Senate votes to give illegals Social Security

[LogicChristian]

No, they steal from the American taxpayer by coming across the border and costing us billions of dollars. We would just be getting some of that money back. Consider it an illegal immigrant tax.

Sorry jameswright, but this argument doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

By definition, the ones getting social security are the ones that AREN'T costing us billions of dollars because they're the ones that have been paying social security and income tax for 10 years or more.

How have the immigrants that have been paying taxes cost the American taxpayer billions? If anything, they've saved us billions through cheaper goods and services.

 

[jamesrwright3]

Sorry jameswright, but this argument doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

By definition, the ones getting social security are the ones that AREN'T costing us billions of dollars because they're the ones that have been paying social security and income tax for 10 years or more.

How have the immigrants that have been paying taxes cost the American taxpayer billions? If anything, they've saved us billions through cheaper goods and services.

So I guess you are in favor of giving incentives to those who break the law and making sure that more persons illegally cross the border. Give them benefits that they don't deserve..that will make them not want to cross.

Sorry your argument is the one that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

 

[LogicChristian]

So I guess you are in favor of giving incentives to those who break the law and making sure that more persons illegally cross the border. Give them benefits that they don't deserve..that will make them not want to cross.

The people are going to cross either way. You can decide to either have them help the government by paying into the system, or you can choose to have 12 million people live completely outside the system. The laws and our government have not reflected reality for long enough.

If crossing the border is these people's only crime, if all they wanted to do was make a better life for themselves and their family, then I say let them live as honestly as possible. What's wrong with someone wanting to pay the government taxes and getting services in return?

The entire reason these people have been breaking the law is that American immigration laws have absolutely no respect for geographic and economic reality, and haven't for some time. The entire reason we have 12 million illegal immigrants is that US law has stamped these people as "illegal" thus ignoring them while simultaneously failing to stop them from coming into the country or solving the economic issues that make these people want to come over in the first place. Maybe the problem isn't with the people, maybe the problem is with our immigration laws. Our laws have ignored millions of people and reality for long enough, it's time for those laws to change.

Sorry your argument is the one that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

As long as your side uses the complain that "these people are costing us billions by not paying taxes or social security" your argument will continue to be both senseless and hypocritical.

And sorry, but accusing these people of stealing billions while the whole debate rests on these people getting the benefits for which they've paid taxes for a decade really doesn't compute whatsoever. Are these people paying taxes? Or are they stealing from the government? Which is it?

 

[burrow_owl]

So in other words: yes, it's perfectly OK to steal their money, right?

The only thing not giving them SS will give them incentive to do is find a way to not pay taxes or SS.

I was wondering when someone honest would come along and point out the actual issue at stake.

Well done.

For the record, I don't think the theft of illegals' money is necessarily a bad or immoral disincentive to illegal immigration, but it's important that honest people discuss these things honestly.

(I don't mean you, jamesrwright - you got the issue, too; you just seem to think the language of theft prejudges the issue in advance, which is a fair position)

 

[jamesrwright3]

]The people are going to cross either way. You can decide to either have them help the government by paying into the system, or you can choose to have 12 million people live completely outside the system. The laws and our government have not reflected reality for long enough.

You can't separate out those who provided a net benefit to the USA to those which are a drain on our governments. You have to look at the problem as a whole. Illegal immigrants are causing a net DRAIN on the American taxpayer, especially that of the local government. The ability to collect benefits gives the illegals an incentive to cross the border. If they are crossing illegal, as you say, then they shouldn't expect to collect benefits even if they pay into the system. We are the only country which would entertain such madness. So if you look at the problem as a whole, them paying into the system and not getting anything back is not stealing, but helping to rectify the negative financial impacts of illegal immigration

If crossing the border is these people's only crime, if all they wanted to do was make a better life for themselves and their family, then I say let them live as honestly as possible. What's wrong with someone wanting to pay the government taxes and getting services in return?

You would have a better argument if the illegals didn't create net deficit for the taxpayer. As I have said before, you can't separate out those who are net gain to us to those who cause us a net negative. The problem is incenctives. We shouldn't provide any benefits, including health care services, to those who are here illegally. No other country would do the same thing. Just because we are the most power nation in the world doesn't mean we should get rid of logic and start adopting policies which end up biting us in the butt. Common sense should prevail.

The entire reason these people have been breaking the law is that American immigration laws have absolutely no respect for geographic and economic reality, and haven't for some time

No the primary problem they keep coming in is we refuse to enforce the borders, give them welfare, have the insane baby drop law which enables them to have a b line to citizenship, and we don't enforce the laws against employers which ends up hurting the job prospects of American citizens.

As long as your side uses the complain that "these people are costing us billions by not paying taxes or social security" your argument will continue to be both senseless and hypocritical.

Sorry, your argument is senseless.

Just show me one study that shows these people provide a net overall benefit, in terms of dollars for America. I have not seen a single study which indicates the credits outweight the debits or one where the credits even come close to balancing out the debits.

You are taking the position that public welfare benefits overall are not an incentive for illegal immigrants to cross the border and immigrants provide a net gain for the American economy and their prescence doesn't affect the work of American citizens who happen to be in the areas which have a large proportion of immigrants which is ludicrous.

And sorry, but accusing these people of stealing billions while the whole debate rests on these people getting the benefits for which they've paid taxes for a decade really doesn't compute whatsoever

Just answer me this, do any studies show they pay in more than they take out? The answer is no.They are stealing from the government, which is the American taxpayer, plain and simple.

 

[LogicChristian]

You can't separate out those who provided a net benefit to the USA to those which are a drain on our governments. You have to look at the problem as a whole. Illegal immigrants are causing a net DRAIN on the American taxpayer, especially that of the local government. The ability to collect benefits gives the illegals an incentive to cross the border. If they are crossing illegal, as you say, then they shouldn't expect to collect benefits even if they pay into the system. We are the only country which would entertain such madness. So if you look at the problem as a whole, them paying into the system and not getting anything back is not stealing, but helping to rectify the negative financial impacts of illegal immigration

Do you really think that denying illegal immigrants social security after 10 years is really going to keep people from coming into the country? The fact is, not giving them social security isn't going to noticably decrease the number coming in. Thus, it makes sense to get taxes out of the ones that are here.

You would have a better argument if the illegals didn't create net deficit for the taxpayer. As I have said before, you can't separate out those who are net gain to us to those who cause us a net negative. The problem is incenctives. We shouldn't provide any benefits, including health care services, to those who are here illegally. No other country would do the same thing. Just because we are the most power nation in the world doesn't mean we should get rid of logic and start adopting policies which end up biting us in the butt. Common sense should prevail.

Can you even prove that illegals cause a net deficit for the taxpayer. You should also factor in the vastly decreased cost of goods and services in some sectors due to the immigrants. If common sense prevailed, we wouldn't be complaining about these people not paying taxes while giving them every incentive possible not to pay them.

Also, do you think it's going to be cheaper to track down and deport 12 million people than it is to have them work in our country while many, if not most, pay taxes? If common sense were the basis of policy, we'd be allowing these people guest worker status and make all of them pay taxes instead of setting up laws that ignore these people and give them no legal status.

No the primary problem they keep coming in is we refuse to enforce the borders, give them welfare, have the insane baby drop law which enables them to have a b line to citizenship, and we don't enforce the laws against employers which ends up hurting the job prospects of American citizens.

Unemployment is under 5%. These people aren't hurting American job prospects much, if any.

The reason we don't enforce the border, have the baby drop law, and don't penalize employers is because of logistical, geographical, demographical, and economic reality. The fact is, the US government and taxpayers aren't willing to foot the bill for keeping all these people out and deporting the ones that are here, because it's considerably more expensive to keep them all out and ship the ones that are here back than it is to maintain the status quo. Unfortunately, laws don't reflect this reality.

Sorry, your argument is senseless.

Just show me one study that shows these people provide a net overall benefit, in terms of dollars for America. I have not seen a single study which indicates the credits outweight the debits or one where the credits even come close to balancing out the debits.

Sure thing.

http://usliberals.about.com/od/immigration/a/IllegalImmi.htm

Make sure you note the part about how illegals pay $7 billion into SS anually, and $1.5 billion into medicare, while most illegals never receive benefits.

This one is a little old, but the basic economic factors remain unchanged.

http://sorrel.humboldt.edu/~economic/econ104/immigrat/

These folks point out a lot of facts about illegal immigration and also refer to other research papers that demonstrate facts such as immigrants do not displace large numbers of native workers.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-imsum.html

You are taking the position that public welfare benefits overall are not an incentive for illegal immigrants to cross the border and immigrants provide a net gain for the American economy and their prescence doesn't affect the work of American citizens who happen to be in the areas which have a large proportion of immigrants which is ludicrous.

No, it's not ludicrous. The average illegal immigrant coming into this nation benefits little if any from American public welfare programs.

Their presence does affect the work of American workers, but usually only those with lower than a high school education. Also, unemployment in the USA has been low for years. It's pretty hard to make a case here (unlike say, Europe for instance) that illegals are displacing American workers on a massive scale. On the whole, illegals are working jobs that Americans simply wouldn't work for the same wages.

Just answer me this, do any studies show they pay in more than they take out? The answer is no.They are stealing from the government, which is the American taxpayer, plain and simple.

That's not the truth, plain and simple. Even with the center for immigration studies website down, I was able to find a few, and references to many, many more just by googling.

 

[Quantos]

I'm sure the oh, so conservative President Bush will veto this if it passes, like any good Republican. And if he doesn't, those who voted for him can look in the mirror...

Has he vetoed any thing in office yet ?

 

[jamesrwright3]

Do you really think that denying illegal immigrants social security after 10 years is really going to keep people from coming into the country? The fact is, not giving them social security isn't going to noticably decrease the number coming in. Thus, it makes sense to get taxes out of the ones that are here.

Denying them social welfare benefits, including healthcare, would definitely decrease the number of illegals coming across the border. I am not just talking about social security. Illegals should be denied all government assistance. No other country in the whole globe has such an assisine policy as giving illegal immigrants welfare benefits.

Can you even prove that illegals cause a net deficit for the taxpayer. You should also factor in the vastly decreased cost of goods and services in some sectors due to the immigrants. If common sense prevailed, we wouldn't be complaining about these people not paying taxes while giving them every incentive possible not to pay them.

Yes, every single study I have seen has indicated they cause a net deficit to the taxpayer.

Also, do you think it's going to be cheaper to track down and deport 12 million people than it is to have them work in our country while many, if not most, pay taxes? If common sense were the basis of policy, we'd be allowing these people guest worker status and make all of them pay taxes instead of setting up laws that ignore these people and give them no legal status.

No, deport those that we find, but don't offer any benefits to those who are here illegally. To offer someone social security who used a FAKE or FALSE social number is abosultely insane. Talk about encouraging fraud.
Common sense would make these people wait in line.

Unemployment is under 5%. These people aren't hurting American job prospects much, if any.

Not true, certain sectors have been hit hard by cheap labor, i.e. construction. I know this first hand from friends and family. The overall employment rate can be deceiving. You have to look it over sector by sector.

The reason we don't enforce the border, have the baby drop law, and don't penalize employers is because of logistical, geographical, demographical, and economic reality. The fact is, the US government and taxpayers aren't willing to foot the bill for keeping all these people out and deporting the ones that are here, because it's considerably more expensive to keep them all out and ship the ones that are here back than it is to maintain the status quo. Unfortunately, laws don't reflect this reality

.


No, it's easy, being born doesn't make anyone a citizen and you cut off the incentives for people to come here..i.e. social benefits and make it impossible for them to find a job without proper papers, i.e. penalize the employers heavily. A phyiscal wall helps. but an inivisible one is more essential.

Sure thing.

http://usliberals.about.com/od/immigration/a/IllegalImmi.htm

Make sure you note the part about how illegals pay $7 billion into SS anually, and $1.5 billion into medicare, while most illegals never receive benefits.

I am not talking about simple social security by itself.
I am talking about the overall cost of providing welfare benefits, including on the state level.
It is a net deficit by at least 30 billion dollars, probably more.

No, it's not ludicrous. The average illegal immigrant coming into this nation benefits little if any from American public welfare programs.

They benefit more than they take in, dollar for dollar. They suck out 3 dollars for every dollar they put in.

Their presence does affect the work of American workers, but usually only those with lower than a high school education. Also, unemployment in the USA has been low for years. It's pretty hard to make a case here (unlike say, Europe for instance) that illegals are displacing American workers on a massive scale. On the whole, illegals are working jobs that Americans simply wouldn't work for the same wages.

Construction is a legitimate trade. Those persons have a high school eduation and probably some post graduate training as well.
I know first hand certain areas such as drywalling were hit hard.

 

[stan1472]

So let's see......

I, a law-abiding natural born U.S. citizen who has paid into the SS system, will have to work until the day I die because SS won't be around when I retire.....

...and the idiots that run this country want to give the money to people who broke the law??????

Someone, PLEASE give me a one-way ticket out of this country.


EDIT: P.S....I don't generally like to call people "idiots", but right now I can't possibly hold back my anger about this.

Groundhog, I'm with you man. This government is messed up now. Something has to give. The levy is about to break.

Stan (A Law Abiding Citizen)

 

[LogicChristian]

Denying them social welfare benefits, including healthcare, would definitely decrease the number of illegals coming across the border. I am not just talking about social security. Illegals should be denied all government assistance. No other country in the whole globe has such an assisine policy as giving illegal immigrants welfare benefits.

Usually, the illegals receiving welfare benefits are receiving them in the name of their children. Many nations have as assinine a policy as providing welfare and food stamps to citizens. I also think illegals should get welfare benefits if they pay taxes into the system.

Yes, every single study I have seen has indicated they cause a net deficit to the taxpayer.

Well, I linked to a few that don't agree with you. Read up.

No, deport those that we find, but don't offer any benefits to those who are here illegally. To offer someone social security who used a FAKE or FALSE social number is abosultely insane. Talk about encouraging fraud.
Common sense would make these people wait in line.

OK, then wise up to the fact we can't deport them all, and allow the ones that are working here guest worker status and a real social security number.

The thing you're overlooking here is that the laws completely ignore reality, which is, there are 20 million people with no legal status here that our economy and government budget can't support throwing out.

Not true, certain sectors have been hit hard by cheap labor, i.e. construction. I know this first hand from friends and family. The overall employment rate can be deceiving. You have to look it over sector by sector.

But the reduction in costs of construction have helped many. My mom and dad wouldn't have been able to afford a house in Houston if the market there was anything like what it is up north. One of the thing that keeps housing costs low is immigrant labor.
.

No, it's easy, being born doesn't make anyone a citizen and you cut off the incentives for people to come here..i.e. social benefits and make it impossible for them to find a job without proper papers, i.e. penalize the employers heavily. A phyiscal wall helps. but an inivisible one is more essential.

So you support children being born into criminality? How does it make sense to tell a child who was born here that he or she is a criminal for living here?

I am not talking about simple social security by itself.
I am talking about the overall cost of providing welfare benefits, including on the state level.
It is a net deficit by at least 30 billion dollars, probably more.

Immigrants always pay state sales taxes. They often pay federal and state income taxes, and the ones that own property always pay state property taxes.

Also, there's the problem of whether it would be cheaper to give these people legal status and have them all pay taxes, or try to spend the money to hunt them down and get them all out.

They benefit more than they take in, dollar for dollar. They suck out 3 dollars for every dollar they put in.

Source?

Construction is a legitimate trade. Those persons have a high school eduation and probably some post graduate training as well.
I know first hand certain areas such as drywalling were hit hard.

But on the whole, the economy has benefitted from lower construction costs. Also, as I've seen from my own eyes in my travels, there are plenty of construction projects and areas of the nation that don't use immigrant labor. Illegals have certainly made inroads in construction, but they are by no means dominant.

It's also worth noting that immigrants, including illegals, have been working construction jobs in this nation for well over a century.

 

[CaDan]

So I guess you are in favor of giving incentives to those who break the law and making sure that more persons illegally cross the border. Give them benefits that they don't deserve..that will make them not want to cross.

Sorry your argument is the one that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Benefits they don't deserve?

Funny, I heard of this strange religion that says God gives out benefits to those who don't deserve it.

 

[LogicChristian]

Perhaps they could pay that tax by working without pay for several years picking cotton.

They could live in little shacks and sing their charming "spiritual" songs while fryin' up cornpone and greens.

Old times there are not forgotten . . . .

Hey, "Social Security Tax" for benefits you're never going to see, a few years of your life, it's all good, right?

 

[Letalis]

Or they could just go back to where they come from.

Benefits they don't deserve?

Funny, I heard of this strange religion that says God gives out benefits to those who don't deserve it.

America isn't God, nor should it try to be.

 

[CaDan]

No, deport those that we find, but don't offer any benefits to those who are here illegally. To offer someone social security who used a FAKE or FALSE social number is abosultely insane. Talk about encouraging fraud.
Common sense would make these people wait in line.

Where's the fraud except in rhetoric? I prosecute civil fraud cases--what you are describing is not fraud. What happens is that undocumented people get fake ID's so they can work and pay taxes and FICA. FICA which they may well never collect.

Not true, certain sectors have been hit hard by cheap labor, i.e. construction. I know this first hand from friends and family. The overall employment rate can be deceiving. You have to look it over sector by sector.

There are these things called unions that advocate for decent wages. I understand that at one time they had a lot of power in the trades to help the working man. But some politicians decided they'd work with industry to break the unions. Sad, sad story.

If the cognitive dissonance becomes too intense, well, that's not my fault.

No, it's easy, being born doesn't make anyone a citizen and you cut off the incentives for people to come here..i.e. social benefits and make it impossible for them to find a job without proper papers, i.e. penalize the employers heavily. A phyiscal wall helps. but an inivisible one is more essential.

As long as we're punting the Fourteenth Amendment, let's get rid of that pesky Thirteenth, too.

I could continue, but why bother.

 

[LogicChristian]

Or they could just go back to where they come from.

They won't though, because even if you do that, our nation is still better for them and their families than Mexico or other Latin American nations. So they stay here, they just pay taxes for services they can't have, and in essence, be robbed.

 

[Letalis]

They won't though, because even if you do that, our nation is still better for them and their families than Mexico or other Latin American nations. So they stay here, they just pay taxes for services they can't have, and in essence, be robbed.

Is it robbing them when they shouldn't have that money in the first place? Wasn't that money obtained illegally?

 

[JustOneWay]

Is it robbing them when they shouldn't have that money in the first place? Wasn't that money obtained illegally?

Most of the illegals worked and contributed to SS. The legally earned the money. They illegally crossed the border.

There are many US citizens that break laws. I don't see anybody taking their social security funds away.

 

[jamesrwright3]

Where's the fraud except in rhetoric? I prosecute civil fraud cases--what you are describing is not fraud. What happens is that undocumented people get fake ID's so they can work and pay taxes and FICA. FICA which they may well never collect.

So it is legal to go out and get a fake social security card and pass that off to an employer? Maybe I will go try and do that tomorrow and then report myself to the authorities.

There are these things called unions that advocate for decent wages. I understand that at one time they had a lot of power in the trades to help the working man. But some politicians decided they'd work with industry to break the unions. Sad, sad story

.

You mean those things called unions which nearly bankrupted our auto industry by paying outlandish wages and benefits which were brought upon by threats from the unions.

As long as we're punting the Fourteenth Amendment, let's get rid of that pesky Thirteenth, too.

Both of those amendments apply to citizens or at least at the very minimum, people that are supposed to be here. Illegal immigrants do not qualify for equal protection under the law because they are here illegally.


I could continue, but why bother.[/quote]

 

[jamesrwright3]

Benefits they don't deserve?

Funny, I heard of this strange religion that says God gives out benefits to those who don't deserve it.

Yeah but the religion also says "thall shall not steal" and people are required to make reparation if they unlawfully take something from another person. So if Mexico sends us a check for 30 billion per year to make up for the amount we are losing, I am fine with that.

 

[Ceris]

MOD HAT ON



Knock it off.




MOD HAT OFF