Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

WordSword · Jul 24, 2018

Gr8Grace said:
He doesn't claim that he 'desires' to do it.He claims that He is DOING the very things he hates(old sin nature), and not practicing what he would like to do(from the new nature.)

I think in this we have the same opinion but are explaining it differently. We have two natures which have completely different desires, thus believers in their new nature do not desire anything that the the old nature desires. So, what you said is true, we do not desire anything in the old nature. Though our old nature desires evil we in our new nature do not live after it because we are not what we are in the old nature, but we are what we are in our new nature, for God no longer regards us in our old nature (Rom 8:9).

Gr8Grace said:
So a believer who doesn't follow bible doctrine and the mind of Christ WILL NOT follow Gods will. They are saved. John 10:28. But they will not reign with Christ. 2 Tim 2 :12.

In my opinion those who do not live according to Scripture are either still young in their Christian walk and have yet to learn enough Scripture to live by it, but eventually will; or they are not reborn, because one cannot be reborn and lack God's "work" (Phil 2:13) in them.

In 2 Timothy 2:12 it is in reference to unbelievers, i.e. Mat 10:32, 33.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
There are Eternal Security Proponents who believe you have to live holy (like yourself) in order for faith to be true, and there are Eternal Security Proponents who believe they can commit any sin and still be saved (Without repentance of those sins). However, I find it odd that the very gospel message (When initially heard) sounds the same.

Sounds the "same" as what? You've given 2 different views.

The gospel message is to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, without any mention of behavior. Consider Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved. Acts 16:31

You would think that it when the message of the good news is preached to people, they would know that repentance is a part of that message.

Could you cite any verse or verses that mention turning from sin as a requirement for salvation, please?

Repentance being to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ and the fruits of repentance being the forsaking of sin and gody living. For I heard Eternal Security proponents admit that they can mow down a crowd of people with a submachine and they would still be saved.

Here is the bottom line for salvation: one's behavior isn't an issue for salvation. Faith in Christ is the SINGLE issue.

However, behavior is the SINGLE issue for living the Christian life. And God will reward those who are obedient and faithful, and discipline those who rebel.

Are you able to admit and accept these 2 issues as separate issues?

WordSword · Jul 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
1 Timothy 4:1 says, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

Just want to share my opinion of what is meant by "apostatize" because it is often misunderstood. First, we know that not all who profess faith in Christ truly believe, thus when false professors discontinue their professing by eventually permanently leaving it, they have not departed from grace but from a false profession, which all true hypocrites eventually do. Just as true professors will never depart from their professing, and a true profession will manifest an unceasing godly walk by the Spirit. (i.e. 1 John 2:19)

WordSword · Jul 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
To see what I am talking about in my previous post, see this post here.
Make sure you look at who I quoted and read what they said.
For they are in this very thread here.
If after reading such a thing, if that does not get your blood boiling (or make you feel sick), I think you need to relook at what you believe in regards to OSAS.

Jason0047 said:
This means that a person can continue to murder, rape, hate, fornicate, do drugs, and still be saved as long as they believe in Jesus, right? No?

FreeGrace said:
Yep. Why? Because Christ died for ALL sins. Why do you think Christ died for sins, if sins will keep one out of heaven? How does that make any sense? It doesn't. Just because you're offended by the grace of God doesn't mean His grace is cancelled by your offendedness.

I see what your mean, but I'm not sure FG is saying that a person can continue to murder, etc. and still be saved. First, one who is saved would not do these things. Could FG mean could still get saved after doing these things?

JLB777 · Jul 24, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
No, I actually explained how v.27 doesn't rise to the level of setting forth any condition at all. It actually goes without saying. But apparently you aren't familiar with what conditional clauses look like.

So I'll provide several examples of what a conditional clause looks like:

If following Jesus was a condition for never perishing from v.28, it would have to look like this:
27 IF My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and IF they follow me.
28 THEN I will give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

or -

27 AS LONG AS My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and AS LONG AS they follow me.
28 THEN I WILL give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The words in red represent a conditional clause. Yet, Jesus DIDN'T use any of those words, did He.

What are you talking about? I gave 5 numbered points. Which you've ignored.

See above for examples of what conditions look like. And v.27 does NOT have any conditional language in it.

Correct. And no conditional language was used in either verse.

This is made up fantasy. That's NOT what Jesus said. There are NO verses anywhere in the Bible that say what you are claiming.

So no Scripture. Just opinions.

Why do you persist in claiming the "and" creates a condition from v.27? Can you cite and quote ANY English textbook that supports your claim?

Neither v.27 nor v.28 say this.

So, again, no Scripture. Just opinion.

I read about earning an inheritance here. Salvation isn't earned. It's a gift. Eph 2:8,9.

No Scripture. Just opinions.

Here's how to receive eternal life:
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

NONE of these verses mentions following Jesus for eternal life.

ALL of these verses mention believing in Christ for eternal life.

Your claims are unbiblical.

Jesus so plainly says in verse 27, the promise of eternal life and not being snatched out of the Fathers hand is for those who meet the conditions of that verse.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Hear His voice refers to listening with the intent of doing what is heard.

Sheep that hear His Voice and follow do not become lost.

Sheep who hear and follow, do not get snatched out of His hand.

A sheep who wanders away from Him, because they stopped hearing and obeying His voice, will become lost.

Jesus taught this very plainly.

I know you have heard of the prodigal son and the parable of the lost sheep.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents
than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The same language is used to describe the prodigal son.

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’
Luke 15:32

How do you define “lost”?

JLB

FreeGrace2 · Jul 24, 2018

WordSword said:
Jason0047 said:
This means that a person can continue to murder, rape, hate, fornicate, do drugs, and still be saved as long as they believe in Jesus, right? No?

FreeGrace said:
Yep. Why? Because Christ died for ALL sins. Why do you think Christ died for sins, if sins will keep one out of heaven? How does that make any sense? It doesn't. Just because you're offended by the grace of God doesn't mean His grace is cancelled by your offendedness.

I see what your mean, but I'm not sure FG is saying that a person can continue to murder, etc. and still be saved. First, one who is saved would not do these things. Could FG mean could still get saved after doing these things?

No, I don't mean that.

I believe exactly what Jesus said about those given eternal life. They shall never perish.

And I don't "discount" those who have believed and later depart the faith as never having "truly" or "really" believed in the first place.

Jesus was clear about some who "believe for a while", and then, when testing or temptation comes along, "fall away". I believe that Jesus meant falling away from the faith, or ceasing to believe.

There is nothing in the parable of the soils to suggest that the second or even third soil believed in a non-saving way.

Charles Templeton was an evangelist who mentored a young Billy Graham when he started out. They toured Europe in the late 40's, and shared a room during the tour.

Yet, later on, when faced with the conflict between an old earth and young earth creation theology, he concluded that the Bible couldn't be true, and he died an agnostic. He literally left the faith of Christianity.

I cannot imagine how anyone could claim he didn't "really" believe the gospel. How could he spend his life preaching the evangelical gospel if he didn't actually believe what he preached to others?

I firmly believe eternal security because the Bible teaches it clearly, without metaphors, figures of speech or parables for "proof texts", like the Arminians are forced to do.

I also don't believe the Calvinist claim that true believers cannot leave the faith, for both Jesus and Paul gave evidence that they can.

Jesus and the parable of the soils. Luke 8:13
Paul and the prophecy of "later times" when some will abandon the faith. 1 Tim 4:1

One cannot argue that an unbeliever is capable of abandoning the faith.

Only those ON a ship are capable of abandoning the ship.

Those OFF a ship cannot abandon the ship.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2018

WordSword said:
Jason0047 said:
This means that a person can continue to murder, rape, hate, fornicate, do drugs, and still be saved as long as they believe in Jesus, right? No?

FreeGrace said:
Yep. Why? Because Christ died for ALL sins. Why do you think Christ died for sins, if sins will keep one out of heaven? How does that make any sense? It doesn't. Just because you're offended by the grace of God doesn't mean His grace is cancelled by your offendedness.

I see what your mean, but I'm not sure FG is saying that a person can continue to murder, etc. and still be saved. First, one who is saved would not do these things. Could FG mean could still get saved after doing these things?

"Free Grace 2" says he does not mean what he said to me when he said.... "Yes" in regards that a person can continue to do sinful things and still be saved." However, now he is attempting to say that this is not the case? Then why did he say.... "yes" before? Did he say "yes" mistakenly?

I do not believe he did say "yes" mistakenly (although I could be wrong). Why?

Because why is he pushing that you do not have to follow Jesus as per verse 27 as the condition of verse 28 in John 10? Something does not add up here.

Gr8Grace · Jul 24, 2018

WordSword said:
I think in this we have the same opinion but are explaining it differently. We have two natures which have completely different desires, thus believers in their new nature do not desire anything that the the old nature desires.

Those of us who are LIVING in their new nature don't desire the things of the flesh. But those who are quenching or grieving the Spirit, desire and DO the things of the flesh. This is why it is dangerous for us to have a mentality that we will automatically,somehow just live in our new creation. We need to stand guard, recognize,discern when we are out of His will. It is dangerous for us to just sit back and think eventually I will just be in His will.

WordSword said:
for God no longer regards us in our old nature (Rom 8:9).

Amen. Very true when it comes to our position in Christ.

But in our condition in this life, he will regard us as children that may need discipline from living in our condition(old sin nature) rather than our position.

WordSword said:
because one cannot be reborn and lack God's "work" (Phil 2:13) in them.

They most certainly can. Do not Grieve the Spirit and do not quench the Spirit. An unbeliever could't even understand Phil 2:13.......one would have to have(be born-again) the Spirit to even make sense of it. In my opinion, the Philippians were well advanced in doctrine, and we advance in His will and good pleasure IF we are filled and walking in the Spirit.

WordSword said:
In 2 Timothy 2:12 it is in reference to unbelievers, i.e. Mat 10:32, 33.

2 Tim 2:12 is in reference to believers, i.e. 2 Tim 2:11

Here is a trustworthy saying:If( and we have/first class condition) we have died with Him, we will live with Him.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2018

WordSword said:
Jason0047 said:
This means that a person can continue to murder, rape, hate, fornicate, do drugs, and still be saved as long as they believe in Jesus, right? No?

FreeGrace said:
Yep. Why? Because Christ died for ALL sins. Why do you think Christ died for sins, if sins will keep one out of heaven? How does that make any sense? It doesn't. Just because you're offended by the grace of God doesn't mean His grace is cancelled by your offendedness.

I see what your mean, but I'm not sure FG is saying that a person can continue to murder, etc. and still be saved. First, one who is saved would not do these things. Could FG mean could still get saved after doing these things?

In addition, Free Grace 2 said this to me in another thread:

"This so-called "license to sin" doesn't come from grace. It comes from our sin nature. And everyone has one, including jason. He has admitted that he hasn't yet achieved the state of sinless perfection, yet he also claims to be saved, which contradicts his view on sinning and being saved.

He admits to sin, yet he claims to be saved. But he tells everyone that they can't sin and be saved. He is very confused. The Bible describes his views as "self deceived and the truth is not in him", per 1 Jn 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin (jason claims that he will become sinless), we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." ~ by: FreeGrace2.

Source:
Post #1003 in the lie of Eternal Security thread.

My Comment:

In other words, Free Grace 2 believes 1 John 1:8 is a declaration that we will always be in some kind of sin of some kind. He believes if a person is not declaring this truth as per 1 John 1:8, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. I believe 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren to not say that sin does not exist for us. This warning would be talking to Christian Scientists who believe "sin" is an illusion and is not real. This warning would be talking to OSAS proponents who believe that all their future sins are paid for by Jesus because they have a belief on Jesus. Meaning, they are saying that even when they sin, they have no sin in God's eyes because Jesus paid for all their sin. So sin does not exist for them when they do sin.

Gr8Grace · Jul 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
"Free Grace 2" says he does not mean what he said to me when he said.... "Yes" in regards that a person can continue to do sinful things and still be saved." However, now he is attempting to say that this is not the case? Then why did he say.... "yes" before? Did he say "yes" mistakenly?

I do not believe he did say "yes" mistakenly (although I could be wrong). Why?

Because why is he pushing that you do not have to follow Jesus as per verse 27 as the condition of verse 28 in John 10? Something does not add up here.

It adds up. It adds up that your not paying much attention to whats being said.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2018

WordSword said:
Jason0047 said:
This means that a person can continue to murder, rape, hate, fornicate, do drugs, and still be saved as long as they believe in Jesus, right? No?

FreeGrace said:
Yep. Why? Because Christ died for ALL sins. Why do you think Christ died for sins, if sins will keep one out of heaven? How does that make any sense? It doesn't. Just because you're offended by the grace of God doesn't mean His grace is cancelled by your offendedness.

I see what your mean, but I'm not sure FG is saying that a person can continue to murder, etc. and still be saved. First, one who is saved would not do these things. Could FG mean could still get saved after doing these things?

In Post #182 of this thread, Free Grace says that God merely disciplines those who rebel. But this is not a loss of salvation, though. One can still sin and still be saved. So a believer can sleep around with a bunchof people and still be saved and they are only going to be disciplined in this life or lose rewards. This is what I believe is what he is saying. Do you believe the same way?

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2018

Gr8Grace said:
It adds up. It adds up that your not paying much attention to whats being said.

Then why did he say.... "yes?

He said "yes" to my question that a believer can continue to murder, rape, etc. and still be saved.

While I believe a believer can stumble into sin on occasion, they need to repent or confess of those sins to Jesus and forsake those sins. They are not just automatically still saved if they commit those sins.

Was David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Yes, or no?

Gr8Grace · Jul 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Then why did he say.... "yes?

He said "yes" to my question that a believer can continue to murder, rape, etc. and still be saved.

While I believe a believer can stumble into sin on occasion, they need to repent or confess of those sins to Jesus and forsake those sins. They are not just automatically still saved if they commit those sins.

Was David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

Yes, or no?

Yes. And I don't believe David committed adultery. He committed rape. And I don't believe David just committed a murder. He planned it, was a sneak and coward about it.

And my answer is still going to be yes.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2018

Gr8Grace said:
Yes. And I don't believe David committed adultery. He committed rape. And I don't believe David just committed a murder. He planned it, was a sneak and coward about it.

If it was rape, what verses make you think that this was the case?
As for your thinking that David did not commit murder:
Well, just because he planned it does not make it any less a murder. What crime would this be called today? What sin in the Bible would you define it as?

You said:
And my answer is still going to be yes.

This is the problem. Saying that David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder is to turn God's grace into a license for immorality. I mean, what does turning God's grace into a license for immorality as mentioned in Jude 1:4 NIV even mean to you? Do you even know about such a thing?

For would not God have to agree with a person"s sin in order to save them? Meaning, would not God have to agree with a plan of salvation that says we can do evil and yet still be saved? Can God agree with sin? Surely not. God is holy, just, and good; And Jesus's sacrifice does not eliminate basic morality or the goodness of God today or in our present day lives.

Dan the deacon · Jul 24, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
No, I don't mean that.

I believe exactly what Jesus said about those given eternal life. They shall never perish.

And I don't "discount" those who have believed and later depart the faith as never having "truly" or "really" believed in the first place.

Jesus was clear about some who "believe for a while", and then, when testing or temptation comes along, "fall away". I believe that Jesus meant falling away from the faith, or ceasing to believe.

There is nothing in the parable of the soils to suggest that the second or even third soil believed in a non-saving way.

Charles Templeton was an evangelist who mentored a young Billy Graham when he started out. They toured Europe in the late 40's, and shared a room during the tour.

Yet, later on, when faced with the conflict between an old earth and young earth creation theology, he concluded that the Bible couldn't be true, and he died an agnostic. He literally left the faith of Christianity.

I cannot imagine how anyone could claim he didn't "really" believe the gospel. How could he spend his life preaching the evangelical gospel if he didn't actually believe what he preached to others?

I firmly believe eternal security because the Bible teaches it clearly, without metaphors, figures of speech or parables for "proof texts", like the Arminians are forced to do.

I also don't believe the Calvinist claim that true believers cannot leave the faith, for both Jesus and Paul gave evidence that they can.

Jesus and the parable of the soils. Luke 8:13
Paul and the prophecy of "later times" when some will abandon the faith. 1 Tim 4:1

One cannot argue that an unbeliever is capable of abandoning the faith.

Only those ON a ship are capable of abandoning the ship.

Those OFF a ship cannot abandon the ship.

This is encouraging. Now so have to ask why so many protestants oddly assume the judgement seat of Christ isn"t a real judgement bit something else. I believe it is where we are actually judged and not here on earth. It is how the Church believed from Her conception. This saved forever while here on earth is as new as Calvinism. We seem to be looking for this blessed assurance harder than we attempt to actually follow Christ.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
"Free Grace 2" says he does not mean what he said to me when he said.... "Yes" in regards that a person can continue to do sinful things and still be saved."

Please quit misrepresenting what I've said.

However, now he is attempting to say that this is not the case? Then why did he say.... "yes" before? Did he say "yes" mistakenly?

Maybe you've confused me with someone else?

I do not believe he did say "yes" mistakenly (although I could be wrong). Why?

You are confused.

Because why is he pushing that you do not have to follow Jesus as per verse 27 as the condition of verse 28 in John 10? Something does not add up here.

What doesn't add up here is your faulty misunderstanding of what I have posted.

I have NEVER said a believer "doesn't have to" follow Jesus.

EVERY believer is commanded to follow Jesus.

However, the command to follow Jesus is NOT connected to how to be saved.

How to be saved was explained by Paul to a jailer in Acts 16:30,31.

And those believers who don't follow Jesus will be painfully disciplined for it.

So no one gets away with anything, which seems to be a huge sticking point for Arminians.

After all the explanation, it makes no sense for them to keep repeating their mantra that OSAS leads to "getting away" with sin.

Nonsense.

JLB777 · Jul 24, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I believe exactly what Jesus said about those given eternal life. They shall never perish.

And I don't "discount" those who have believed and later depart the faith as never having "truly" or "really" believed in the first place.

Jesus was clear about some who "believe for a while", and then, when testing or temptation comes along, "fall away". I believe that Jesus meant falling away from the faith, or ceasing to believe.

Those who are in Christ must continue to obey His teachings, His word, His doctrine or the will no longer have God.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

If you understand what transgress means, then you will know a person is on one side, then “transgresses” and crosses over to the other side; then no longer obey Christ.

If you understand abide, then you also know that a person who is obeying the teachings of Christ, then leaves that place of obeying Christ, whereby they no longer obeying His doctrine, then they no longer have God.

JLB

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2018

Gr8Grace said:
Yes. And I don't believe David committed adultery. He committed rape. And I don't believe David just committed a murder. He planned it, was a sneak and coward about it.

And my answer is still going to be yes.

See, the problem with saying that David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder is to teach that we can also do the same thing (Whether you want that to happen or not). You are essentially saying to other believers they can do the same evil deeds and still be saved (like David). This is turning God's grace into a license for immorality (Whether you agree with that or not). It is the truth.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 24, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Please quit misrepresenting what I've said.

Maybe you've confused me with someone else?

You are confused.

What doesn't add up here is your faulty misunderstanding of what I have posted.

I have NEVER said a believer "doesn't have to" follow Jesus.

EVERY believer is commanded to follow Jesus.

However, the command to follow Jesus is NOT connected to how to be saved.

How to be saved was explained by Paul to a jailer in Acts 16:30,31.

And those believers who don't follow Jesus will be painfully disciplined for it.

So no one gets away with anything, which seems to be a huge sticking point for Arminians.

After all the explanation, it makes no sense for them to keep repeating their mantra that OSAS leads to "getting away" with sin.

Nonsense.

That is what I am saying. I am saying that you are saying that you do not have to follow Jesus in relation to salvation. While you may not exactly say that we are not to follow Jesus, that is basically what you are saying when you tell a person that they are still saved even if they do not follow Jesus.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 24, 2018

Jason0047 said:
In addition, Free Grace 2 said this to me in another thread:

"This so-called "license to sin" doesn't come from grace. It comes from our sin nature. And everyone has one, including jason. He has admitted that he hasn't yet achieved the state of sinless perfection, yet he also claims to be saved, which contradicts his view on sinning and being saved.

He admits to sin, yet he claims to be saved. But he tells everyone that they can't sin and be saved. He is very confused. The Bible describes his views as "self deceived and the truth is not in him", per 1 Jn 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin (jason claims that he will become sinless), we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." ~ by: FreeGrace2.

Source:
Post #1003 in the lie of Eternal Security thread.

Amen. I still believe that.

My Comment:

In other words, Free Grace 2 believes 1 John 1:8 is a declaration that we will always be in some kind of sin of some kind.

No it isn't any such "declaration". It's simply an awareness that as long as we live on earth with our human (sinful) nature, we are able to sin and 1 Jn 1:8 says that those who claim not to sin are liars.

He believes if a person is not declaring this truth as per 1 John 1:8, they are a liar and the truth is not in them.

The Bible says exactly that.

I believe 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren to not say that sin does not exist for us.

Which is just another way of saying what I've been saying.

This warning would be talking to Christian Scientists who believe "sin" is an illusion and is not real.

Uh, no. It's directed at believers who think they can or have reached a state of sinlessness.

This warning would be talking to OSAS proponents who believe that all their future sins are paid for by Jesus because they have a belief on Jesus.

Again, the Bible is quite clear that when Jesus died on the cross, He died for sins "once for all".

If His death didn't include EVERY sin of every person, then everyone is responsible for earning God's grace and forgiveness for all future sins by themselves.

If that isn't a system of works salvation, then words have no meaning.

Meaning, they are saying that even when they sin, they have no sin in God's eyes because Jesus paid for all their sin.

This is a clear statement of failing to understand justification. Wow.

So sin does not exist for them when they do sin.

No one that I know who believes in eternal security would agree with what you're posting.

It is clear you have no clue as to what I believe.

One only has to read Romans 6 and 7 and Gal 5:17 to know that the believer will continue to have struggles with their sinful nature.

The bottom line, which it seems you are unable to comprehend, is that ONLY WHEN the believer is in fellowship and filled with the Spirit will he/she NOT sin.

But, when the believer grieves and/or quenches the Spirit, they ARE sinning.

And Paul's command in Eph 4:30 and 1 Thess 5:19 are commands to STOP doing it.

So obviously we do it.

But admitting that we sin isn't any kind of permission, or agreement with sin, which it seems you think.

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