Sensing and seeing the spiritual realm

[Alisa Bea Audiobooks]

Hi everyone,
I'll try to be as concise as possible here. I consider myself to be persuaded by logic, evidence, research, etc. I am born-again, saved around 6 months ago despite my walk seeking God spanning several years prior. (Since being saved I know study a Ba of Theology at uni).

Since around the age of five I've been consciously aware of 'feelings' of presences around me, or lingering in certain places when I enter an area. It was with prayer one day through an almost out of body experience, God revealed to me the two ungodly spiritual entities standing in front of me at the time. From then I knew the feelings of presences throughout my history was confirmed, and that God answers prayers.

At the time I sought help, concerned it was possibly schizophrenia or psychosis, for which doctors prescribed pills my way. Acting reasonably, I agreed to a course of medication, yet later realised through my experiences, research and prayer that it is not a disorder, but the gift of spiritual discernment; an ability to sense, locate, and in most cases, "see" into the spiritual realm. Non-believers stick with me here.

Upon speaking with my father and grandmother (dad's mum), they revealed to me that my grandmother has also had this gift all her life. Myself, my dad and my grandmother also have the gift of speaking in tongues, so these seem to be generational.
My dad then shared a story with me of when I was about four years old, we were outside of our newly-built house and I said, "Dad, who is that man up on the roof?" Dad couldn't see anything and asked me about it. I told him "That man up there, he doesn't look like a nice man.." Dad concluded I was seeing something he couldn't, and a believer himself, realised I could see into the spiritual realm. I didn't remember this moment until tonight in prayer it was revealed to me. I can almost remember what he looked like, and I remember the conversation.

The presences throughout my life have been constant. Some with me most of the time, some only found in certain areas as if I unknowingly walk into their domain. Some appear to me in new places but they are somehow linked to, and present to me. When moving through certain rooms or areas, I can feel the shift that I have left one domain (eg a bedroom) with possibly two spirits, and entered a new domain (eg kitchen) with just one, different spirit. They embody different demeanours, different intentions, different 'physical' appearances. I can even tell if one is from a higher echelon.. or if one is possibly present in more than one domain (with other people) at the same time.

At certain points, I "see" out of the corner of my eye, a brief white cloud-like ribbon appears and disappears, or the room feels to get lighter even though it doesn't actually, and it's like the atmosphere is suddenly cleansed, or there is a release of negative spiritual focus on me. It feels as if some kind of protective angel or pure spirit comes around and warns them off. I can then feel their return. It's like they eventually descend again from somewhere else.

It has become so second nature to me now that I can "see" them. I say that in inverted commas as I can't actually see them, but I can feel or sense what they look like, or what they are doing. I can also discern their overall demeanour or intentions. I described it to my dad like this; "Imagine there's a man in a suit and hat standing over at the door, watching you intently. He's not there, but without even glancing at the door, you can mentally "see" him and discern his demeanour. I don't see men in suits, I see things that are not of this world. It is a constant daily experience for me, and has been since (at least) the age of four.

I post this because I'm hoping someone here can fully understand what I've described, through either personal experience, or knowledge of others talking about it. I know I'm not the only one. Since realising all of this, it's like realising I can speak elvish but everyone around me are gnomes. I know to non-believers it sounds crazy.. I know. But unless you've experienced it I guess it would be hard to understand.

Thanks for reading through this. Blessings.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I have heard of this type of gifting before.It does not happen so much in these modern times because most babies are born in hospitals. But, in times past, babies were born at home, and even some born in hospitals were born "in the caul" . That is, born without the water breaking. I have witnessed this a couple of times. It is said babies born like this, with the amniotic sack(veil) over their face have the ability to see spirits. Of course, today, not many people believe this and it is relegated to either superstition or mental illness. But old time doctors and midwives knew the procedure for removing the "caul" "veil" from the baby's face, and they even instructed the parents on how to care for the child.

No you are not "crazy" my dear. And no, you are not alone. But you are a very rare breed indeed. There are not many like you because of the practice of artificially breaking the water before babies are born. This is knowledge that has not been passed down as it should have been.

 

[Alisa Bea Audiobooks]

How interesting! I'll research what you've mentioned. I appreciate this, thank you.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Hi everyone,
I'll try to be as concise as possible here. I consider myself to be persuaded by logic, evidence, research, etc. I am born-again, saved around 6 months ago despite my walk seeking God spanning several years prior.

...

Hi Alisa, I can offer some helpful information. I have also had lifelong miracles, some very unusual abilities, and the Lord has led me in logic and research in these areas and areas which have helped me understand. I work my day job in an extremely intellectually demanding field (computer security), and have a very accomplished resume there.

In no particular order, but as the Lord showed so well, with the ten commandments, we do tend to process information very well in list formats, and it helps me organize my thoughts:

1. I do believe there is some scriptural justification to family spiritual lineage, in a remark Paul stated about the children being saved for the sake of the parents. There does seem to be historical evidence this is not always true, but the Lord had pointed that verse out to me. I have also relied on the Lord for this, as His calling has required me to put first His Kingdom. So, from that viewpoint, the Lord provides. The logic of this blessing is obvious. Noteworthy, what I gave up, as Jesus promised, God provided back in abundance. (I actually have been able to spend enormous time with my children, ultimately.)

2. In general, though, I do believe it is very important to have the view that we are family with all true believers. Which is a very true statement. The Body of Christ is remarkable in its' explicit description, some two thousand years ago, and so much more remarkable in everyday reality. We are literally connected to true believers by Spirit.

So, it is we find true family everywhere, and potentially anywhere. And in this way, as well as ultimately other ways, we do find ourselves with 'many spouses, children, parents, siblings', as Jesus promised.

Ultimately, however, it is Jesus, God, who connects us all, and through whom we find familiarity.

These things said, the Lord has used my own family in many profound ways as messengers of the Lord to me, now, and over the years. Much of the work the Lord provides to me, in fact, tends to come from those closest to me, via my everyday world sphere. (Coworkers, family, and the like.)

3. I have had multiple Christians point out to me that they do not look at prophecy to be fulfilled first, but live their lives, and where prophecy is fulfilled, they know the Lord will tell them. This is the best way. Likewise, I have found that it is best to have an open mind and open heart, and then look at Scripture to ensure everything is scriptural. I speak of this in terms of the many spiritual miracles that can occur in a believer's life.

That is do not disbelieve something you have seen with your own eyes, or been told about by someone you trust, merely because you have not heard of it before in Scripture. Do not, that is, be like those who disbelieved Christ, saying, "This is not what elders say the Scripture say". As they were wrong, and we can be wrong today.

These things did not happen for those who did not believe, they happened with an eye for those who would believe. Just as everything else in prophecy happened for us.

This is a very common error. I have seen people disbelieve me on matters merely because it is not what they want to believe, and the excuse is that they have a different reading of Scripture already. Likewise, I have experienced matters which I did not want to believe, and felt Scripture did not confirm as I had known it then. But, I had to go back and read, and realize, I did not understand.

Many matters, ultimately, has the Lord literally led me back to Scripture as well as even other matters, to aid my understanding. (For instance, some matters of heaven, I had to research linguisitics and psychology to understand. Not a common problem, yet, anyway, but a serious one, as the distance between Heaven and earth is far, and there are significant language issues. Which, I was taught, language most certainly does involve social biases, culture, and often requires metaphorical frameworks that can, at times, be found even in the most strange of places.)

3. Tied in with 2, it is very important to remember to trust the Lord and look to the Lord, first, and foremost for answers. This will tie in with four.

John said it well, 'you do not need teachers, as you have the Spirit, who will lead you in all truth'.

Very spiritual proverbial angels from Heaven have well pointed out to me, 'people know when God speaks to them'. But, we may consciously be ignorant, or not noticing, even while "unconsciously", recalling, and knowing. Seek to have the Lord's counsel repeated to you.

Note that not unlike the most vivid of memories, the Spirit will and does bring back to mind matters the Spirit has told you, in your heart, via the famous "whisper".

A small, "listen to this", or "look at that", or "that is not a coincidence is it"? Is often very powerful from the Lord.

4. As forewarned, this ties in with 3 and 4, and I also use a verse from the same book of John. Well, how can you be sure you even have the Spirit, so you can dare trust the Lord as your guide above and beyond any traditional and "authoritative" church teachers? 'If the word abides in you, then the Spirit abides in you', John reminds us.

The words of Christ should and will be everyday brought to mind and taught to you, in your heart, by the Spirit of the Lord. 'In this way', we know we are saved.

Again, it is the way of the world, not the Kingdom, to be so obsessed about "deeds". The deeds that come from the fruit of the Spirit are often very strange. Consider the deeds of Jesus and the prophets. People go about much about "what must I do for the Lord". Let us accent that "for" the Lord.

Jesus said what we must do is to believe in Him, the One God sent.

And Jesus and John reiterated, that if you keep the words of Jesus, then you keep Jesus.

When you are tested, when your salvation starts to be unsure, you always turn to the Spirit bringing the Words of Christ to your heart.

Make no mistake, very many literally today say "Jesus, Jesus" in front of all, making much a show of their religion. Yet, look for them living the words and life of Jesus. Look for them speaking and teaching the words of Jesus.

Over the decades I have often been astonished at how many of the teachings of the Lord remain obscure, and how often his most seemingly zealous followers can seem to be so different front Christ as He taught us in both word and deed. As are many who observe them. As even our critics sometimes common on. (When they are not most busy using these false Christians as "strawmen", to slander His Most Holy Name.)

(Showing there even they know they are not following Christ, and are the worst examples they can find. So they are hypocrites when they use them to "prove" their criticism, and cite them as more authoritative then Christ Himself.)

5. Heaven is strange. One passage of the works of Jesus in the Prophets speaks of the Lord 'performing alien work'. Many glimpses of Heaven we get in Scripture speak of a vast space of difference, of strangeness, to what we, of earth know.

It remains so today. 'The Lord's ways are higher then humankind's ways, as the Heavens are higher then the earth'.

Yet, one day, 'we will have a new, pure language', and 'the knowledge of the Lord will fill the earth, as the waters fill the oceans'.

But, as for that day of the Immortal, Eternal Kingdom being revealed, and triumphing over all the nations on earth, we are warned, 'those who fail to live to 100 even will be considered as mere infants, accursed by God'. So, there will be a division, between the saved and the damned. And those left out, will find themselves as the rejected virgins, banging on the door. And the goats, left in the dark.

6. 'Seek and you will find'. Hunger for more truth, more evidence. What is evidence, but revelations of truth?

Clarify. Let the mysteries drive you, if that is so. Do not hesitate to go over and over again, the proofs. Remember as Jesus reminded the apostles, when he rose from the dead, speaking of His ministry and telling them of Scripture that confirms it? They had that flame in their heart again.

Fire that flame. Seek the fire in the heart.

Do not grow cold and let your flame go out.

Do not let those who scoff and mock and those who simply disbelieve overtake you and steal your crown. 'Greater things then these', Jesus promised us.

Heaven is like the air we breathe, the friends we know, the world above the sea, where birds sing. But, the world we walk in so often, is like going deep in the sea, where all of that is gone and alien. It seeks to drown you and keep you, and make you forget.

Heaven is within, and among us. Jesus reminded us. It is today noted the word can mean "among" "or" "within". It clearly means both, for all those who know.

This does mean, that our lives among the miraculous Kingdom, the Kingdom not of this finite world, is one hidden from view. So, too, are the miracles. They can not hear, they can not see. Yet, why do we speak? Because we have evidence we believe. We speak because we believe.

7. Finally, tied in with six... I have had stunning, world destroying, jaw dropping witness of the truth and power and glory of the Kingdom. Things I can not write of or speak of. Great, terrible, deadfully massive matters, that I keep in my heart. Why? Why can I not write nor speak of? Because people won't believe even if they hear of them.

Do not get me wrong. Pseudo-anonymously, I write of them, online, over the years. It is critical therapy for me, because there is a cost to keeping secrets. Still, normally, with a strength by Spirit and by experience, I only write of the smaller things. Bits and pieces. And I certainly see how these matters have increased my zeal, so I can write of the matters of milk, and the mundane, and the more normal matters.

The world for me is a deep pain, but the Lord gives me grace. Because of the incomparable mundanity of it, and the temporary of it.

As a young man, I did make the severe mistake of being open with people of the world, and paid for it. I was diagnosed harshly, and locked up for some time.

In years since, I received far more powerful revelations then I had then, and have also strained towards silence on these matters. So often, when I do open my mouth, out of the sheer power - as Jeremiah says "fire in the bones" - I have found people become transformed as if with fangs and claws, and show themselves as if animals towards me. As Jesus warned, about throwing our pearls to swine. In these matters, it is important.

I say these things, partly, to goad you on. Look for more. It happens, out there, out here. It does not make the news. The world goes about on their news, their "big news", on matters which are inspeakably trifling in comparison. One might as well be from the distant future, observing an archaic, 'in the dark' society. Unable to help or say much, though knowing, one day, the whole world will know the glory of God. Even if, many will only then discover, they are in a darkness already so thick, they can not begin yet to comprehend.

There are those who would urge you to not look for more from God. To look to the ground, the earth, and the empty words of mere mortals. Folks are are either infants, or mistaken that they even have the Spirit. Of traditional - ancient - misunderstandings. Repeated from one generation to the next. Not the words of Scripture, as they claim. But dirty water, mixed, unclear, stamped on top of Scripture. Bad misunderstandings. Alphabet soup, that has made it worse then meaningless.

Further, God is not hidden at some special church building you must go to. As Moses warned. But, 'on your lips, in your heart'.

Still, might these words help you hear more. As our hearts can be fallible, and the Spirit can point out truths too complex for us to hear first from inside. We provide new bits and pieces of the future language to come, in these small disclosures. Might they help you, and perhaps, another, as well.

 

[Francis Drake]

Just as we are born with natural attributes, such as art sports or music, we may also be born with spiritual attributes.

Nurture them constantly surrendering them to the Lord and asking for his wisdom in growing in their use.

Incidentally, my wife (in a non Christian family) when she was 3 years old, experienced many dreams and visions. She was taken up into heaven and saw the city of God, she saw and spoke to Jesus and did many things there.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I just have a question about "sensing" spiritual things. I spent the first 12 years of my Christian life in Pentecostal and Charismatic environments, and I heard a lot about people "sensing: this or "sensing" that. I sought the Lord about that, because when the Lord revealed Himself to me, I asked Him about these things and He told me that I didn't need them because I had the written Word of God and I was to live by faith in what was in it.

When God started speaking to me, after I sought Him in the middle of a golf course in the dead of night under the stars and introduced myself to Him because no one had ever been able to do so, even though they introduced me to all the religious activities in the Pentecostal church, it was if He was speaking deep within me. I asked Him about that and He said that He spoke to my spirit and my mind interpreted it.

I have found that when God speaks to me, somehow I know it, either it has been a verse of scripture jumping out at me, or a definite thought that I had not thought a second ago, or in the pages of a book that I just picked up at random, or the advice of a good Christian friend.

But when I looked at how psychics performed, I found many similarities between them and those in my church who said that they "sensed" things in the Spirit. That concerned me, because it seemed that there was no difference between how psychics sensed things and some of these church people did. It seemed to me that these church people were putting more faith in what they were "sensing" than what was actually written in the Bible. In fact, many of the things "sensed" were contradicting the teaching of the Scripture. This has led me to believe that a lot of this "sensing" is not of faith and whatever is not of faith cannot please God and quite possibly does not come from Him.

The scripture tells us to test every spirit to see whether it is from God or not, and not to believe very spirit because many false prophets have gone out into the world. I think that people who are depending on some gift of spiritual "sensing" are opening themselves wide to deception. Every pseudo-christian cult has started off with someone having a "sense" or personal "revelation" of teaching that has formed the basis of that cult. I think that if people are looking for some kind a sensory experience, they may receive it but it might not be from God.

The Bible says that that which is not of faith is sin. Faith is a total dependence on God's written Word. The scripture says that the just shall live by faith. It is not faith in "sensing", nor is it faith in faith, but it is faith in God's promises and principles clearly written in the Bible. Some things are written for us and other things are written to us. Some things are for our education about the ways of God, and others are direct instructions for us to follow.

Hebrews 1 says that in times past God spoke through His holy prophets but in these last days He has spoken through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore the risen Jesus is the foundation for our faith and the performance of our work for Him. Having a "spiritual sense gift" is New Age thinking and it is centred around the self improvement of the person. and that it humanism and not true spirituality as described in the Bible.

I think that we need to be very careful when encountering phenomena that causes some to think they have an inborn spiritual sense to have experiences and visions that make others think that the person is someone special and living in a realm above the common herd. The Scripture does not support that at all. The scripture says that we have the treasure of the Holy Spirit in earthen vessels. It is not us who are important, but it is the Christ in us that has moral value to God and to those around us.

 

[Francis Drake]

I just have a question about "sensing" spiritual things. I spent the first 12 years of my Christian life in Pentecostal and Charismatic environments, and I heard a lot about people "sensing: this or "sensing" that. I sought the Lord about that, because when the Lord revealed Himself to me, I asked Him about these things and He told me that I didn't need them because I had the written Word of God and I was to live by faith in what was in it.

You cast doubt on other people's experience of God speaking, but then use the same process to justify your own higher viewpoint.
ie. You stated that God told you, when in reality you merely "sensed" that the Lord told you that you didn't need such things! You are no different to those you cast doubt on.

When God started speaking to me, after I sought Him in the middle of a golf course in the dead of night under the stars and introduced myself to Him because no one had ever been able to do so, even though they introduced me to all the religious activities in the Pentecostal church, it was if He was speaking deep within me. I asked Him about that and He said that He spoke to my spirit and my mind interpreted it.

And why can't you accept that God does similar with others when they also "sense" things that God wants to reveal to them.

I have found that when God speaks to me, somehow I know it, either it has been a verse of scripture jumping out at me, or a definite thought that I had not thought a second ago, or in the pages of a book that I just picked up at random, or the advice of a good Christian friend.

I am not denying anything you describe here Oscarr, I'm just perplexed at your distain for others who are on a similar journey.

But when I looked at how psychics performed, I found many similarities between them and those in my church who said that they "sensed" things in the Spirit. That concerned me, because it seemed that there was no difference between how psychics sensed things and some of these church people did.

The same could be said about the way you use the bible.

It seemed to me that these church people were putting more faith in what they were "sensing" than what was actually written in the Bible. In fact, many of the things "sensed" were contradicting the teaching of the Scripture.

Prior to the Pentecostal awakening at the turn of the 20th century, for almost 2000 years the church had been in the hands of leaders who had no perspective on spiritual gifts, their only legitimate resource being the bible.
Despite that biblical source, they managed to create literally thousands of different sects and denominations to split the body of Christ with conflicting or demonic theologies.

This has led me to believe that a lot of this "sensing" is not of faith and whatever is not of faith cannot please God and quite possibly does not come from Him.

I can see both sides of this discussion and I think your main problem is one of semantics Oscarr.
I have been hearing the voice of the Lord for over 50 years. He speaks in countless different ways, some similar to your experience and some similar to those you discount.
No matter which way we receive, discernment is always needed.

 

[tturt]

Welcome to the forums, Alisia Bea.

In regards to tongues: looking at I Cor 12 especially 1-12 and I Cor 14. The manifestations of the spiritual gifts are given by The Holy Spirit to believers. There's a diversities of tongues (I Cor 12:28) including tongues for the edification of a believer (I Cor 14:4) and the edification of the church such as the gift of tongues with interpretation ( I Cor 14:5).

In the groups that received tongues in Scripture, it states "all" that were there received including the women (Acts 4:31; 10:44-46; 19:2-6) with the exception on the Day of Pentecost, outside the Upper Room, where there were mockers of tongues (Acts 2).

In regards to the other experiences, everything that Yahweh has a purpose. So you would want to asks Him when something is revealed, what He wants you to do. Sometimes it's to pray.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

You cast doubt on other people's experience of God speaking, but then use the same process to justify your own higher viewpoint.
ie. You stated that God told you, when in reality you merely "sensed" that the Lord told you that you didn't need such things! You are no different to those you cast doubt on.

And why can't you accept that God does similar with others when they also "sense" things that God wants to reveal to them.

I am not denying anything you describe here Oscarr, I'm just perplexed at your distain for others who are on a similar journey.

The same could be said about the way you use the bible.

Prior to the Pentecostal awakening at the turn of the 20th century, for almost 2000 years the church had been in the hands of leaders who had no perspective on spiritual gifts, their only legitimate resource being the bible.
Despite that biblical source, they managed to create literally thousands of different sects and denominations to split the body of Christ with conflicting or demonic theologies.


I can see both sides of this discussion and I think your main problem is one of semantics Oscarr.
I have been hearing the voice of the Lord for over 50 years. He speaks in countless different ways, some similar to your experience and some similar to those you discount.
No matter which way we receive, discernment is always needed.

I agree with everything you have expressed. The word is given for our learning. But many want to put our Father in a box. But there are great and many mysteries written in the Bible that a lot of people refuse to acknowledge.The gifts of the Holy Spirit did not disappear when the last apostle died as some denominations teach.Some people are gifted one way, others another. The Church will continue to be feeble as long as people listen to satan telling them that what they experience is not of God. Scripture is often misunderstood. But that does no mean that the supernatural does not happen.Scripture shows much supernatural activity. I don't understand how people deny that.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You cast doubt on other people's experience of God speaking, but then use the same process to justify your own higher viewpoint.
ie. You stated that God told you, when in reality you merely "sensed" that the Lord told you that you didn't need such things! You are no different to those you cast doubt on.

And why can't you accept that God does similar with others when they also "sense" things that God wants to reveal to them.

I am not denying anything you describe here Oscarr, I'm just perplexed at your distain for others who are on a similar journey.

The same could be said about the way you use the bible.

Prior to the Pentecostal awakening at the turn of the 20th century, for almost 2000 years the church had been in the hands of leaders who had no perspective on spiritual gifts, their only legitimate resource being the bible.
Despite that biblical source, they managed to create literally thousands of different sects and denominations to split the body of Christ with conflicting or demonic theologies.


I can see both sides of this discussion and I think your main problem is one of semantics Oscarr.
I have been hearing the voice of the Lord for over 50 years. He speaks in countless different ways, some similar to your experience and some similar to those you discount.
No matter which way we receive, discernment is always needed.

I understand your response to my post. I am merely giving a different point of view instead of "rubber stamping" every sensory spiritual experience as being from God. It is just that I adhere very strictly to the written Word, and every direct word that I have received from the Lord has been in absolutely compliance with the clear teaching of Scripture. God does speak to our hearts and we can recognise His voice. But at the same time, I believe Jesse Penn-Lewis (War on the Saints) that nine out of every ten sensory perceptions comes from the world, flesh and the devil. (of course Penn-Lewis reacted in some ways quite negatively to the manifestations that occurred during the Welsh Revival and may have gone a bit over the top with her comments). I think the danger is in putting our faith in sensory experiences instead of keeping our foundation in God's written Word and testing every experience by the Word. If it is not supported, or is contrary to the teaching of Scripture, then it has to be rejected. If people are looking for a sensory experience, the devil is always there to give them one.

I don't mean to put people down who have sensory experiences or hear the voice of God in different ways. All I did was to share how God speaks to me. Each person is different and God speaks to them in different ways, but Hebrews 1 clearly states that however God speaks to individuals, it always has to be in and through Christ. The voice of God comes no other way. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father except by Me." Therefore any voice, impression, or sensory experience that does not show that the risen Jesus is Lord of all, cannot be from God because God speaks only through His Son Jesus Christ. Therefore anything coming from the Holy Spirit always puts Jesus on the throne as Lord. Anything that glorifies the person having the sensory gift is not of the Holy Spirit therefore it cannot be of God. This is why I have serious doubts when a person is described as having a special "gift" which makes him or her something special in themselves.

 

[Francis Drake]

I understand your response to my post. I am merely giving a different point of view instead of "rubber stamping" every sensory spiritual experience as being from God. It is just that I adhere very strictly to the written Word, and every direct word that I have received from the Lord has been in absolutely compliance with the clear teaching of Scripture.

I'm sorry Oscarr, but nobody mentioned "rubber stamping" every sensory spiritual experience etc.
Whether a "word" comes from scripture, or from our spiritual senses, discernment is still always required. Neither has more authority that the other.
Insisting that the Lord speaks in absolute compliance with scripture has no scriptural basis, its just another false belief that hamstrings God to work within limits set by you. You only have to go through scripture itself to see that God speaks things that have never been revealed before.
In the last 50 years, I have directly received countless words from the Lord, many that have nothing whatsoever to do with scripture.
If we remove the strictures and listen, the Lord will speak to us about many things that have nothing whatsoever to do with doctrine or theology, the scriptures being completely irrelevant.

God does speak to our hearts and we can recognise His voice. But at the same time, I believe Jesse Penn-Lewis (War on the Saints) that nine out of every ten sensory perceptions comes from the world, flesh and the devil.

Jessie Penn-Lewis might have said that, but it could equally be proved that ninety-nine out of a hundred heresies come from bible teachers who create their doctrines exclusively from the bibles.

I think the danger is in putting our faith in sensory experiences instead of keeping our foundation in God's written Word and testing every experience by the Word. If it is not supported, or is contrary to the teaching of Scripture, then it has to be rejected. If people are looking for a sensory experience, the devil is always there to give them one.

At the end of the day, testing every word by scripture merely means testing it by what you personally "feel" the scripture is saying. ie. just like those you condemn, you rely on your "senses". If that were not the case, every bible teacher would teach exactly the same things!

I don't mean to put people down who have sensory experiences or hear the voice of God in different ways. All I did was to share how God speaks to me. Each person is different and God speaks to them in different ways,

But Oscarr, you did put them down and you continue to put them down.

but Hebrews 1 clearly states that however God speaks to individuals, it always has to be in and through Christ. The voice of God comes no other way. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father except by Me." Therefore any voice, impression, or sensory experience that does not show that the risen Jesus is Lord of all, cannot be from God because God speaks only through His Son Jesus Christ.

Again Oscarr, you are misquoting scripture, and setting your own rules of engagement.
When the Lord has spoken to me, I cannot call to mind any words showing the risen Jesus is Lord of all.
Given that his Lordship is the basis of my life, such words would be completely superfluous!

Therefore anything coming from the Holy Spirit always puts Jesus on the throne as Lord.
Anything that glorifies the person having the sensory gift is not of the Holy Spirit therefore it cannot be of God. This is why I have serious doubts when a person is described as having a special "gift" which makes him or her something special in themselves.

Oscarr, this is what you stated at the beginning,-
"It is just that I adhere very strictly to the written Word, and every direct word that I have received from the Lord has been in absolutely compliance with the clear teaching of Scripture."
From this statement, you are glorifying your gift above the others that you keep distaining. It appears clear that in your own mind you have perfected yourself as an eminent source when it comes to knowing the mind of Christ.
You have done exactly what you condemn others for!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm sorry Oscarr, but nobody mentioned "rubber stamping" every sensory spiritual experience etc.
Whether a "word" comes from scripture, or from our spiritual senses, discernment is still always required. Neither has more authority that the other.
Insisting that the Lord speaks in absolute compliance with scripture has no scriptural basis, its just another false belief that hamstrings God to work within limits set by you. You only have to go through scripture itself to see that God speaks things that have never been revealed before.
In the last 50 years, I have directly received countless words from the Lord, many that have nothing whatsoever to do with scripture.
If we remove the strictures and listen, the Lord will speak to us about many things that have nothing whatsoever to do with doctrine or theology, the scriptures being completely irrelevant.

Jessie Penn-Lewis might have said that, but it could equally be proved that ninety-nine out of a hundred heresies come from bible teachers who create their doctrines exclusively from the bibles.

At the end of the day, testing every word by scripture merely means testing it by what you personally "feel" the scripture is saying. ie. just like those you condemn, you rely on your "senses". If that were not the case, every bible teacher would teach exactly the same things!

But Oscarr, you did put them down and you continue to put them down.

Again Oscarr, you are misquoting scripture, and setting your own rules of engagement.
When the Lord has spoken to me, I cannot call to mind any words showing the risen Jesus is Lord of all.
Given that his Lordship is the basis of my life, such words would be completely superfluous!

Oscarr, this is what you stated at the beginning,-
"It is just that I adhere very strictly to the written Word, and every direct word that I have received from the Lord has been in absolutely compliance with the clear teaching of Scripture."
From this statement, you are glorifying your gift above the others that you keep distaining. It appears clear that in your own mind you have perfected yourself as an eminent source when it comes to knowing the mind of Christ.
You have done exactly what you condemn others for!

I think we need to keep with the issues and not kick the player instead of the ball. And I think that we are talking past each other when we are actually in agreement about the different ways that God speaks to us. God does speak to our spirit first because He is a Spirit and the first communication is Spirit to spirit. It is our mind that picks up the impulse and interprets it, and then we have a sensory response to it consisting in love, joy and peace. I have no argument about that, and I guess you don't either.

What I read in the OP was that the person was talking about having a special "gift" of a type of sensory perception that seemed to me to be similar to psychic phenomena. I believe that this is one of the great deceptions that has crept into the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, inducing people to have faith in sensory experiences rather than on the foundation of God's Word. For a person to say, "I sense in the Spirit", is basically the same as a psychic saying, "I sense that...etc." except that the psychic doesn't mention the Holy Spirit. You will find that the gift of sensing things in the spirit is not included in any of the lists of spiritual gifts. I know that there are some ministries (William Branham for instance) who could tell a person's name, address, and other personal details without ever meeting them before. But this type of gifting tends to elevate the person rather than Christ and therefore I doubt that the gifting actually comes from God. The devil knows those details as well and he can quite easily disclose them to someone who believes they have a "gifting" in that area. I see no difference between that and what a psychic does.

Don't get me wrong. I firmly believe in the operation of the Word of Knowledge, Wisdom, and Discernment of Spirits. But these are gifts to the body of Christ and not the possessions of a particular person. These gifts, or prophetic tools, are available to any person ministering as the need arises. If a person claims that they possess a certain gift, I say they are wrong, because they cannot own the gift for themselves, but they have the right to use it when the need arises. It is like hiring a rug doctor to clean your carpets. You don't own it, but you have the use of it to meet your need. A rental car is owned by the rental agency, but you can arrange to have the use of it. In the same way, the spiritual gifts are owned by the body of Christ, and we have the use of them when required.

In the early days of the Pentecostal movement, there were many manifestations that were of a sensory nature. I believe that this was due to the immaturity of the movement and the believers in it. God needed to do things that way to reinforce the truths behind the manifestations. The trouble is that many of these sensory manifestations have found their way into doctrine where people base their faith on them. In the same way, new Christians tend to experience more sensory manifestations and experiences than more mature ones. This is because God uses the sensory experiences to strengthen the developing faith of young believers, and when faith is perfected and becomes the basis of Christian living and ministry, the sensory manifestations tend to fade away.

When I was a young Christian, the voice of God was loud in my spirit and mind, but as my faith strengthened in God's written Word, the voice moderated to a still small voice. This is in keeping with the scripture that maturity and experiences makes a believer more able to discern between good and evil. This discernment comes with maturity. But when a believer is young in the faith, the signals have to be loud and clear for the believer to notice them; but with maturity, the signals are much quieter because the believer has learned through experience to pick them up more readily when there is just a quiet prompting in his spirit.

 

[Alithis]

I understand your response to my post. I am merely giving a different point of view instead of "rubber stamping" every sensory spiritual experience as being from God. It is just that I adhere very strictly to the written Word, and every direct word that I have received from the Lord has been in absolutely compliance with the clear teaching of Scripture. God does speak to our hearts and we can recognise His voice. But at the same time, I believe Jesse Penn-Lewis (War on the Saints) that nine out of every ten sensory perceptions comes from the world, flesh and the devil. (of course Penn-Lewis reacted in some ways quite negatively to the manifestations that occurred during the Welsh Revival and may have gone a bit over the top with her comments). I think the danger is in putting our faith in sensory experiences instead of keeping our foundation in God's written Word and testing every experience by the Word. If it is not supported, or is contrary to the teaching of Scripture, then it has to be rejected. If people are looking for a sensory experience, the devil is always there to give them one.

I don't mean to put people down who have sensory experiences or hear the voice of God in different ways. All I did was to share how God speaks to me. Each person is different and God speaks to them in different ways, but Hebrews 1 clearly states that however God speaks to individuals, it always has to be in and through Christ. The voice of God comes no other way. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father except by Me." Therefore any voice, impression, or sensory experience that does not show that the risen Jesus is Lord of all, cannot be from God because God speaks only through His Son Jesus Christ. Therefore anything coming from the Holy Spirit always puts Jesus on the throne as Lord. Anything that glorifies the person having the sensory gift is not of the Holy Spirit therefore it cannot be of God. This is why I have serious doubts when a person is described as having a special "gift" which makes him or her something special in themselves.

I would go further and suggest that what the op experienced as a child and later is not the holy spirit attribute of discernment ..
Being aware of spirits (angels both legit and fallen are spirits) is not discernment.
Discernment is when one knows by the holy spirit the true spiritual motivations behind an action a teaching a prayer a doctrine a testimony ...
One can see it sense spirits all around a church service yet not discern they are devils.
We see this with the whole kundalini thing as some have coined it.
They experience many spuritual experiences..some are not spiritual at all but just over oxygenation..
While others are outright demonic .

So how do we know the difference? This is where the holy spirit gift of discernment comes in and he does not give some this ability as if they are somewhat more special ..
But that they may teach all others and equip all others to move with the holy Spirit and all grow up and become discerners.
So I believe discernment has nothing to do with the ability to be aware of the spiritual realm but rather to know what is of God and what is fake.

The girl the apostles encountered had the ability to see into the spiritual realm and to speak out some true facts.
Ie..“These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved."..so what She is saying appeared good ..was factually true.
BUT...Paul discerned she did so by the abilities of a devil inside her and cast it out.
This is a great picture of spiritual discernment.

Some people can say all the right words yet be a devil speaking...we need the true gift of discernment and it's not the ability to see spirits. That ability in itself may not be of God.

 

[Francis Drake]

I think we need to keep with the issues and not kick the player instead of the ball.

I agree we need to stick to the issue, but it is you Oscarr, who has been consistently kicking everyone who doesn't comply with your "bible only" doctrine.
I hold both ways equally valid, and equally at risk.

And I think that we are talking past each other when we are actually in agreement about the different ways that God speaks to us. God does speak to our spirit first because He is a Spirit and the first communication is Spirit to spirit. It is our mind that picks up the impulse and interprets it, and then we have a sensory response to it consisting in love, joy and peace. I have no argument about that, and I guess you don't either.

That's a pretty good analysis of how it works. But I still reject your claim that the bible is the only base of authority. You completely overlook the fact that you, I, and everyone else all interpret the bible by the use of our various "senses", whether spiritual, intellectual, or demonic. If that was not the case, there would not be the immense multitude of heresies that theologians have managed to split the church with.
Thus your bible basis is no better at handling deception than just sensing things in the spirit.
As I keep saying, the real issue is discernment.

What I read in the OP was that the person was talking about having a special "gift" of a type of sensory perception that seemed to me to be similar to psychic phenomena.

Of course receiving something in the spirit is similar to psychic phenomena, that's because it's still a spirit to spirit exercise.
The issue is not the method, but discernment.

I believe that this is one of the great deceptions that has crept into the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, inducing people to have faith in sensory experiences rather than on the foundation of God's Word. For a person to say, "I sense in the Spirit", is basically the same as a psychic saying, "I sense that...etc." except that the psychic doesn't mention the Holy Spirit. You will find that the gift of sensing things in the spirit is not included in any of the lists of spiritual gifts.

I completely disagree Oscarr, scripture tells us that "sensing things in the spirit" is how we receive and move in all spiritual gifts.
In my mind you are making a mountain out of a molehill with semantic differences.

I have often used such language when the "still small voice" is so very still and small that I am not entirely confident I really "sensed" it, and am looking for confirmation from others, which is precisely what we are told to do. My wife and I do that all the time when we are praying and listening.

Its like a lookout on a ship reporting a feint smudge on the horizon. He is not utterly convinced so gets others to focus in the same direction to confirm his sighting.
With your "bible only" rigidity, you have completely closed off God's ability to reveal things to you outside of your little safety cage.

I know that there are some ministries (William Branham for instance) who could tell a person's name, address, and other personal details without ever meeting them before. But this type of gifting tends to elevate the person rather than Christ and therefore I doubt that the gifting actually comes from God.

Such precision gifting no more elevates the person, than you are doing here by claiming your expert bible knowledge trumps all else.

Scripture is full of examples where the Holy Spirit reveals tiny personal details.
Look at the story of Saul when he was looking for his father's donkeys. They go to the seer, Samuel, and find he has already been given a word to anoint him king, and that his dad's donkeys have been found.
Samuel then also gives Saul very specific instructions of three different groups of people he will meet on his way home, exactly what they will say to him and what he will do in response.
All without Saul even asking. Did that glorify Samuel or the Lord?
Whether it's the gift of a word of knowledge, or the gift of teaching, there will always be people seeking personal glory from it.
Again, it is discernment that we all need.

The devil knows those details as well and he can quite easily disclose them to someone who believes they have a "gifting" in that area. I see no difference between that and what a psychic does.

And what's the difference between the devil counterfeiting the gifts of the spirit, and the devil counterfeiting bible teaching. We both know that the church at large is riddled with false doctrines and heresies, the vast majority of which can be laid at the door of the bible teachers, not spiritual gifts!

From the very beginning, Satan has been a master craftsman at using God's words or scriptures to control and manipulate people.
That's how many churches have been led for centuries.
How does anyone know you aren't doing the same with your bible Oscarr? I don't for a moment accuse you of that, I'm just playing back your own argument.

Don't get me wrong. I firmly believe in the operation of the Word of Knowledge, Wisdom, and Discernment of Spirits. But these are gifts to the body of Christ and not the possessions of a particular person. These gifts, or prophetic tools, are available to any person ministering as the need arises. If a person claims that they possess a certain gift, I say they are wrong, because they cannot own the gift for themselves, but they have the right to use it when the need arises.

Again I you are messing around with semantics Oscarr, none of the above really matters does it?
As far as I am concerned, the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, ours to use.

It is like hiring a rug doctor to clean your carpets. You don't own it, but you have the use of it to meet your need. A rental car is owned by the rental agency, but you can arrange to have the use of it. In the same way, the spiritual gifts are owned by the body of Christ, and we have the use of them when required.

In the early days of the Pentecostal movement, there were many manifestations that were of a sensory nature. I believe that this was due to the immaturity of the movement and the believers in it.

The same was true for the Toronto blessing, and other similar revivals. The church at large has so shunned overt spiritual activities, that when it comes, it gets grossly mishandled.
The very worst thing is when so called bible experts condemn it as all demonic.

God needed to do things that way to reinforce the truths behind the manifestations. The trouble is that many of these sensory manifestations have found their way into doctrine where people base their faith on them. In the same way, new Christians tend to experience more sensory manifestations and experiences than more mature ones. This is because God uses the sensory experiences to strengthen the developing faith of young believers, and when faith is perfected and becomes the basis of Christian living and ministry, the sensory manifestations tend to fade away.

I utterly reject this. Did sensory manifestations fade away in the early church. The fading away came when they started to fall away from God and substitute dogma and doctrine for the gifts of the spirit.
Over the last 40 years or so, my hearing and discernment in the spirit has grown along with my understanding of the written word. Neither trumps the other.

When I was a young Christian, the voice of God was loud in my spirit and mind, but as my faith strengthened in God's written Word, the voice moderated to a still small voice. This is in keeping with the scripture that maturity and experiences makes a believer more able to discern between good and evil. This discernment comes with maturity. But when a believer is young in the faith, the signals have to be loud and clear for the believer to notice them; but with maturity, the signals are much quieter because the believer has learned through experience to pick them up more readily when there is just a quiet prompting in his spirit.

It might be your experience, but I reject this as doctrine.
To me, everything you write shows you constantly exalt your knowledge above your spirit! Adam did that at the Tree of Knowledge.
Show me any verses that say rhema words dry up as you learn scripture.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I agree we need to stick to the issue, but it is you Oscarr, who has been consistently kicking everyone who doesn't comply with your "bible only" doctrine.
I hold both ways equally valid, and equally at risk.

That's a pretty good analysis of how it works. But I still reject your claim that the bible is the only base of authority. You completely overlook the fact that you, I, and everyone else all interpret the bible by the use of our various "senses", whether spiritual, intellectual, or demonic. If that was not the case, there would not be the immense multitude of heresies that theologians have managed to split the church with.
Thus your bible basis is no better at handling deception than just sensing things in the spirit.
As I keep saying, the real issue is discernment.

Of course receiving something in the spirit is similar to psychic phenomena, that's because it's still a spirit to spirit exercise.
The issue is not the method, but discernment.

I completely disagree Oscarr, scripture tells us that "sensing things in the spirit" is how we receive and move in all spiritual gifts.
In my mind you are making a mountain out of a molehill with semantic differences.

I have often used such language when the "still small voice" is so very still and small that I am not entirely confident I really "sensed" it, and am looking for confirmation from others, which is precisely what we are told to do. My wife and I do that all the time when we are praying and listening.

Its like a lookout on a ship reporting a feint smudge on the horizon. He is not utterly convinced so gets others to focus in the same direction to confirm his sighting.
With your "bible only" rigidity, you have completely closed off God's ability to reveal things to you outside of your little safety cage.

Such precision gifting no more elevates the person, than you are doing here by claiming your expert bible knowledge trumps all else.

Scripture is full of examples where the Holy Spirit reveals tiny personal details.
Look at the story of Saul when he was looking for his father's donkeys. They go to the seer, Samuel, and find he has already been given a word to anoint him king, and that his dad's donkeys have been found.
Samuel then also gives Saul very specific instructions of three different groups of people he will meet on his way home, exactly what they will say to him and what he will do in response.
All without Saul even asking. Did that glorify Samuel or the Lord?
Whether it's the gift of a word of knowledge, or the gift of teaching, there will always be people seeking personal glory from it.
Again, it is discernment that we all need.

And what's the difference between the devil counterfeiting the gifts of the spirit, and the devil counterfeiting bible teaching. We both know that the church at large is riddled with false doctrines and heresies, the vast majority of which can be laid at the door of the bible teachers, not spiritual gifts!

From the very beginning, Satan has been a master craftsman at using God's words or scriptures to control and manipulate people.
That's how many churches have been led for centuries.
How does anyone know you aren't doing the same with your bible Oscarr? I don't for a moment accuse you of that, I'm just playing back your own argument.

Again I you are messing around with semantics Oscarr, none of the above really matters does it?
As far as I am concerned, the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, ours to use.

The same was true for the Toronto blessing, and other similar revivals. The church at large has so shunned overt spiritual activities, that when it comes, it gets grossly mishandled.
The very worst thing is when so called bible experts condemn it as all demonic.

I utterly reject this. Did sensory manifestations fade away in the early church. The fading away came when they started to fall away from God and substitute dogma and doctrine for the gifts of the spirit.
Over the last 40 years or so, my hearing and discernment in the spirit has grown along with my understanding of the written word. Neither trumps the other.

It might be your experience, but I reject this as doctrine.
To me, everything you write shows you constantly exalt your knowledge above your spirit! Adam did that at the Tree of Knowledge.
Show me any verses that say rhema words dry up as you learn scripture.

The you messages and accusations weaken your position. This is not about me at all. It is about expressing different views about how we experience the presence of God. I guess if a person can't provide an answer to opposing views then all they can do is to discredit the person putting them.

 

[Alithis]

The you messages and accusations weaken your position. This is not about me at all. It is about expressing different views about how we experience the presence of God. I guess if a person can't provide an answer to opposing views then all they can do is to discredit the person putting them.

@Oscarr . Yes Oscarr I agree Oscar it's not about you Oscar.Oscar , you Oscar, is not what it is about Oscar.did i mention Oscar that you Oscar is not what itscabout Oscar??

Ok ok I'm havin a laugh

 

[Francis Drake]

The you messages and accusations weaken your position. This is not about me at all. It is about expressing different views about how we experience the presence of God. I guess if a person can't provide an answer to opposing views then all they can do is to discredit the person putting them.

Tut tut Oscarr, we are very sensitive today!
You write a rather lengthy post, in which you discredited anyone and everyone who didn't follow your approved way.
I answered every single point you made with clear and valid argument, and in a couple places reflected your own accusations back to yourself.
Here's one of them-

I don't for a moment accuse you of that, I'm just playing back your own argument.

As I said, I believe both sources are of equal value, yours and theirs. The primary necessity in all cases is discernment.
The problem comes when a congregation behaves like an audience of Paul's milk drinkers. It matters not whether it's bible teaching or prophecy or vision, they just swallow it whole making no attempt to judge or use discernment or chew it over.
That's why Christians get deceived.
I never swallow anything without chewing it over with my discernment teeth in, and spitting out stuff that doesn't taste right.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

@Oscarr . Yes Oscarr I agree Oscar it's not about you Oscar.Oscar , you Oscar, is not what it is about Oscar.did i mention Oscar that you Oscar is not what itscabout Oscar??

Ok ok I'm havin a laugh

You remind me of my paranoid dog. When I throw him a stick he doesn't know what to bring back so he brings back everything!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Tut tut Oscarr, we are very sensitive today!
You write a rather lengthy post, in which you discredited anyone and everyone who didn't follow your approved way.
I answered every single point you made with clear and valid argument, and in a couple places reflected your own accusations back to yourself.
Here's one of them-

As I said, I believe both sources are of equal value, yours and theirs. The primary necessity in all cases is discernment.
The problem comes when a congregation behaves like an audience of Paul's milk drinkers. It matters not whether it's bible teaching or prophecy or vision, they just swallow it whole making no attempt to judge or use discernment or chew it over.
That's why Christians get deceived.
I never swallow anything without chewing it over with my discernment teeth in, and spitting out stuff that doesn't taste right.

Your bold type reminds me of the preacher who left his notes behind in the pulpit. In the margins with guidance comments and in one section heavily underlined in red was the margin note, "Shout for all you're worth; argument very weak!"

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Tut tut Oscarr, we are very sensitive today!
You write a rather lengthy post, in which you discredited anyone and everyone who didn't follow your approved way.
I answered every single point you made with clear and valid argument, and in a couple places reflected your own accusations back to yourself.
Here's one of them-

As I said, I believe both sources are of equal value, yours and theirs. The primary necessity in all cases is discernment.
The problem comes when a congregation behaves like an audience of Paul's milk drinkers. It matters not whether it's bible teaching or prophecy or vision, they just swallow it whole making no attempt to judge or use discernment or chew it over.
That's why Christians get deceived.
I never swallow anything without chewing it over with my discernment teeth in, and spitting out stuff that doesn't taste right.

I always enjoy a good debate and I am my father's child. He was a very opinionated man who was a very crafty debater. My brother and I had some very passionate debates with dad about religion and politics and he would push our buttons until we started shouting at him and then he would say, "You've lost the argument." And we asked why. He replied, "Because you raised your voices!" My dad passed away in 1982. When we get together, my brother and I have some very active debates, especially about religion and I have to work hard to hold my ground. So, having understood that, you will know what I am like.

I mean nothing personal and I don't hold grudges. I sometimes get bored with CF when too many people agree with me. When folks oppose me, then I have fun and it keeps me motivated. They make me think more deeply about what I believe, and I will be corrected if someone proves me wrong. But I warn you, you will have to work hard with me to achieve that! Hahahahaha! I can only remember once on CF that I actually conceded defeat after a very long debate with someone. He really sent me to the cleaners, believe me!