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Senate votes to give illegals Social Security

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seebs

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It seems to me that the legal question is only relevant to people who aren't Christians or Deists. Otherwise, we're talking about rights endowed by the Creator, and only recognized by law. These rights have nothing to do with whether or not we are citizens, or whether we are here legally or not; they are the inherent rights granted by virtue of having a soul.

More pragmatically, the notion that not being here "legally" denies you civil rights is just plain ludicrous on its face. Someone trying to use this as a defense in a murder case would be laughed right out of court and into jail.

Human rights are the rights of humans, not the rights of particular citizens. Even if we can legally get away with denying this, it remains wrong, so why would we want to?
 
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Ave Maria

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LogicChristian said:
I haven't seen an article that says immigrants are getting it without paying in. What I'm reading thus far is that immigrants that can show they were paying into the system can get social security.

Oh okay. Well, if that's the case then I support this legislation rather than oppose it. They deserve to get out what they put in. I just assumed that because they were illegal aliens that they weren't able to put anything in to the system.
 
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Letalis

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seebs said:
It seems to me that the legal question is only relevant to people who aren't Christians or Deists. Otherwise, we're talking about rights endowed by the Creator, and only recognized by law. These rights have nothing to do with whether or not we are citizens, or whether we are here legally or not; they are the inherent rights granted by virtue of having a soul.

More pragmatically, the notion that not being here "legally" denies you civil rights is just plain ludicrous on its face. Someone trying to use this as a defense in a murder case would be laughed right out of court and into jail.

Human rights are the rights of humans, not the rights of particular citizens. Even if we can legally get away with denying this, it remains wrong, so why would we want to?
"Thou shalt have social security benefits." :confused:

;)
 
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Daywolf

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PaladinDoodler said:
Oh okay. Well, if that's the case then I support this legislation rather than oppose it. They deserve...
Suuuure, like I didn’t see that coming.

Guess we can just cross out “you shall not lie” and “you shall not steal” and may as well scratch #3 and #10 while we are at it. Heck, we should just start breaking state and federal laws at will and rip up the US constitution. We’ll just start distributing the wealth that God had endowed us with as a nation and digress to 3rd world nation status. Once the hordes are done with us then they will simply leave the barren and desolate country-side to return to their OWN country-- with a little “ha-ha” out the door.

I don’t care if any paid into it… actually I DO care because I don’t WANT them paying into it(and it's not legal to do so), just want them to get out! Generally, social security pays out more than one puts into it (if they live that long) and Illegals certainly have no rite to that payout. That payout is for US citizens that actually care about this nation enough to not cart off the plunders to some other nation. It’s for people that lived by the law of the land, worked to actually improve THIS nation (not by western union to whatever country), maybe who served in defense of this country or other forms of state/national service. These are the ones that deserve social security, NOT hordes of invaders that are not wanted here and pay allegiance to another country, who break our laws, bust our unions, shut down our hospitals and menace our citizens with crime (i.e. MS-13 or running drugs in).
 
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Ave Maria

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Daywolf said:
Suuuure, like I didn’t see that coming.

Guess we can just cross out “you shall not lie” and “you shall not steal” and may as well scratch #3 and #10 while we are at it. Heck, we should just start breaking state and federal laws at will and rip up the US constitution. We’ll just start distributing the wealth that God had endowed us with as a nation and digress to 3rd world nation status. Once the hordes are done with us then they will simply leave the barren and desolate country-side to return to their OWN country-- with a little “ha-ha” out the door.

I don’t care if any paid into it… actually I DO care because I don’t WANT them paying into it(and it's not legal to do so), just want them to get out! Generally, social security pays out more than one puts into it (if they live that long) and Illegals certainly have no rite to that payout. That payout is for US citizens that actually care about this nation enough to not cart off the plunders to some other nation. It’s for people that lived by the law of the land, worked to actually improve THIS nation (not by western union to whatever country), maybe who served in defense of this country or other forms of state/national service. These are the ones that deserve social security, NOT hordes of invaders that are not wanted here and pay allegiance to another country, who break our laws, bust our unions, shut down our hospitals and menace our citizens with crime (i.e. MS-13 or running drugs in).

First of all, please quote me in context next time. I don't appreciate you quoting only part of what I actually said.

Second of all if they are paying in to social security then they deserve to get the benefits of it. Otherwise they are just giving the rest of us free social security and that is not right.
 
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Daywolf

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PaladinDoodler said:
First of all, please quote me in context next time. I don't appreciate you quoting only part of what I actually said.
I did post it in context, I just cut off the part that didn’t need to be re-posted. Did it change the context at all?? No!

PaladinDoodler said:
Second of all if they are paying in to social security then they deserve to get the benefits of it.
They do not deserve a thing! They deserve to be put in prison. Shall we give them what they REALLY deserve?

PaladinDoodler said:
Otherwise they are just giving the rest of us free social security and that is not right.
Incoherent, they are not giving anything, they are breaking the law! They are breaking state and federal law, they are even breaking a good portion of the 10 commandments as a life style! I do not promote such actions, I won‘t bid them to do so or be an accessory, they need to leave my country, I‘m not paying for their social security benefits that will add up to more than they illegally put into it! This is just going to lead to mass amounts of corruption! And even if they can prove it, they should be put into prison! prison!!
 
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jamesrwright3

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Logic,

The numbers are not in your favor. Unless you are going to say this is ok,there is really no sense in debating the issue further


This is only for the federal government..
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html


#

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

#

Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

#

With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.


Now onto the states themselves...

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm


In hosting America's largest population of illegal immigrants, California bears a huge cost to provide basic human services for this fast growing, low-income segment of its population. A new study from the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) examines the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens, and concludes that the costs to Californians is $10.5 billion per year.
 
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LogicChristian

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jamesrwright3 said:
Logic,

The numbers are not in your favor. Unless you are going to say this is ok,there is really no sense in debating the issue further


This is only for the federal government..
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html


This doesn't mention though the economic benefits we derive from immigrants in the field of cheaper goods and services. Also, as long as $10 billion is less than $41 billion, the numbers will remain on my side.

There's also the issue that it's always going to be more expensive to track them all down and get them out and make a fence or other means that keeps them all out than it does to keep them here. Really James, do you think this country can deport 12 million+ people and come up with a system to keep them out that's going to cost less than $10 billion a year?

Sorry James, as long as it's going to cost $41 billion a year to get and keep these people out, the math isn't going to be on your side.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/25/AR2005072501605_pf.html

The federal government has considerably more to gain from making the system more honest.

The issue here isn't just how many taxes they pay versus how many services they use, the net economic benefit to the economy of the lower priced goods and services we glean from them also need to be taken into account. We also need to set that against the cost of actually getting these people out, which is considerable.
 
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LogicChristian

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Daywolf said:
They do not deserve a thing! They deserve to be put in prison. Shall we give them what they REALLY deserve?

Do you have the money to lock them up or get them out
Daywolf said:
Incoherent, they are not giving anything, they are breaking the law! They are breaking state and federal law, they are even breaking a good portion of the 10 commandments as a life style! I do not promote such actions, I won‘t bid them to do so or be an accessory, they need to leave my country, I‘m not paying for their social security benefits that will add up to more than they illegally put into it! This is just going to lead to mass amounts of corruption! And even if they can prove it, they should be put into prison! prison!!

How are they breaking the 10 commandments by living here without documents?
Do you think Jesus would fault these people for wanting a better life for their children? Furthermore, do you have the money to prosecute all of these people or send them back? Because I sure as heck don't have $41 billion a year.
 
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Lanakila

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My take on this. Stop blaming poor starving Mexicans, and start fining and even siezing the companies that hire them. I am not talking mere hand slaps either. Those companies are lawbreakers, and drug dealers get their property siezed, so should the company executives and owners.
 
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Fantine

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Social Security entitlement is based on contributions and earnings. If illegal aliens contributed to the system the requisite number of years, and their employers contributed to the system on their behalf, they should be entitled to benefits.

If they are restricted from applying for benefits, their contributions and their employers' contributions should be refunded.

I think we either need to have a system where the SS payments of illegal immigrants and their employers are automatically refunded when their illegal status is determined, or else we need to allow them to collect benefits if they have enough quarters. Anything else would be inequitable.

Do we take away the right to collect Social Security benefits from Americans who have committed crimes? No.
 
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jamesrwright3

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This doesn't mention though the economic benefits we derive from immigrants in the field of cheaper goods and services. Also, as long as $10 billion is less than $41 billion, the numbers will remain on my side.

You are now changing the debate. I am not saying forceful removal so my math is the correct math. They are costing the taxpayers at least 30 billions dollars a year. Federal is 10 billion. California is 10 billion. I believe Arizona and Texas combine for another 10 billion

They are taking out more than they put in. That is the botttom line

The 41 billon dollar figure for FORCEFUL removal is irrelevant because no one is suggest a physical removal. Just an adminstrative removal which would cost us, little, if anything to do


There's also the issue that it's always going to be more expensive to track them all down and get them out and make a fence or other means that keeps them all out than it does to keep them here. Really James, do you think this country can deport 12 million+ people and come up with a system to keep them out that's going to cost less than $10 billion a year?

Once again an invisible fence is what I am advocating. Create disincenctives for them to come over and fewer will come


Sorry James, as long as it's going to cost $41 billion a year to get and keep these people out, the math isn't going to be on your side.

The math is on my side because that is not the point I am making. I am not arguing forceful removal

The math is on my side. I have proven they cost us more than they bring in and you can't refute that so you try to change the argument.
 
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LogicChristian

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jamesrwright3 said:
The math is on my side because that is not the point I am making. I am not arguing forceful removal

The math is on my side. I have proven they cost us more than they bring in and you can't refute that so you try to change the argument.

So it's cheaper to just keep them here and not remove them forcefully than have them pay taxes and social security?

You haven't proven they cost more than they bring in because you haven't factored in the cheaper costs to the American consumer because of the goods and services they reduce the cost of. Any cost/benefit analysis of illegal immigration has to look beyond tax revenues and to how much economic benefit the United States derives from the lower cost of goods and services they bring.
 
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jamesrwright3

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So it's cheaper to just keep them here and not remove them forcefully than have them pay taxes and social security?

Yes, and remove them from social services and stop offering them benefits. Build an invisible fence.
Simply an administrative action.


You haven't proven they cost more than they bring in because you haven't factored in the cheaper costs to the American consumer because of the goods and services they reduce the cost of. Any cost/benefit analysis of illegal immigration has to look beyond tax revenues and to how much economic benefit the United States derives from the lower cost of goods and services they bring

There is no possible way that they reduce the overall costs by 30 billion dollars to the American consumer unless they were working for 1 dollar an hour which is not the case. ou cannot come up with any figures that puts their net benefit to the economy at anywhere close to the 30 billion they take out. I have proven they cost the taxpayers more than they bring in terms of social services/benefits/
 
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LogicChristian

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jamesrwright3

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LogicChristian said:
Harry Holzner's testimony to Congress, good stuff.

http://www.house.gov/ed_workforce/hearings/109th/fc/immigration111605/holzer.htm

I can't pull up the paper showing more exact measures of illegal immigrant economic benefits because the site I need is down, but I'm working on it.

I never said there were no benefits as far as lower costs
I simply said the savings do not approach the costs by any means and his testimony does not address that

Still looking for 30 billion in savings
 
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LogicChristian

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jamesrwright3 said:
Yes, and remove them from social services and stop offering them benefits. Build an invisible fence.
Simply an administrative action.

That's not going to make 12 million people leave.


jamesrwright3 said:
There is no possible way that they reduce the overall costs by 30 billion dollars to the American consumer unless they were working for 1 dollar an hour which is not the case. ou cannot come up with any figures that puts their net benefit to the economy at anywhere close to the 30 billion they take out. I have proven they cost the taxpayers more than they bring in terms of social services/benefits/

The net deficit you showed was $10 billion, not $30 billion.

You also haven't factored in any calculations for the cheaper goods and services that taxpayers receive from these people. By your math, I could show that in terms of how much the government gets versus receives, we should kick all poor citizens out of the country with them.

Have you actually done the calculations showing they would have to be working at $1 an hour, or did you just pull that out of nowhere? If you've done the calculation, could you show me the work?
 
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jamesrwright3

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That's not going to make 12 million people leave.

Although I would hope they would leave, it doesn't matter as long as they don't receive benefits
At least Mexico could do is reciprocate. I should be able to go down there without health insurance and have the government foot the bill, but you know what happens if I go down there and dont have the money to be treated, I don't get treated


The net deficit you showed was $10 billion, not $30 billion.

If you would read closer, the deficit for the Fed gov. was 10 billion and the deficit for California alone was 10 billion. The other border states have a combined deficit of abot 10 billion so it is about 30 billion


You also haven't factored in any calculations for the cheaper goods and services that taxpayers receive from these people. By your math, I could show that in terms of how much the government gets versus receives, we should kick all poor citizens out of the country with them.

I have seen no calculations which put their net contribution at anywhere near the 30 billion mark, and even if it was a wash, they are here illegally and shouldn't be rewarded



Have you actually done the calculations showing they would have to be working at $1 an hour, or did you just pull that out of nowhere? If you've done the calculation,
could you show me the work?[

I was simply using logic. The persons they are competing against for the most part are on the lower end of the pay scale. So it's not like there could be that much difference between an illegal immigrant or a low end wage earner citizens unless they were being paid under the able for a really low wage. If that is the case, that would go against your argument because they would totally off the books and not paying any taxes and still using our services
 
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OhhJim

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jamesrwright3 said:
...they would totally off the books and not paying any taxes and still using our services

Sales taxes

Gasoline taxes

Tolls

DMV registrations

Surely nobody can avoid paying ANY taxes? If they could, I'm sure right-wing militia groups would have been doing it for years!! ;)
 
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