirit within us. Only after we have been regenerated by Him are we able to have faith in Jesus Christ. If that is your contention, then we're of one mind.

That's what you're getting at, right?

 

[James1979]

Now we are in one accord

 

[larryjf]

"They do not accept Christ because Satan deceives them."

That is not in contradiction to the sovereignty of God.

The bible tells us that Satan does deceive.
Rev 20:2-3
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

It also implies that the elect will not be deceived.
Mat 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

So Satan does deceive, but only under God's sovereign authority.