Sen. Patrick Leahy To Preside Over Trump's Senate Impeachment Trial

[civilwarbuff]

Still not sure why it seems everyone on the left is so dead set against investigating claims of vote fraud. It would seem to be in everyone's interest to prove/disprove that any such thing happened. So once more I will ask this question of those on the left: If you are so sure there was no vote fraud/wrong doing why be so dead set against opening an investigation to demonstrate that? Would your own party not benefit from showing there is 'no there there'?.....Thereby discrediting the right for years to come?

 

[Valletta]

It's evidence if a court accepts them. Provide a link where a court accepted them and we can go from there. Until then? No matter how many times you make the claim, they still aren't evidence.
tulc(finishing the last cup of coffee for today)

It's like I tell atheists, God exists whether you believe in Him or not.

 

[tulc]

Still not sure why it seems everyone on the left is so dead set against investigating claims of vote fraud. It would seem to be in everyone's interest to prove/disprove that any such thing happened. So once more I will ask this question of those on the left: If you are so sure there was no vote fraud/wrong doing why be so dead set against opening an investigation to demonstrate that? Would your own party not benefit from showing there is 'no there there'?

Because if there's one thing history teaches us: investigating means nothing to Republicans. Look no further than 8 Benghazi investigations that proved the same thing the 8th times as the first time. Or the fact that none of the investigations that have happened already over this election have shown nothing wrong. If you look at the "massive voter fraud!" claims of every election Trump has been a part of in his brief political career not one has shown significant fraud and now suddenly this one is going to be different? And I can predict the outcome of what this waste of money investigation will produce: The instant the investigation got over and if it didn't show there was "massive voter fraud" they would demand another investigation. Because it's never been about "finding the truth!" it's ALWAYS about showing everyone how "they're the real victim here!". So far the only actual "evidence of massive voter fraud" to Trump's supporters is that they can't believe that Trump lost the election. That's what all the hype is really all about.

.....Thereby discrediting the right for years to come?

...you don't think the whole "we attacked the Capitol and took selfies of ourselves while we did it!" hasn't already done that?
tulc(is just wondering)

 

[tulc]

It's like I tell atheists, God exists whether you believe in Him or not.

...so...the "massive voter fraud" is a matter of faith, no proof is necessary?
tulc(isn't sure that argument is appropriate in this situation)

 

[JimR-OCDS]

tulc, the courts have not gotten to the evidentiary stage where affidavits are presented. Why? Because the courts have continued to deny hearings based on their rulings that plaintiffs do not have 'standing' to sue (or other procedural grounds rather than lack of evidence). Until then Valletta is right: affidavits are admissible as evidence unless a court rules otherwise (your denial of that fact notwithstanding). So far, no court has ruled against the affidavits.

Actually it's Trump's own lawyers who didn't present evidence and the opposition had the very officials who are in charge of State Elections to made the claims that there was no fraud or manipulation so that Trump would lose.

 

[civilwarbuff]

So far the only actual "evidence of massive voter fraud" to Trump's supporters is that they can't believe that Trump lost the election. That's what all the hype is really all about.

Then why be so fearful of investigating their claims?

...you don't think the whole "we attacked the Capitol and took selfies of ourselves while we did it!" hasn't already done that?

Not so long as the doubt remains about vote fraud.....that is why the investigations should go forward. Because if they are right then they did the right thing. Prove them wrong.

 

[civilwarbuff]

the "massive voter fraud" is a matter of faith, no proof is necessary?

That is why we keep wanting an investigation tulc. Prove there was no fraud.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Actually it's Trump's own lawyers who didn't present evidence

They did not get a chance; the suits never moved to that point.

 

[tulc]

Then why be so fearful of investigating their claims?

Because they've been investigated, and now they want another investigation because the other investigations didn't show the "massive voter fraud" that Republicans claim. So why bother? It's not like the Republicans are interested in finding out the facts or the truth. all they want is Trump back in office.

Not so long as the doubt remains about vote fraud.....that is why the investigations should go forward.

Please, no one has doubts that the election was the most secure in history, the people crying "investigate!!!" the loudest already know Trump lost, they're simply making money hand over fist now, the whole "massive voter fraud!" is just the latest scam to get money from their supporters.

Because if they are right then they did the right thing.

Republicans leading the charge over this don't care about the right thing, they care about making money.

Prove them wrong.

They've already been proven wrong. Investigating again wont change their minds, it's now become a matter of faith, divorced from facts or truth. They "know" there was "massive voter fraud" because they "believe" Trump couldn't have lost otherwise.
tulc(so why bother?)

 

[tulc]

That is why we keep wanting an investigation tulc. Prove there was no fraud.

Sorry, it's already been proven there wasn't. They simply won't believe what they don't want to believe.
tulc(facts just get in the way)

 

[Valletta]

Because they've been investigated, and now they want another investigation because the other investigations didn't show the "massive voter fraud" that Republicans claim. So why bother? It's not like the Republicans are interested in finding out the facts or the truth. all they want is Trump back in office.



Please, no one has doubts that the election was the most secure in history, the people crying "investigate!!!" the loudest already know Trump lost, they're simply making money hand over fist now, the whole "massive voter fraud!" is just the latest scam to get money from their supporters.


Republicans leading the charge over this don't care about the right thing, they care about making money.



They've already been proven wrong. Investigating again wont change their minds, it's now become a matter of faith, divorced from facts or truth. They "know" there was "massive voter fraud" because they "believe" Trump couldn't have lost otherwise.
tulc(so why bother?)

I know of no other election that has come close to the number of signed sworn complaints than this election. Democrat election workers have lawyered up and refused to answer questions, only one state has allowed a minimal examination of election machines, and in that examination the key log for this election is missing (the old logs from old elections were still there). So there has not yet been more than a fractional examination nor answers from so many of the employees involved in potential wrongdoing. The claim that it has all been investigated is a hoax, a con, just like the three year Russian collusion hoax. Make the copies of the election ballots public along with the election logs. Have the courage to let the people see for themselves.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Because they've been investigated, and now they want another investigation because the other investigations didn't show the "massive voter fraud" that Republicans claim.

What 'investigation'?....where were the hears?.....what witnesses testified?.....I musta missed the whole thing.....LOL

Please, no one has doubts that the election was the most secure in history, the people crying "investigate!!!

Plenty of people have doubts that is why there needs to be an investigation. Why be so afraid of it?

They've already been proven wrong.

How have they been 'proven' wrong? By which investigation has this happened?.....Which hearings?.....What witnesses?.....c'mon tulc open your eyes and don't fear what you may see.

 

[tulc]

(snip) Plenty of people have doubts

no one who's interested in the truth have "doubts", only people who will never believe the investigation unless it confirms what they really REALLY want the result to be.

that is why there needs to be an investigation.

No, there really isn't.

Why be so afraid of it? (snip)

Not afraid of it, just amused that people think this new "birther movement" is any less goofy than the first one was.
tulc(knows a grift when he sees one, and this is classic Trump grift)

 

[Valletta]

no one who's interested in the truth have "doubts", only people who will never believe the investigation unless it confirms what they really REALLY want the result to be.


No, there really isn't.


Not afraid of it, just amused that people think this new "birther movement" is any less goofy than the first one was.
tulc(knows a grift when he sees one, and this is classic Trump grift)

You haven't bothered to look at the affidavits, have you? I have a lot of experience dealing with government corruption and have spoken with numerous whistleblowers. The government conceals information because they are afraid of how the people might react if they learn the truth. That is why information is censored and that is why speech is censored.

 

[tulc]

You haven't bothered to look at the affidavits, have you?

...how do you know?

I have a lot of experience dealing with government corruption and have spoken with numerous whistleblowers.

Cool story...got any proof?

The government conceals information because they are afraid of how the people might react if they learn the truth.

You know what else "conceals information"? No information there to be concealed. In fact? That would appear to be what this whole "massive voter fraud" case appears to be based on: "The fact we can't find any information/proof about the massive voter fraud we believe happened is all the proof we need it happened!!" could well be the unofficial slogan of this whole "massive voter fraud!!" that no court has seen any evidence of.

That is why information is censored

Or again, it's simply a myth people tell themselves. Personally? I'm thinking the "telling themselves the myth." is the most likely reason there's no evidence.

and that is why speech is censored.

I'm curious...how is it possible to have a couple thousand threads, posts, articles news stories all about this subject and people still want to claim "We're being censored everywhere!!"? Or is this just one more example of the constant refrain we've been hearing for the last four years whenever Trump is involved: "WE'RE THE REAL VICTIMS HERE!!" (tm).
tulc(is just curious)

 

[Valletta]

...how do you know?

You know what else "conceals information"? No information there to be concealed. In fact? That would appear to be what this whole "massive voter fraud" case appears to be based on: "The fact we can't find any information/proof about the massive voter fraud we believe happened is all the proof we need it happened!!" could well be the unofficial slogan of this whole "massive voter fraud!!" that no court has seen any evidence of.


Or again, it's simply a myth people tell themselves. Personally? I'm thinking the "telling themselves the myth." is the most likely reason there's no evidence.

In fact there is extensive election information that is being concealed, withheld from the public, specifically electronic copies of the ballots and logs.

 

[tulc]

In fact there is extensive election information that is being concealed, withheld from the public, specifically electronic copies of the ballots and logs.

and yet you apparently "know" all about it? That's...handy...
tulc(is going to need more coffee soon)

 

[civilwarbuff]

no one who's interested in the truth have "doubts"

Your opinion....not fact.

No, there really isn't.

Why are you so fearful of an investigation tulc?.....maybe something out there that you would rather not know?.....

Not afraid of it,

Yes tulc, you are otherwise you would want an investigation to shut up the 'other side' once and for all. Or maybe you are using the Mueller investigation as a basis for your argument: no evidence of collusion was found, wild accusations and manufactured evidence (Steele dossier) were presented and yet the left continues to deny there was no collusion? If that is the pattern your resistance is based on you may be on to something there.

 

[tulc]

Your opinion....not fact.

...isn't all of this about peoples opinions? Since there's no actual evidence been offered in support of the myth of "massive voter fraud"

Why are you so fearful of an investigation tulc?
It's cute you keep repeating this same claim, is this the new "Republican talking point"? Claim people are "why are you afraid to investigate?!" When the reality is people know Republicans don't pay any attention to an investigation that doesn't prove what they want to be proved, so why bother with something that's just going to be ignored?

.....maybe something out there that you would rather not know?.....

More the things I do know. Republican history of claiming to "we need to investigate!!" only to keep claiming the need to investigate because the previous investigation didn't prove what they wanted to be proven. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Yes tulc, you are otherwise you would want an investigation to shut up the 'other side' once and for all. (snip)

If history has shown us anything, it's that Republicans don't have any interest in what's discovered in an investigation. If they did, we wouldn't have had 8 different investigations of Benghazi that came to the same conclusion the 8th time as it did the 7 other times. Or the multiple "massive voter fraud!" investigations that haven't actually ever found "massive voter fraud!". But here they are again, claiming "massive voter fraud!! let's investigate!!". so, sorry, I'm unwilling to pretend that this one would be the "one" that silences all debate. Because it wouldn't.
tulc(is going to need more coffee soon)

 

[Job 33:6]

Well, les see;

“Statistically impossible to have lost the 2020 Election,” Trump, a Republican, tweeted on Dec. 20. “Big protest in DC on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!”

“We’re going to walk down to the Capitol and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators and Congressmen and women,” Trump told the crowd, speaking with the White House as a backdrop.

“We will never give up, we will never concede,” Trump said, delighting the crowd by calling Democratic victories the product of what he called “explosions of B**.”

This and Trump's constant claim that the election was stolen and that he had actually won by a landslide.

Yeah, he incited the riot, no two ways about it

To add to this:

"with proof of such acts at a level not seen before, The Democratic senators would consider it an act of war and fight to the death" -trump tweet, referring to the election, prior to the riots.

From his speech:

"We will never give up. We will never concede, it doesn't happen. You don't concede when there's theft involved. Our country has had enough we will not take it anymore, we will stop the steal"

"And we fight. We fight like hell, and if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore."

"We are going to have somebody in there that should not be in there and our country will be destroyed, And we are not going to stand for that"



Donald Trump: fight like hell, fight to the death, don't concede, stop the steal.

All the while peddling an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory.

Heck, even guys arrested after the riots have pinned it on Trump. Read the qanon shamans testimony. He said plenty about being driven by trump's speech. It's no secret.

It's as if Donald Trump forgot who his supporters were and how willing they were to take his words literally. But to be fair, democrats have been waiting for the riots for months, anticipating it. Because that's just the thing trump's been calling for all along.