Self-worship in the Church?

[timewerx]

Is anyone bothered at all, the object of many praise and worship songs today is about how Jesus saved ME? Or a battle cry for the Lord to deliver us OUR victory?

While we do absolutely nothing!

Have we made false gods and idols of ourselves and turned God and Jesus into our faithful servants while we drink with drunkards and conduct ourselves in every way as unbelievers do?

Does any Christian even know that Jesus needs help too and but we chose not to help because we'd rather do our worldly stuff than help Jesus. It's all there in the Bible.

I'm not really keen on sharing those verses at the moment. I may be persuaded later on. Do your homework please.

This is why I prefer the older worship songs. More about the Lord and less about self.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

I don't listen to much modern gospel music. I think I know where you're coming from, but I'd need an example because there's nothing wrong with glorifying what God has done for us. Exodus 15 which recounts the Song of Moses is glorifying God and praising Him for deliverance and working miracles.

Also what do you mean by Jesus needs our help? God doesn't need us nor does he need our help for any reason, God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. [Matt 3:9] He doesn't need humans; He is God and has the whole universe at his disposal.

 

[WolfGate]

Is anyone bothered at all, the object of many praise and worship songs today is about how Jesus saved ME? Or a battle cry for the Lord to deliver us OUR victory?

While we do absolutely nothing!

Have we made false gods and idols of ourselves and turned God and Jesus into our faithful servants while we drink with drunkards and conduct ourselves in every way as unbelievers do?

Does any Christian even know that Jesus needs help too and but we chose not to help because we'd rather do our worldly stuff than help Jesus. It's all there in the Bible.

I'm not really keen on sharing those verses at the moment. I may be persuaded later on. Do your homework please.

This is why I prefer the older worship songs. More about the Lord and less about self.

If those were the only worship songs out there, then I would see a problem. God should be praised in a multitude of areas, including given thanks for the gift of grace through His son (saving us) and for bringing the victory to come when Christ returns. Some songs are written from a first person viewpoint certainly, but not all. Additionally, there are also songs about the other areas of praise. From songs of pure praise (Great are You Lord, Way Maker) to songs about as believers faithfully trusting God to direct our lives (Same God) to songs of worshipful obedience (Christ Be Magnified) to songs designed to share the gospel (Man of Sorrows) - pretty much every facet of Praise and Worship can be found in songs recently written. So, I guess I don't agree with the premise of your post and have had no problem finding songs to sing that cover all aspects of P&W.

Finally, I also don't agree that Jesus "needs" us to do anything. God is both omnipotent and omniscient. We have been commanded to do certain things, but surely not because he "needs" us to do so.

 

[timewerx]

I don't listen to much modern gospel music. I think I know where you're coming from, but I'd need an example because there's nothing wrong with glorifying what God has done for us. Exodus 15 which recounts the Song of Moses is glorifying God and praising Him for deliverance and working miracles.

Also what do you mean by Jesus needs our help? God doesn't need us nor does he need our help for any reason, God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. [Matt 3:9] He doesn't need humans; He is God and has the whole universe at his disposal.

It's there and it's an actual verse. But I won't mention it. Not this time.

This is a sign the church is longer feeding the Lord's children. It has strayed from the truth and drinking with the drunkards.

You can't love both the world and the Lord. You will love one and hate the other. If you love the world, you won't have anything left for the Lord. You'll also find this in the Bible but I won't mention the verses yet.

This isn't a situation where you love the world but love the Lord a million times or infinitely more. Such philosophy comes from false teachings from from the devil wanting you to immerse yourself in world, to indulge yourself with many worldly pleasures and still convince yourself that you love the Lord.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

It's there and it's an actual verse. But I won't mention it. Not this time.

I don't play this game. Mention it and prove your point, or you have no point to prove, and this thread is a waste of time.

 

[timewerx]

Finally, I also don't agree that Jesus "needs" us to do anything. God is both omnipotent and omniscient. We have been commanded to do certain things, but surely not because he "needs" us to do so.

The Lord really do need our help.

Because those who will not help the Lord is not saved / never saved in the first place.

If anyone's hearing this for the first time or if it sounds too incredible, take comfort in the fact, this is in the Bible from Christ Himself.

 

[timewerx]

I don't play this game. Mention it and prove your point, or you have no point to prove, and this thread is a waste of time.

This is not a game. I'll mention it later, but first, I need to see if Christians are actually fed the right stuff.

To see if the church is still doing its job and so far, I see it has failed at it.

Jesus may have given a prophecy within the Bible that the very movement He began with Apostle Peter is going to fail.

And as history and human nature have always proven, it is always majority that succumbs to the deceptions of Satan. It was the majority that put Jesus to the cross. If Jesus walks among us unannounced and begins preaching in the streets, I'd bet the majority will not recognize Him and still end up hating Him. Jesus is like a magnet for hate, even Jesus said it Himself.

The "Jesus" most people love and recognize is a conjured up character. It's not the same Jesus in the Bible.

 

[WolfGate]

The Lord really do need our help.

Because those who will not help the Lord is not saved / never saved in the first place.

He does not need our help. The bible is filled with references to His omnipotence. Both being all powerful and all knowing and needing something from us cannot exist together. He does, however, most notably in Matthew 28, ask us to be a part of His plan and provide help. I believe you are confusing a “need” with a “desire”.

This is not a game. I'll mention it later, but first, I need to see if Christians are actually fed the right stuff.

To see if the church is still doing its job and so far, I see it has failed at it.

Speaking of "need", you don't "need" to see anything about other Christians. You are responsible for your own choices in following God. You are not responsible for the rest of us. And you are playing games by not supporting your statement. If you have some teaching that overcomes all the evidence of God's omnipotence and shows that He cannot do what He has promised to do without our help, it’s up to you to show that.

 

[Blade]

Is anyone bothered at all, the object of many praise and worship songs today is about how Jesus saved ME? Or a battle cry for the Lord to deliver us OUR victory?

While we do absolutely nothing!

Have we made false gods and idols of ourselves and turned God and Jesus into our faithful servants while we drink with drunkards and conduct ourselves in every way as unbelievers do?

Does any Christian even know that Jesus needs help too and but we chose not to help because we'd rather do our worldly stuff than help Jesus. It's all there in the Bible.

I'm not really keen on sharing those verses at the moment. I may be persuaded later on. Do your homework please.

This is why I prefer the older worship songs. More about the Lord and less about self.

Well to say all this and not use any scripture then its what? "Does any Christian even know that Jesus needs help too" this here is not true the fact that written in Psa, 2kings, Acts that God does not need anything. See He chooses to use us but He can do all this with out us. Its us that always ever moment every day need Him. God said were blessed when we give. God always gives.. He came to give you life and give it more boundenly.

No offense but its not what other do or don't do its what you do. See its also written I am not here to please man and I don't answer to any man. So I can sing new songs old songs and.. its to HIM. See this is what Christ will say " "Lord, what about him?" Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."" Yeah He will point right back at us. They please the Father..

 

[timewerx]

He does not need our help. The bible is filled with references to His omnipotence. Both being all powerful and all knowing and needing something from us cannot exist together. He does, however, most notably in Matthew 28, ask us to be a part of His plan and provide help. I believe you are confusing a “need” with a “desire”.


Speaking of "need", you don't "need" to see anything about other Christians. You are responsible for your own choices in following God. You are not responsible for the rest of us. And you are playing games by not supporting your statement. If you have some teaching that overcomes all the evidence of God's omnipotence and shows that He cannot do what He has promised to do without our help, it’s up to you to show that.

It is there in the Bible.

Even if it is a "desire" or want, If Jesus desire you to do 5 things for Him but you refuse to do all of them. Would it make any difference if it's a need or desire or want?

I'm not talking about obeying the laws nor commandments. It's all mentioned in the verses I'm not going to reveal yet.

On the other hand, we tend to do what the devil wants by default. We're all born to this corrupt world, the devil's domain so that's not a surprise.

It is a serious dilemma if we choose to do all the things the devil wants us to do and wants to have no part in doing what Jesus wants us or need us to do for Him. It makes us a follower of Satan.

And what makes Satan so tricky is that many of the things he wants us to do doesn't look evil. It tricks even churches thinking they're okay to do that it's okay to love these thing because it doesn't look evil at all in plain sight. And this is the problem with many Christians, the can be too lazy to look deeper. Let's just play golf than waste time digging through stuff. It shows they love the world more than the Lord.

It's all said in the Bible. If you don't know that's because your church is not feeding you right.

 

[WolfGate]

It is there in the Bible.

Even if it is a "desire" or want, If Jesus desire you to do 5 things for Him but you refuse to do all of them. Would it make any difference if it's a need or desire or want?

I'm not talking about obeying the laws nor commandments. It's all mentioned in the verses I'm not going to reveal yet.

On the other hand, we tend to do what the devil wants by default. We're all born to this corrupt world, the devil's domain so that's not a surprise.

It is a serious dilemma if we choose to do all the things the devil wants us to do and wants to have no part in doing what Jesus wants us or need us to do for Him. It makes us a follower of Satan.

And what makes Satan so tricky is that many of the things he wants us to do doesn't look evil. It tricks even churches thinking they're okay to do that it's okay to love these thing because it doesn't look evil at all in plain sight. And this is the problem with many Christians, the can be too lazy to look deeper. Let's just play golf than waste time digging through stuff. It shows they love the world more than the Lord.

It's all said in the Bible. If you don't know that's because your church is not feeding you right.

You presented a heresy and when questioned to support it, you just brushed it off in this post as a matter of semantics. You then presented more high level teasers (which are so broad as to be elementary level) about a teaching you have with no specifics and no verses to provide any detail into this error you believe others are falling into. You then claim churches are in error if we don’t know what you are talking about. This whole thread is meaningless.

 

[Agra man]

This is not a game. I'll mention it later, but first, I need to see if Christians are actually fed the right stuff.

To see if the church is still doing its job and so far, I see it has failed at it.

Jesus may have given a prophecy within the Bible that the very movement He began with Apostle Peter is going to fail.

And as history and human nature have always proven, it is always majority that succumbs to the deceptions of Satan. It was the majority that put Jesus to the cross. If Jesus walks among us unannounced and begins preaching in the streets, I'd bet the majority will not recognize Him and still end up hating Him. Jesus is like a magnet for hate, even Jesus said it Himself.

The "Jesus" most people love and recognize is a conjured up character. It's not the same Jesus in the Bible.

I understand your frustration it wasn't long ago I was where you are. Everyone seems to see the body of Christ through rose lenses you would be shocked the amount of Christians I have spoken to who seem to think this is how things are everyone complains about the church about the world about the hurting and the lost but most after church just go about their daily lives no one does anything about it everyone just accepts the system.

I went against the flow I called them out and I called for them to stop playing games to stop being double minded to remember who we are what we are called to be and do we are the woprkers the seed planters we are to go forr the kjingdom and bring it here and people say the kingdom is here and in us and I say to them look around you does this seem like the kingdom to you?

But most will not recieve it most will not take into consideration the dire state we as the church have become there is no power there is no reaching the lost there is no showing the proof of who our God is and why is that? Because we ahve become a comfortable instead of bringing the lost to church Christians have told me the church is for the believers not the lost I mean what?

 

[Strong in Him]

but first, I need to see if Christians are actually fed the right stuff.

Sorry, but if you're saying, "there is a verse in the Bible that proves my point but I'm not going to tell you what it is", that is playing a game.

but first, I need to see if Christians are actually fed the right stuff.

Why do you need to see that?

To see if the church is still doing its job

Again, why?

Jesus may have given a prophecy within the Bible that the very movement He began with Apostle Peter is going to fail.

But he didn't.
He said that the gates of hell will never prevail against it. The church is the bride of Christ - and we have already been told of the wedding feast.

It was the majority that put Jesus to the cross.

Which was God's will and plan and not a deception of Satan.

The "Jesus" most people love and recognize is a conjured up character. It's not the same Jesus in the Bible.

Evidence?

And to answer the OP, worship songs may mention, or feature "me" - because personal testimony is very powerful.
Jesus healed people and then said "go and tell what the Lord has done for you "

 

[OldAbramBrown]

If those were the only worship songs out there, then I would see a problem ... he "needs" us to do so.

- a great many of them are not even singable, they are mere concert pieces in the interest of their publishers
- above all he needs us to supplicate for the integrity of others in a contingent universe, that is why He ascended to distribute gifts unvetoed

 

[OldAbramBrown]

I don't play this game. Mention it and prove your point, or you have no point to prove, and this thread is a waste of time.

Though the OP reprehensibly concealed an agenda it in itself isn't a waste of time because I have offered some answers in one of the praise and worship threads (and I'm not "attempting to cross post"):

The worship of our God is to not stunt the growth of our fellow adopted orphans and widows in Father's prosperous family firm (Proverbs 31: 10-31, parables of Jesus)

The praise of our God is to show Him and each other we know He is the one to go shopping from without price (Isaiah 55, 58, 61, James). That is why I believe in shopping list prayer.

I believe in Cafeteria Christianity: eat everything on the menu - keep coming back.

Liturgically, a church organisation traditionally sought to organise Scripture readings (more than one) for all to receive. They then tried to provide a sermon through a person they considered (in good will) able to give one. The two elements, Scripture and sermon, were separate. The words of the sermon giver were not equal to the words of God.

A church "service" is called thus because we are serving God by serving each other with these things and on the same occasion joining our prayers together and raising each others' spirits with a hymn. "Noise" referred to the quality of a report. A sad report reaches our God from His people if they don't hold the attitudes described in the meaning of Holy Scripture.

We are able to live worshipfully and praising of Him in between joint / communal "service" times also, by continual talking with Him and supplicating for others' integrity in a contingent universe.

There is nothing wrong with setting each other Bible meaning quizzes if that is honestly what we are doing. We should try it more often!

 

[OldAbramBrown]

This is not a game. I'll mention it later, but first, I need to see if Christians are actually fed the right stuff.

To see if the church is still doing its job and so far, I see it has failed at it.

Jesus may have given a prophecy within the Bible that the very movement He began with Apostle Peter is going to fail.

And as history and human nature have always proven, it is always majority that succumbs to the deceptions of Satan. It was the majority that put Jesus to the cross. If Jesus walks among us unannounced and begins preaching in the streets, I'd bet the majority will not recognize Him and still end up hating Him. Jesus is like a magnet for hate, even Jesus said it Himself.

The "Jesus" most people love and recognize is a conjured up character. It's not the same Jesus in the Bible.

Your tone of superiority could be avoided if we substitute the phrase "many sections of".

There are in any case individuals who share insights with their peers, ahead of what church authorities have caught up with.

And everything we can believe was believed by more apostles including (not only) Peter, and by prophets too.

Jesus believed the church in general would progress in fits and starts, sections losing and regaining.

Please don't demean those whom you leave despairing of whether you are with us who already believe, or not. Because you will keep coming across those who believe.

What is your main point: to be relieved that some of us believe, or to disbelieve us as inconvenient to your thesis that we don't?

I believe in quizzes but the attitude should not be to wrongfoot.

As for the streets, you look as if you are muddling up believers and genuine non-believers. Holy Scripture meanings have to come to and through believers.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

He does not need our help.

Of course not. But he does empower us. That is part of the Good News.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

... I'm not talking about obeying the laws nor commandments ...

But the things in my responses 14, 15 and 16 ARE in the laws and commandments.

In the power of Holy Spirit we shall fulfil those. This tended not to happen properly when and if and because teaching was indistinct.

Is it in Ezekiel: In that day men shall not say "know the Lord" (from an organisation to its clientele), they shall know Him (good enough to mutually share insights).

 

[OldAbramBrown]

Jesus may have given a prophecy within the Bible that the very movement He began with Apostle Peter is going to fail.

In any event it is through them in successive generations that the effort to publish Holy Scriptures took effect, I for one am grateful for that. We always needed and always shall need to meditate and recall all their meanings.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

... He said that the gates of hell will never prevail against it. The church is the bride of Christ - and we have already been told of the wedding feast.

Which was God's will and plan and not a deception of Satan ... 1

And to answer the OP, worship songs may mention, or feature "me" - because personal testimony is very powerful. Jesus healed people and then said "go and tell what the Lord has done for you" 2

1 So true - in supplicating for others' integrity, which is true worship.
2 This is so true! But not packaged as publishers' product (and often unsingable).

In the shorthand parlance of St Paul these equate:

- Christ and Him Crucified
- If He be not risen we are the most wretched of creatures
- Ascending he distributed gifts unvetoed