Self Defense and Orthodoxy

[MariaRegina]

Recently I was asked a question about self defense:

One thing I still can't understand about the Orthodox position on self-defense is in a situation like this: Let's say that a man protecting his family kills a burglar in his house, but a few seconds after he has killed the bad guy, another bad guy comes and kills him. The good guy has committed a sin, because he has killed someone. But at the same time, he puts his eternal life at risk. So how does one know whether or not to kill the bad guy, when the good guy knows he could very easily die before repenting?

The young person also referred to this article on the oca website:

QUESTION:

What about the Orthodox relation to war? The fact that the Orthodox have blessed the military seems to contradict your entire position, not to mention the teaching of Jesus about non-violence.


ANSWER:

On the contrary, we would hope that the Orthodox position relative to the military supports what we have already discussed.

Christ taught that perfection requires the love of enemies and the absolute renunciation of resisting evil by evil. Thus if a man will be perfect he will renounce the relative values of this world totally and will not participate in any act which is morally ambiguous. In this way, for example, the Church forbids the bearing of arms to its clergy and does not allow a man to continue in the ministry who has shed blood, theoretically even in an accidental way!

However, the Orthodox Church follows Christ and the apostles in teaching that the relative and morally ambiguous life of this world requires the existence of some form of human government which has the right and even the duty to "wield the sword" for the punishment of evil.

In the Gospels, for example, we do not find Christ or John the Baptist of the apostles commanding the soldiers which they met to cease being soldiers. Even the early Christians bore the arms of the pagan Roman state for the welfare of society in this world.

But still, if a man will be perfect and give his life totally to Christ, he will of necessity renounce military service as well as any political service which always and of necessity is involved with relativistic values and greater and lesser evils and goods. Such a man will also renounce his possessions and follow Christ totally and in everything.

Thus total pacifism is not only possible, it is the sign of greatest perfection, the perfection of the Kingdom of God. According to the Orthodox understanding, however, pacifism can never be a social or political philosophy for this world; although once again, a non-violent means to an end is always to be preferred in every case to a violent means.

When violence must be used as a lesser evil to prevent greater evils, it can never be blessed as such, it must always be repented of, and it must never be identified with perfect Christian morality.

Also, one final point of great importance is that Christians who are involved in the relativistic life of this world must resist military conscription when the state is evil. But when doing so they must not yield to anarchy, but must submit to whatever punishment is given so that their witness will be fruitful.



Do you have a question on the
Orthodox Faith, Christianity, or the Orthodox Church in America?
Contact Fr. John Matusiak at info@oca.org

 

[xristos.anesti]

It is an issue of PERSONAL MORALITY.

I for one, never had a problem serving the countries that served me, and giving back all I can for what I was given.

There is nothing more a man can do for his fellow citizens, but to in an honest and a lawfull way provide protection to those around him, not doing bad things for the sake of doing them, but asking God for forgiveness for the sake of must.

War is an evil thing, and should be the last option. However, we are weak and feeble, so our options are not always plenty - the last option is sometimes (many times) the only one.

Pacifism is a worthy idea.

War is evil.

But we sometimes have to do evil things so that good can be preserved.

Each to their own, for we will al give account for our lives.

On this issue, I guess, everyone of us will have to make their own minds up.

None is wrong, but God will judge.

 

[OnTheWay]

Violence is never the answer but it always remains a solution.

 

[Kolya]

It is an issue of PERSONAL MORALITY...

Pacifism is a worthy idea.

War is evil.

But we sometimes have to do evil things so that good can be preserved.

Each to their own, for we will al give account for our lives.

On this issue, I guess, everyone of us will have to make their own minds up.

None is wrong, but God will judge.

I agree with X.A. 100%. Every country has a responsibility to protect its citizens, via a police force and a Military Force

Also, one final point of great importance is that Christians who are involved in the relativistic life of this world must resist military conscription when the state is evil. But when doing so they must not yield to anarchy, but must submit to whatever punishment is given so that their witness will be fruitful.

Being Orthodox has not changed my opinion on this at all. I was conscripted into the military of an evil system at that time of my life. I resisted then by not bearing arms, and working in the Medical Corps. But if I had been conscripted into a just government's forces, I would have chosen to defend my country.
God is the Judge of all, and He knows the heart and motive of each of his children.
We should not judge those who feel it is their duty to serve in their country's military services.

 

[repentant]

One thing I still can't understand about the Orthodox position on self-defense is in a situation like this: Let's say that a man protecting his family kills a burglar in his house, but a few seconds after he has killed the bad guy, another bad guy comes and kills him. The good guy has committed a sin, because he has killed someone. But at the same time, he puts his eternal life at risk. So how does one know whether or not to kill the bad guy, when the good guy knows he could very easily die before repenting?

Obviously you should try not to kill someone. But we must understand murder and killing in self defense are two different things. If someone were threating to kill me, my family, or even a stranger for that matter, I would not hesitate myself to drop him. Well I might not be so fast if it was just me, and no one else. If the situation above happened, only God knows what the outcome would be. But I would like to believe that He would look at what is in your heart, and He knows that killing is not something you wanted to do, and was probably hard for you to pull the trigger, or whatever weaponed you used. He would also know that you were looking out for the benefit of your family, and not acting selfishly..

It's like jumping in front of a bullet to save someone from getting shot, you die, is that sucide? I wouldn't think so. You unselfishly gave your life for someone else's. Remember what Jesus said, "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

 

[drewmeister2]

But still, if a man will be perfect and give his life totally to Christ, he will of necessity renounce military service as well as any political service which always and of necessity is involved with relativistic values and greater and lesser evils and goods. Such a man will also renounce his possessions and follow Christ totally and in everything.

Thus total pacifism is not only possible, it is the sign of greatest perfection, the perfection of the Kingdom of God. According to the Orthodox understanding, however, pacifism can never be a social or political philosophy for this world; although once again, a non-violent means to an end is always to be preferred in every case to a violent means.

Here is something I wonder about though: if the only way for a man to be perfect is to be pacifist, then how in the world is a government supposed to protect its people if all the people said, "Well, we want to follow Christ, and not take up arms"? You need people to protect people, and if everyone is trying to be perfect, then how do you protect the citizens?

 

[drewmeister2]

Here is something I wonder about though: if the only way for a man to be perfect is to be pacifist, then how in the world is a government supposed to protect its people if all the people said, "Well, we want to follow Christ, and not take up arms"? You need people to protect people, and if everyone is trying to be perfect, then how do you protect the citizens?

Anyone?

 

[Xpycoctomos]

you may want to try googling "systema" and "Russian Martial Arts", a form of self-defense based in the orthodox midset and developped by monks centuries ago. My friend Bruce knows a lot about this, if anyone is interested, I could see if he could come in here and post about it. He has a lot of good links.. I can't distinguish the good and that mediocre at all.

John

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Looking around, I foudn this explanatin of the philosophy.

Philosophy Aspects of Systema

There is a reason why Russian Martial Art is called THE SYSTEM (the Russian word is Systema). It is a complete set of concepts and training components that enhances one's life. In this case, acquiring the martial art skill is a way to improve the function of all seven physiological systems of the body and all three levels of human abilities the physical, the psychological and the spiritual.

The key principle of the Russian System is non-destruction. The goal is to make sure that your training and your attitudes do no damage to the body or the psyche of you or your partners. The System is designed to create, build and strengthen your body, your psyche, your family and your country.

The System has another name "poznai sebia" or "Know Yourself". What does it really mean to understand yourself? It is not just to know what your strengths and weaknesses are, that is good but fairly superficial. Training in the Russian Martial Art is one of the sure ways to see the full extent of our limitations - to see how proud and weak we really are. The System allows us to gain the true strength of spirit that comes from humility and clarity in seeing the purpose of our life.

As the roots of the Russian System are in the Russian Orthodox Christian faith, the belief is that everything that happens to us, good or bad, has only one ultimate purpose. That is to create the best possible conditions for each person to understand himself. Proper training in the Russian System carries the same objective - to put every participant into the best possible setting for him to realize as much about himself as he is able to handle at any given moment. One of Mikhail Ryabko's words to the beginners is "Be a good person and everything else will come to you." In a simple, yet comprehensive way The System helps you choose and follow the right path.

from: http://www.fight-club.ca/about_russian_martial_arts.php

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Anyone?

I think you (along with many of us) make the classic mistake of confusing the person with the government. The Bible seems to make a clear distinction between the rights of the "rulers" and those of the individual.

Also, to kill someone is to always fall short of perfection... we live in an imperfect world. BUt cowardice is an greater falla nd I would say qualitatively different. Cowardice is a sign of a huge lack of virtue and giving completely into fear. In a situation when one must kill, you, in someway, participated in the enabling of death. This is anything but perfection. But, assuming there was not hate in your heart but rather love for those you were defending and pity for the one who had to die, there is no lack of virtue... it's just that you were forced to participate in the goings ons of this imperfect world. IT's not an easy explanation, but the OC does hold that if a soldier kills a man in battle, he must confess this. Drew, don't search for the perfect answer. We are in an imperfect world and our Church has to respond to imperfect situations. Thus, SHe often can only offer imperfect responses. In the end, we trust in God's mercy.

So, of course there are times from self-defense... or at least defense. Defense of Country, your family, the Church.

What little I have read of this "systema" from Russia, it seems that reading up on it would give you a very very Orthodox response to the "problem" of self-defense from a very Orthodox mind-set.

I would, however, like top reiterate that I do believe there is an important distinction to be made between the duty of the State (the rulers) and the rights of man as individual. It would be unbiblical to assume that what George Bush as PRESIDENT must decide for the Country is somehow similar to what he must decide as FATHER of two daughters. Apples and oranges.

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

Obviously you should try not to kill someone. But we must understand murder and killing in self defense are two different things. If someone were threating to kill me, my family, or even a stranger for that matter, I would not hesitate myself to drop him. Well I might not be so fast if it was just me, and no one else. If the situation above happened, only God knows what the outcome would be. But I would like to believe that He would look at what is in your heart, and He knows that killing is not something you wanted to do, and was probably hard for you to pull the trigger, or whatever weaponed you used. He would also know that you were looking out for the benefit of your family, and not acting selfishly..

It's like jumping in front of a bullet to save someone from getting shot, you die, is that sucide? I wouldn't think so. You unselfishly gave your life for someone else's. Remember what Jesus said, "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

This is exactly how I feel. I may retrain myself from killing a person if he were trying to bring danger to my personal life, if of course I didn't have a family. But since I have a family, and know they would be better served if I am alive. I would kill the person before he could harm me.

Furthermore, if the person was endangering the life of a loved one, I wouldn't hesitate to the take the person's life.

 

[drewmeister2]

This is exactly how I feel. I may retrain myself from killing a person if he were trying to bring danger to my personal life, if of course I didn't have a family. But since I have a family, and know they would be better served if I am alive. I would kill the person before he could harm me.

Furthermore, if the person was endangering the life of a loved one, I wouldn't hesitate to the take the person's life.

Thanks, Xrycoctomos for your replies .

I agree with you Andreas, I would too, but my question is this: wouldn't such actions contradict what was said on the OCA site? "Thus total pacifism is not only possible, it is the sign of greatest perfection, the perfection of the Kingdom of God. According to the Orthodox understanding, however, pacifism can never be a social or political philosophy for this world; although once again, a non-violent means to an end is always to be preferred in every case to a violent means."

I'm confused.

 

[choirfiend]

It's saying that perfection belongs to the Kingdom of God, not that pacifism is the highest a man could attain in the world--for the highest a man could be GIVEN is the Kingdom of God! Since we live in the world, which is fallen and is not the Kingdom, total pacifism is not possible.

 

[Dust and Ashes]

Violence is never the answer but it always remains a solution.

That is signature material there.

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

Thanks, Xrycoctomos for your replies .

I agree with you Andreas, I would too, but my question is this: wouldn't such actions contradict what was said on the OCA site? "Thus total pacifism is not only possible, it is the sign of greatest perfection, the perfection of the Kingdom of God. According to the Orthodox understanding, however, pacifism can never be a social or political philosophy for this world; although once again, a non-violent means to an end is always to be preferred in every case to a violent means."

I'm confused.

It might contradict the OCA site. But at the same time, we have Saints who were great warriors, and leaders in war. Like St. Alexander Nevsky, St. Nicholas Tsar-Martyr, St. Vladimir, St. Constantine the Great, Holy King Milutin etc. And in most of these cases, their wars and fighting were part of the reason why they are Saints.

So I don't understand why pacifism would be viewed by an Orthodox Christian as the only way for one to act in every situation.

 

[Pacifist]

total pacifism is not possible.

Are you sure about that?

 

[drewmeister2]

Are you sure about that?

Thanks everyone for your replies!

Pacifism is possible, but not practical in a fallen world(http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=55&SID=3):

"Thus total pacifism is not only possible, it is the sign of greatest perfection, the perfection of the Kingdom of God. According to the Orthodox understanding, however, pacifism can never be a social or political philosophy for this world; although once again, a non-violent means to an end is always to be preferred in every case to a violent means."

 

[xristos.anesti]

Whatever you need to do, do it - but make sure it is for the glory of God and salvation of men.

It is a tricky one, it is a catch 22 - you're damned if you do - you're damned if you don't.

That is why,
it is a question on which everyone of us, individualy, must give answer to oneself.

Killing is far from perfect - so far, it can not be even placed in the same galaxy with perfection.

But, there you go....

Life is full of absurds of life - that is why it is the life.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Thanks, Xrycoctomos for your replies .

I agree with you Andreas, I would too, but my question is this: wouldn't such actions contradict what was said on the OCA site? "Thus total pacifism is not only possible, it is the sign of greatest perfection, the perfection of the Kingdom of God. According to the Orthodox understanding, however, pacifism can never be a social or political philosophy for this world; although once again, a non-violent means to an end is always to be preferred in every case to a violent means."

I'm confused.

It is always possible that their just.... wrong.

I'm not saying they are, I see other ways to understand that.. but it is just a website and this is a topic that has never been once and for all addressed by the Church except in her actions... and Her actions don't seem to agree with this... at least not how we might understand this quote above at a first glance.

John

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Are you sure about that?

I'd like to hear more of what you have to say.

Do you, as an Orthodox Pacifist, see the governments as having rights (even duties) to defend it's people through force if necessary?

How do you respeond to the cliche questions of protecting one's family with force if necessary?

Are there different kinds of pacifists?

I know that His Grace Kallistos is a pacifist and I was wondering if you knew anything about that. Does he have anything written about it that one can link or get in book/article format?

I am honestly not trying to put you on the spot at all. I am really curious. Feel free to PM me if you feel more comfortable. I have no desire to argue with you or even debate. Any questions that might follow your response are only to further my undestanding of your position.

I am treating you as a kind of quasi expert on the issue mostly because of your name.

God bless brother!

John