• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

JLB777

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟448,811.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Here is what He said:
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

I think you like colors, so I've color coded the 2 verses, for ease of understanding. Like a coloring book. :)

1. The purple words identify the subject of both v.27 and v.28, which are His sheep.

2. Now, please PROVE that the red words DO NOT describe Jesus' sheep, if you can.

3. Or, PROVE that the red words are CONDITIONS for being His sheep, if you can.

4. Then, please PROVE that the green words ARE NOT the CAUSE of having eternal life, if you can.

5. Finally, please PROVE that the blue words ARE NOT the EFFECT of having eternal life.

Now, I've given 5 points that you are invited to refute with PROOF.

Please address each point and show how my view is incorrect and there is another meaning.


No amount of colors or double speak will explain away the truth.


Those who meet the conditions of verse 27 will receive the promise of verse 28.


Those who hear and obey the voice of the Shepherd are those who follow Him.

Those who follow Him receive eternal life.


27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Those who follow for a while then become lost do not qualify for eternal life.


again


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or motheror wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29


At the end of following Him they shall inherit eternal life.



JLB
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,731
USA
✟184,857.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
For me the Bible is so clearly against OSAS it is not even funny.
What's really funny is failing to understand what Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28 about never perishing. It's on the basis of receiving eternal life.

It is not only unbiblical. It is highly immoral - IMO.
Tell that to Jesus Christ, who very clearly taught eternal security in John 10:28.

For if you tell a person they are saved not on the basic of any works, and you say nothing more, this can lead them to think they can turn God's grace into a license for immorality.
Sure. Anyone can twist God's Word to suit their own lusts. So what?

Anyone who teaches the Bible is under obligation to teach ALL of it. Which includes the doctrine of God's discipline, which is painful, per Heb 12:11.

Some will say that you will just automatically do what is good and right in time. But this is not what we read in Scripture.
What we read in Scripture is that those given eternal life, which is when one believes, is that they will never perish. And that God will painfully discipline His children for rebellion.

After We are Saved by God's Grace, God’s Works (Done Through Us) Are Also Required As a Part of the Salvation Process:
There are NO WORKS "as a part of the salvation process".

In fact, Eph 2:8,9 directly refutes that claim.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Did you get that last part? "not by works, so that no one can boast".

(Here are a List of Verses):

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
This is a reference to being justified in the eyes of others, not God's perspective.

iow, unless one demonstrates their faith with deeds, no one will be able to see their faith. God doesn't need to see works. He knows the heart.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
This neither says works are required for salvation, or that salvation can be lost.

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
Ditto above.

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
This isn't even about how to be saved.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
Paul is making the argument that we shouldn't continue in sin. But it sure doesn't say anything about losing salvation because of sin.

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
Are you going to ignore all the verses that teach that salvation and eternal life (equivalents) are by faith?

So, to "obey Him" is a reference to believing in Him for salvation.

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
Same point as James 2:18. Unless one demonstrates deeds, no one can see the faith. And those believers who aren't living holy lives, no one will see the Lord.

Don't you understand that living the Christian life (holiness) is demonstrating Christ to the world?

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
Nothing about works/deeds here. This verse is about God choosing the mechanism or WAY to be saved, which is through belief of the truth.

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
The death here is the same death experienced by the prodigal when he left his father. The father described him as 'dead', but we know he was speaking figuratively, not literally, as you seem to want to make it. What died was fellowship between father and son, because for a son to ask his father for his inheritance while the father was still living was tantamount to telling the father, "I wish you were dead because I want my inheritance NOW." Get the picture?

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
Do you seriously think Paul has the power or authority to curse anyone eternally?

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
Of course those who love the Lord will do that. But the verse doesn't support your claims at all.

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).
I was getting tired of having to point out the SAME FACTS for each of the verses you posted. But NONE of the remaining verses support your claim.

[QQUOTE]Now, you and others might be able to re-interpret the plain meaning of these verses above here, but I am not going to do that.[/QUOTE]
They don't need to be "re-interpreted" at all. None of them address salvation by deeds, nor losing salvation.

I am not above what God's Word says to fit a belief that I would prefer to hear.
Why do you not believe what Jesus said in John 10:28 then? He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

Do you even understand what "never perish" means? It means exactly what it says.

So your view is in direct opposition to the Savior's teaching.

Why doesn't that bother you?
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,731
USA
✟184,857.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
No amount of colors or double speak will explain away the truth.
And here I thought making it color coded, kinda like a coloring book where you color by the numbers, would help you address my 5 points.

But I see that you're not able to do that. Or just unwilling.

But thanks for making that clear by ignoring my 5 color coded points.

Those who meet the conditions of verse 27 will receive the promise of verse 28.
Just a claim without any evidence.

Those who hear and obey the voice of the Shepherd are those who follow Him.
A description of His sheep. Not a condition.

Those who follow Him receive eternal life.
You've done nothing to prove your claim. It is an empty claim. No Scripture.

And v.27 doesn't say what you want it so say.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28
See? Nothing of what you claim.


Those who follow for a while then become lost do not qualify for eternal life.
A claim without evidence or Scripture. Shame.

Your failure to address my 5 color coded points demonstrates the failure of your position. You have no evidence, no support for your empty claim.

That's what you've demonstrated by your dodging my points.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,686
7,909
...
✟1,333,169.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What's really funny is failing to understand what Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28 about never perishing. It's on the basis of receiving eternal life.


Tell that to Jesus Christ, who very clearly taught eternal security in John 10:28.


Sure. Anyone can twist God's Word to suit their own lusts. So what?

Anyone who teaches the Bible is under obligation to teach ALL of it. Which includes the doctrine of God's discipline, which is painful, per Heb 12:11.


What we read in Scripture is that those given eternal life, which is when one believes, is that they will never perish. And that God will painfully discipline His children for rebellion.


There are NO WORKS "as a part of the salvation process".

In fact, Eph 2:8,9 directly refutes that claim.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Did you get that last part? "not by works, so that no one can boast".


This is a reference to being justified in the eyes of others, not God's perspective.

iow, unless one demonstrates their faith with deeds, no one will be able to see their faith. God doesn't need to see works. He knows the heart.


This neither says works are required for salvation, or that salvation can be lost.


Ditto above.


This isn't even about how to be saved.


Paul is making the argument that we shouldn't continue in sin. But it sure doesn't say anything about losing salvation because of sin.


Are you going to ignore all the verses that teach that salvation and eternal life (equivalents) are by faith?

So, to "obey Him" is a reference to believing in Him for salvation.


Same point as James 2:18. Unless one demonstrates deeds, no one can see the faith. And those believers who aren't living holy lives, no one will see the Lord.

Don't you understand that living the Christian life (holiness) is demonstrating Christ to the world?


Nothing about works/deeds here. This verse is about God choosing the mechanism or WAY to be saved, which is through belief of the truth.


The death here is the same death experienced by the prodigal when he left his father. The father described him as 'dead', but we know he was speaking figuratively, not literally, as you seem to want to make it. What died was fellowship between father and son, because for a son to ask his father for his inheritance while the father was still living was tantamount to telling the father, "I wish you were dead because I want my inheritance NOW." Get the picture?


Do you seriously think Paul has the power or authority to curse anyone eternally?


Of course those who love the Lord will do that. But the verse doesn't support your claims at all.


I was getting tired of having to point out the SAME FACTS for each of the verses you posted. But NONE of the remaining verses support your claim.


They don't need to be "re-interpreted" at all. None of them address salvation by deeds, nor losing salvation.


Why do you not believe what Jesus said in John 10:28 then? He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

Do you even understand what "never perish" means? It means exactly what it says.

So your view is in direct opposition to the Savior's teaching.

Why doesn't that bother you?
I don’t have a lot of time, but your obvious error on John 10:28 is not looking at John 10:27 that says that Christ’s sheep FOLLOW Him. That is the condition of not being plucked out of his hand. So you have to “follow” Jesus in order to have security.
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟448,811.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And here I thought making it color coded, kinda like a coloring book where you color by the numbers, would help you address my 5 points.

But I see that you're not able to do that. Or just unwilling.

But thanks for making that clear by ignoring my 5 color coded points.


Just a claim without any evidence.


A description of His sheep. Not a condition.


You've done nothing to prove your claim. It is an empty claim. No Scripture.

And v.27 doesn't say what you want it so say.


See? Nothing of what you claim.



A claim without evidence or Scripture. Shame.

Your failure to address my 5 color coded points demonstrates the failure of your position. You have no evidence, no support for your empty claim.

That's what you've demonstrated by your dodging my points.


You have attempted to explain away the truth of verse 27.


That’s not considered a point.


Those who meet the conditions of verse 27 will receive the promise of verse 28.


Those who hear and obey the voice of the Shepherd are those who follow Him.

Those who follow Him receive eternal life.


27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Those who follow for a while then become lost do not qualify for eternal life.


again


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or motheror wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29


At the end of following Him they shall inherit eternal life.



JLB
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,731
USA
✟184,857.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I don’t have a lot of time, but your obvious error on John 10:28 is not looking at John 10:27 that says that Christ’s sheep FOLLOW Him.
I have looked at v.27. I see NO conditions in that verse.

Here are the 2 verses together:
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

If following Jesus was a condition for never perishing from v.28, it would have to look like this:
27 IF My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and IF they follow me.
28 then I will give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

or -

27 AS LONG AS My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and AS LONG AS they follow me.
28 THEN I WILL give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The words in red represent a conditional clause. Yet, Jesus DIDN'T use any of those words, did He.

That is the condition of not being plucked out of his hand. So you have to “follow” Jesus in order to have security.
There is nothing in v.27 or v.28 that shows what you are claiming.

The words of Jesus are quite plain enough. Those who are given eternal life shall never perish. That is eternal life. Period.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,731
USA
✟184,857.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
You have attempted to explain away the truth of verse 27.
No, I actually explained how v.27 doesn't rise to the level of setting forth any condition at all. It actually goes without saying. But apparently you aren't familiar with what conditional clauses look like.

So I'll provide several examples of what a conditional clause looks like:

If following Jesus was a condition for never perishing from v.28, it would have to look like this:
27 IF My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and IF they follow me.
28 THEN I will give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

or -

27 AS LONG AS My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and AS LONG AS they follow me.
28 THEN I WILL give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The words in red represent a conditional clause. Yet, Jesus DIDN'T use any of those words, did He.

That’s not considered a point.
What are you talking about? I gave 5 numbered points. Which you've ignored.

Those who meet the conditions of verse 27 will receive the promise of verse 28.
See above for examples of what conditions look like. And v.27 does NOT have any conditional language in it.

Those who hear and obey the voice of the Shepherd are those who follow Him.
Correct. And no conditional language was used in either verse.

Those who follow Him receive eternal life.
This is made up fantasy. That's NOT what Jesus said. There are NO verses anywhere in the Bible that say what you are claiming.

So no Scripture. Just opinions.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Why do you persist in claiming the "and" creates a condition from v.27? Can you cite and quote ANY English textbook that supports your claim?

Those who follow for a while then become lost do not qualify for eternal life.
Neither v.27 nor v.28 say this.

So, again, no Scripture. Just opinion.

again

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or motheror wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29
I read about earning an inheritance here. Salvation isn't earned. It's a gift. Eph 2:8,9.

At the end of following Him they shall inherit eternal life.JLB
No Scripture. Just opinions.

Here's how to receive eternal life:
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

NONE of these verses mentions following Jesus for eternal life.

ALL of these verses mention believing in Christ for eternal life.

Your claims are unbiblical.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Gr8Grace
Upvote 0

WordSword

Well-Known Member
Sep 8, 2017
1,498
291
71
MO.
✟295,751.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
For if you tell a person they are saved not on the basic of any works, and you say nothing more, this can lead them to think they can turn God's grace into a license for immorality.
Hi Jason! I appreciate your laborious reply, but it's clear we are of a different understanding on this issue, which of course is okay.

Jesus said every tree will bear (manifest) fruit of what sort it is, thus a person professing to believe will manifest godliness, via the Spirit because it requires Him to truly do so, and never ceasing manifests it's genuinely of God, because the false professors will eventually manifest their evil and cease from just imitating Christ.
 
Upvote 0

WordSword

Well-Known Member
Sep 8, 2017
1,498
291
71
MO.
✟295,751.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"
(Hebrews 3:12-14).
Paul is speaking to those who profess to be Christian. Some truly are and some are not, but are merely in profession only (in name only) and are not in that which is derived from rebirth. The false professors will yet have an "evil heart" and it will eventually manifest itself in their ceasing from their false professions and living natural lives after the old nature. Those who are reborn (Christians) will not have an evil heart, but a heart after God.
 
Upvote 0

Gr8Grace

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2018
1,411
405
52
South Dakota
✟92,024.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hi Jason! I appreciate your laborious reply, but it's clear we are of a different understanding on this issue, which of course is okay.

Jesus said every tree will bear (manifest) fruit of what sort it is, thus a person professing to believe will manifest godliness, via the Spirit because it requires Him to truly do so, and never ceasing manifests it's genuinely of God, because the false professors will eventually manifest their evil and cease from just imitating Christ.
Actually He says every good tree produces good(divine good) fruit....a believer filled with the Spirit and walking in the Spirit.

And a rotten tree produces rotten fruit. Unbelievers AND believers who are quenching or grieving the Spirit.

Lots and lots of unbelievers have lived upright and moral lives and have claimed and imitated Christ to the very end. God knew it was evil, but it looked very,very good to us on the outside.

Religion and counterfeiting Christ is satans ace trump. Not getting folks to eventually go on a murderous, thieving and foaming at the mouth denial of Christ.

Religion, good works, counterfeiting Christs ways yet subtly denying His truths manifest the true tares. And only through His mind(study,study,study) can we discern who may be playen us.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FreeGrace2
Upvote 0

Gr8Grace

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2018
1,411
405
52
South Dakota
✟92,024.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Paul is speaking to those who profess to be Christian.
Can you give us an example were Paul tells us , " look out! This individual is an unsaved 'professor.' He is not really saved!?" Seems to me Paul deal's with folks who are saved but they are acting carnal.

Some truly are and some are not, but are merely in profession only (in name only) and are not in that which is derived from rebirth. The false professors will yet have an "evil heart" and it will eventually manifest itself in their ceasing from their false professions and living natural lives after the old nature. Those who are reborn (Christians) will not have an evil heart, but a heart after God.

From scripture.......where does one get the idea that we are to go around and figure out if a person is truly saved or not?

I have known many people who have relied on their works for Christ to save them and denied faith alone in Christ alone to the very end. Moral, outstanding people, who worked their whole lives under the guise of proving themselves worthy. Never did they revert back to lying,cheating,stealing,murdering,beating their kids and spouse. They claimed Christ all the way, yet relied on their works......I am in catholic country. So I get to see it a LOT.
 
Upvote 0

WordSword

Well-Known Member
Sep 8, 2017
1,498
291
71
MO.
✟295,751.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Actually He says every good tree produces good(divine good) fruit....a believer filled with the Spirit and walking in the Spirit.

And a rotten tree produces rotten fruit. Unbelievers AND believers who are quenching or grieving the Spirit.
Hi GG! I agree, as a bad tree will eventually manifest corrupt fruit, which manifestation is unavoidable. Same concerning unavoidable good fruit manifested by a good tree. Concerning quenching or grieving the Spirit, this is what many will (often inadvertently) do in the early growth in Christ while they are maturing, for who, having the Spirit would willfully do this? Also, this is different from "resisting" the Spirit, which I believe cannot be done if He indwells you; and esp. considering the Father's "work" in each believer (Phil 2:13).

Blessings!
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,686
7,909
...
✟1,333,169.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Paul is speaking to those who profess to be Christian. Some truly are and some are not, but are merely in profession only (in name only) and are not in that which is derived from rebirth. The false professors will yet have an "evil heart" and it will eventually manifest itself in their ceasing from their false professions and living natural lives after the old nature. Those who are reborn (Christians) will not have an evil heart, but a heart after God.

There are Eternal Security Proponents who believe you have to live holy (like yourself) in order for faith to be true, and there are Eternal Security Proponents who believe they can commit any sin and still be saved (Without repentance of those sins). However, I find it odd that the very gospel message (When initially heard) sounds the same. You would think that it when the message of the good news is preached to people, they would know that repentance is a part of that message. Repentance being to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ and the fruits of repentance being the forsaking of sin and gody living. For I heard Eternal Security proponents admit that they can mow down a crowd of people with a submachine and they would still be saved.
 
Upvote 0

WordSword

Well-Known Member
Sep 8, 2017
1,498
291
71
MO.
✟295,751.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Can you give us an example were Paul tells us , " look out! This individual is an unsaved 'professor.' He is not really saved!?" Seems to me Paul deal's with folks who are saved but they are acting carnal.
We have to personally know someone well enough to see from their lifestyle (fruit, what they say and do most of the time) to see any indication of being a false professor. But only God can know for sure about the heart of each.

From scripture.......where does one get the idea that we are to go around and figure out if a person is truly saved or not?
God wants us to identify at least an indication of whether or not one may be reborn, but the reason should only be to help if they desire it, or eventually avoid them.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,686
7,909
...
✟1,333,169.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Paul is speaking to those who profess to be Christian. Some truly are and some are not, but are merely in profession only (in name only) and are not in that which is derived from rebirth. The false professors will yet have an "evil heart" and it will eventually manifest itself in their ceasing from their false professions and living natural lives after the old nature. Those who are reborn (Christians) will not have an evil heart, but a heart after God.

To see what I am talking about in my previous post, see this post here.
Make sure you look at who I quoted and read what they said.
For they are in this very thread here.
If after reading such a thing, if that does not get your blood boiling (or make you feel sick), I think you need to relook at what you believe in regards to OSAS.
 
Upvote 0

WordSword

Well-Known Member
Sep 8, 2017
1,498
291
71
MO.
✟295,751.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
There are Eternal Security Proponents who believe you have to live holy (like yourself) in order for faith to be true,
I believe, if you're saved you will "desire" to live a godly life according to the precepts of Christ, which He revealed through His Apostles in the NT. It's true though that those who do not eventually manifest consistent fruit of the Spirit cannot have been reborn, because you cannot be reborn and avoid the "desire" to "do" God's pleasure (Phil 2:13 - I realize I keep using this passage but it's because it often doesn't seem to get through enough).
 
Upvote 0

Gr8Grace

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2018
1,411
405
52
South Dakota
✟92,024.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Concerning quenching or grieving the Spirit, this is what many will (often inadvertently) do in the early growth in Christ while they are maturing, for who, having the Spirit would willfully do this?
This is Paul,28 years after he was saved. Arguably( and who would really argue it?) the best bible teacher of all time and a spiritually mature SUPER grace believer.........

Rom 7:15~~New American Standard Bible
For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

This is exactly why we see Paul teaching us about grieving and quenching the Spirit. He completely understood that we still have the sin nature and can easily CHOOSE to go there or get duped into it.

So we need to be completely aware(study,study,study) of when we grieve or quench the Spirit. If we don't study and understand it..........................we could live our WHOLE lives doing things we think are good but are evil in Gods eyes.
 
Upvote 0

WordSword

Well-Known Member
Sep 8, 2017
1,498
291
71
MO.
✟295,751.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Rom 7:15~~New American Standard Bible
For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
I believe Paul here is identifying and revealing the yet indwelling sin nature within those born again. He's demonstrating all that he in his old nature desires to do is nothing what he in his new nature desires to do, so he does it with his old nature; after which God no longer regards him or the believer because we are no longer "after the flesh" (Rom 8:9). We are just still learning from our old nature via our new nature--through the Scriptures by the Spirit, in the "life" of the Lord Jesus (Col 3:4).

I think quenching and grieving are mostly results of willful disobedience (which is done against our desire, i.e. like a captive being held against his will - Rom 7:23), though there will be much of this in one young and immature in their level of maturity in Christ until reaching a certain growth.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gr8Grace

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2018
1,411
405
52
South Dakota
✟92,024.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I believe Paul here is identifying and revealing the yet indwelling sin nature within those born again. He's demonstrating all that he in his old nature desires to do
He doesn't claim that he 'desires' to do it.He claims that He is DOING the very things he hates(old sin nature), and not practicing what he would like to do(from the new nature.) 28 years into salvation, and lots of bible doctrine written through this man already.

So a believer who doesn't follow bible doctrine and the mind of Christ WILL NOT follow Gods will. They are saved. John 10:28. But they will not reign with Christ. 2 Tim 2 :12.


Rom 7:15~~New American Standard Bible
For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

2 Tim 2:12~~New American Standard Bible
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

If we endure~~Learn the mind of Christ and 1 John 1:9(name and site our sin and evil[human good] to God). This does not automatically come to the believer nor does God 'zap' the believer at the end of his/her life to give them this knowledge. We have to study diligently and LEARN His ways..............and we are rewarded for our efforts. Those who do not care and sluff off are still saved, but lose rewards and inheritance in the eternal state.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,686
7,909
...
✟1,333,169.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I believe, if you're saved you will "desire" to live a godly life according to the precepts of Christ, which He revealed through His Apostles in the NT. It's true though that those who do not eventually manifest consistent fruit of the Spirit cannot have been reborn, because you cannot be reborn and avoid the "desire" to "do" God's pleasure (Phil 2:13 - I realize I keep using this passage but it's because it often doesn't seem to get through enough).

1 Timothy 4:1 says, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

Here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:
Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:
The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5, 6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)
 
Upvote 0