Seeking Understanding on the Emphasis of Certain Sins in Political and Religious Discourse

[Aaron112]

Marguerite Porete

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1. Marguerite Porete​

   
   Philosopher
   Marguerite Porete was a French-speaking mystic

 

[JeffP]

Where specifically if possible, did you get these teachings ? i.e. was there someone in particular who taught you ?

From where do my understandings of love, tolerance, and forgiveness originate, you ask? These virtues are deeply embedded in the very essence of Christ's teachings, which I've always understood to be foundational to Christianity. The emphasis on these principles was imparted to me by my parents and church leaders throughout my upbringing. Furthermore, the New Testament abundantly radiates messages of love, compassion, and forbearance. So, it isn't derived from a single source but is rather a synthesis of my familial teachings, spiritual leadership, and personal engagement with the scripture.

Given these teachings, I find myself puzzled by the responses and behaviors of many who profess to adhere to Christ's teachings, yet demonstrate anger and retaliation towards people or organizations. Take for instance the 'cancellation' of Bud Light due to featuring a person from the Trans community in a commercial. This kind of resentment and vengeance towards Budweiser, in my perspective, seems to diverge significantly from the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Here are some passages from the New Testament that support my beliefs.

LOVE:

1 Corinthians 13:4-7: Often referred to as the "Love Chapter," it describes the virtues of love.

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

John 13:34-35: Jesus' commandment to love one another.

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Romans 13:10: Love and doing no harm.

"Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

TOLERANCE/ACCEPTANCE:

Romans 15:7: A call to accept one another.

"Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God."

Galatians 3:28: On unity in Christ, regardless of individual differences.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

FORGIVENESS:

Matthew 6:14-15: Teaching on forgiveness.

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Ephesians 4:32: Being kind and compassionate and forgiving.

"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."

Luke 6:37: Judging and condemning.

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

Matthew 7:1-2: Judging and condemning.

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

Also along those lines:

John 8:7:

"When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, 'Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.'"

Romans 2:1:

"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things."

 

[JeffP]

The sins of which you speak are called "abominations." They are abominations because if they take hold in a culture or a nation, they will inevitably lead to the destruction of that nation and the damnation of many. Nature itself will rise up and destroy the generation that indulges itself in the behavior.
Regarding believers and their response, I do not see it differently than against adultery or fornication. If there is a difference, it is because of the gravity of the sin, as explained above. What some call "judgementalism" is actually nothing more than making obvious observations. If I see you rob a store, you are a robber. If you murder, you are a murderer. If you are doing something that you feel is righteous and ok, then why would it offend you if others point it out? You should thank them. Why do you feel condemned in yourself, and what do you care if others reject what you think is correct?
Believers are charged with warning the world about the danger that lies before it. Hell is coming. It is a heartbeat away. So we are like people walking down a road in the foggy darkness. We know the bridge at the bottom of the hill is out, and we know any who travel that way will certainly fall to their death. And so, we warn people. One car goes by and ignores our warnings. They scream at us to stop judging them and leave them alone. They fall to their doom. Another car goes by and throws blasphemes and threats at us. They fall to their doom. A companion with us says, "Stop being so judgemental. Just love them!" A car goes by, and the companion says, "We love you! We apologize for the meanness and cruelty of our friends demanding you turn around!" All who occupy that car also fall to their death. This happens again and again and again.
As far as those who practice such behavior, if you feel there is nothing wrong with what you/they are doing, then what do you care? Why would you be offended if you think what you do is "right in your own eyes?" Just ignore them and go on with your life and behavior.
I do not want to be in heaven one day looking down at people in hell and hearing them screaming why we did not warn them. I wonder if our companion who refused to warn them will feel the same? I suppose that companion will yell down to the people below, "At least we loved you!" Did they?

Navigating through the myriad perspectives regarding our beliefs, especially those intertwined with spiritual teachings, prompts thoughtful reflections on how we communicate and act upon them in our society. A pivotal teaching of Jesus, which can be found multiple times within the New Testament, emphasizes love: “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another” (John 13:34).

Embedded within Christ’s teachings, too, is a strong emphasis on refraining from judgment. A passage from Matthew (7:1-2) elucidates, “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” It’s a gentle reminder that our roles are not to be arbiters of others’ spiritual paths or personal lives.

When reflecting on interactions, especially those steeped in delivering warnings or expressing dissent towards particular lifestyles or identities, a moment of introspection is warranted: Is our dialogue truly wrapped in the genuine, nonjudgmental love advocated by Christ? How do we ensure that our messages, even those intended as loving warnings, are enveloped with genuine love, respect, and kindness? Is the intention genuinely rooted in love, or is it possible that sentiments of anger and disgust are seeping through, albeit subconsciously? Or perhaps not so subconsciously, as there have been instances where religious outrage manifested with an intensity bordering on violence.

A rhetorical reflection thus emerges: When individuals present warnings or express opposition to certain behaviors or lifestyles, is it always unequivocally emanating from a place of divine love and concern? Or could there be instances where the discomfort or disagreement with the behavior overshadows the love and results in a message that leans more towards condemnation than compassionate caution?

Navigating these conversations and ensuring they are laced with grace challenges us continuously, especially within our diverse and multi-faceted society. It calls us to consistently embody and enact the virtues we advocate for, ensuring our actions and words harmoniously align with the compassionate, loving, and nonjudgmental teachings we hold dear.

Let us endeavor to extend a helping hand, embodying the essence of love and understanding, rather than wielding the weighty hammer of condemnation, ensuring our actions and words align with the teachings of love and nonjudgment found in Luke 6:37.

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.” - Luke 6:37

In regards to "abominations":

It’s worth noting that the concept of "abominations" is often discussed in the context of the Old Testament, and while certain actions are labeled abominable in that context, the New Testament does not apply the same label nor present a specific hierarchy of sin. Different Christian denominations and traditions might have various interpretations and teachings regarding this, but a direct biblical ranking of sin or abomination is not present in the New Testament.

That said, homosexual acts are not the only acts listed as "abominations" in the bible. My original question was "Why the focus?".

"Abomination" is mentioned multiple times in the Bible, both in the Old Testament and New Testament, and it refers to actions, objects, or behaviors that are detestable or forbidden according to certain biblical laws and moral codes. However, it's vital to note that different translations of the Bible might use varied terminology or phraseology, so "abomination" might appear as "detestable" or similar words in different versions.

Here are several instances or examples of things labeled as abominations in the Bible, mostly found in the Old Testament:

In the Book of Leviticus:

Dietary Abominations: Certain animals are labeled as abominations and are forbidden to be eaten (Leviticus 11).

Sexual Abominations: Various sexual acts are described as abominations, such as adultery, incest, and homosexual acts (Leviticus 18 and 20).

Idolatry: Idol worship and engaging in pagan practices are considered abominations (Leviticus 18:30).

In the Book of Deuteronomy:

Idolatry and Pagan Practices: Creating idols, worshiping them, and practicing witchcraft are considered abominations (Deuteronomy 7:25-26, 18:9-12).

Dishonesty: Using dishonest weights and measures is described as an abomination (Deuteronomy 25:16).

In the Book of Proverbs:

Several things are labeled as abominations, including haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers (Proverbs 6:16-19).

In the New Testament:

The term "abomination" is used less frequently, but it does appear.

In Revelation, immoral acts and falsehood are deemed abominations (Revelation 21:27).

I understand that there are many ways to interpret these biblical texts, and various church groups and religious leaders might see and use these texts differently in their teachings and community activities. It's also worth noting that the term "abomination" might have different meanings now compared to its original context in the distant past and in different cultures, leading to a variety of perspectives and feelings about it today.

If we consider a path towards destruction and damnation, is it solely this one abomination that will lead us there? Returning to my initial question regarding the concentrated focus on homosexuality: I can't shake the feeling that, for some, the vehement opposition emerges not from a place of love, but rather springs from roots of anger and disgust.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

When studying Medieval Women Mystics I came across Marguerite Porete. Porete was a French Beguine who lived during the late thirteenth and early fourteenth century. She wrote something that has dramatically changed what I look for in any spiritual setting. What she wrote is that there are two churches. The first she called the High Holy Church. That church, she wrote, preaches Love. The other church she called the Little Holy Church. That church preaches rules, laws and order. On June 1st, 1310 Marguerite Porete was burned at the stake by the Little Holy Church. For myself, that spoke volumes.

I wrote a paper on her about 30 years ago. I think that period of time is especially interesting with the ground up religious renewal and flavors of "heresy".

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Navigating through the myriad perspectives regarding our beliefs, especially those intertwined with spiritual teachings, prompts thoughtful reflections on how we communicate and act upon them in our society. A pivotal teaching of Jesus, which can be found multiple times within the New Testament, emphasizes love: “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another” (John 13:34).

Embedded within Christ’s teachings, too, is a strong emphasis on refraining from judgment. A passage from Matthew (7:1-2) elucidates, “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” It’s a gentle reminder that our roles are not to be arbiters of others’ spiritual paths or personal lives.

When reflecting on interactions, especially those steeped in delivering warnings or expressing dissent towards particular lifestyles or identities, a moment of introspection is warranted: Is our dialogue truly wrapped in the genuine, nonjudgmental love advocated by Christ? How do we ensure that our messages, even those intended as loving warnings, are enveloped with genuine love, respect, and kindness? Is the intention genuinely rooted in love, or is it possible that sentiments of anger and disgust are seeping through, albeit subconsciously? Or perhaps not so subconsciously, as there have been instances where religious outrage manifested with an intensity bordering on violence.

A rhetorical reflection thus emerges: When individuals present warnings or express opposition to certain behaviors or lifestyles, is it always unequivocally emanating from a place of divine love and concern? Or could there be instances where the discomfort or disagreement with the behavior overshadows the love and results in a message that leans more towards condemnation than compassionate caution?

Navigating these conversations and ensuring they are laced with grace challenges us continuously, especially within our diverse and multi-faceted society. It calls us to consistently embody and enact the virtues we advocate for, ensuring our actions and words harmoniously align with the compassionate, loving, and nonjudgmental teachings we hold dear.

Let us endeavor to extend a helping hand, embodying the essence of love and understanding, rather than wielding the weighty hammer of condemnation, ensuring our actions and words align with the teachings of love and nonjudgment found in Luke 6:37.

“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.” - Luke 6:37

In regards to "abominations":

It’s worth noting that the concept of "abominations" is often discussed in the context of the Old Testament, and while certain actions are labeled abominable in that context, the New Testament does not apply the same label nor present a specific hierarchy of sin. Different Christian denominations and traditions might have various interpretations and teachings regarding this, but a direct biblical ranking of sin or abomination is not present in the New Testament.

That said, homosexual acts are not the only acts listed as "abominations" in the bible. My original question was "Why the focus?".

"Abomination" is mentioned multiple times in the Bible, both in the Old Testament and New Testament, and it refers to actions, objects, or behaviors that are detestable or forbidden according to certain biblical laws and moral codes. However, it's vital to note that different translations of the Bible might use varied terminology or phraseology, so "abomination" might appear as "detestable" or similar words in different versions.

Here are several instances or examples of things labeled as abominations in the Bible, mostly found in the Old Testament:

In the Book of Leviticus:

Dietary Abominations: Certain animals are labeled as abominations and are forbidden to be eaten (Leviticus 11).

Sexual Abominations: Various sexual acts are described as abominations, such as adultery, incest, and homosexual acts (Leviticus 18 and 20).

Idolatry: Idol worship and engaging in pagan practices are considered abominations (Leviticus 18:30).

In the Book of Deuteronomy:

Idolatry and Pagan Practices: Creating idols, worshiping them, and practicing witchcraft are considered abominations (Deuteronomy 7:25-26, 18:9-12).

Dishonesty: Using dishonest weights and measures is described as an abomination (Deuteronomy 25:16).

In the Book of Proverbs:

Several things are labeled as abominations, including haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers (Proverbs 6:16-19).

In the New Testament:

The term "abomination" is used less frequently, but it does appear.

In Revelation, immoral acts and falsehood are deemed abominations (Revelation 21:27).

I understand that there are many ways to interpret these biblical texts, and various church groups and religious leaders might see and use these texts differently in their teachings and community activities. It's also worth noting that the term "abomination" might have different meanings now compared to its original context in the distant past and in different cultures, leading to a variety of perspectives and feelings about it today.

If we consider a path towards destruction and damnation, is it solely this one abomination that will lead us there? Returning to my initial question regarding the concentrated focus on homosexuality: I can't shake the feeling that, for some, the vehement opposition emerges not from a place of love, but rather springs from roots of anger and disgust.

So, in the end, you are, in fact, judging the motives and actions of those issuing the warnings? Do you assume it is all hate and anger and disgust? That is a judgment on your part. Do you have the superpower to detect the motives of others? So, the danger of "judging" (that is, making an obvious observation) is so dangerous that it is better not to speak against sin at all, lest we do so with a bit of wrong motive. Is that all you see in the Bible? Is that what Jesus, the apostles, and the prophets did when they issued very clear and dire warnings to sinners? There is a hell, and people are going to it. Not my judgment or any other human's judgment. It will happen, and we will see it. There will be people there who will cry out that we should have warned them. What will they say to those who insisted we not?
Jesus was less concerned about not hurting people's feelings or offending them. He was about saving them, even to the point of dying for them. We can at least honor that sacrifice by sharing it and the reason for it with others. Yes, I suppose some people may have wrong motives. But that does not mean all mention of sin and the warnings against sin should cease. It still needs to be said. And yes, some will be offended by it and give long and wise-sounding elocutions about how we should be sweet and nice to the sinners. But I can't help how they choose to receive the message. If they want to see hate and take offense, there is little I can do about that. They need to know.

 

[JeffP]

So, in the end, you are, in fact, judging the motives and actions of those issuing the warnings? Do you assume it is all hate and anger and disgust? That is a judgment on your part. Do you have the superpower to detect the motives of others? So, the danger of "judging" (that is, making an obvious observation) is so dangerous that it is better not to speak against sin at all, lest we do so with a bit of wrong motive. Is that all you see in the Bible? Is that what Jesus, the apostles, and the prophets did when they issued very clear and dire warnings to sinners? There is a hell, and people are going to it. Not my judgment or any other human's judgment. It will happen, and we will see it. There will be people there who will cry out that we should have warned them. What will they say to those who insisted we not?
Jesus was less concerned about not hurting people's feelings or offending them. He was about saving them, even to the point of dying for them. We can at least honor that sacrifice by sharing it and the reason for it with others. Yes, I suppose some people may have wrong motives. But that does not mean all mention of sin and the warnings against sin should cease. It still needs to be said. And yes, some will be offended by it and give long and wise-sounding elocutions about how we should be sweet and nice to the sinners. But I can't help how they choose to receive the message. If they want to see hate and take offense, there is little I can do about that. They need to know.

I concede that I may be engaging in judgment myself, something I need to reflect upon. My core query stems from a desire to comprehend why various religious and political leaders often focus on a particular group of people (in this case LGBTQ+). My own faith wavers when I observe what seems to be a disproportionate targeting of one group by these figures. My intent isn't to judge or warn anyone, something I might inadvertently be doing by initiating this discussion. My personal belief emphasizes loving those I can and leaving the rest to God. Nonetheless, I recognize my way is not the only way, and perhaps it's wisest for me to step back from the entire matter. Even if I harbor beliefs that those who are 'warning' that group may be viewing them through impure lenses, it's not my place to judge either. I must staunchly avoid hypocrisy as it undermines integrity. Thank you for highlighting this. Wishing you a good day.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Seriously, in 2023 who do we think hasn't already been warned? If we polled 100 gay people, how many would check the box saying they have no idea about what Christianity has to say about homosexuality? Isn't there a point where repeated warnings become nothing more than condemnation and perhaps even harassment? Do we seriously think such continuing messages is what will lead people to Jesus?

 

[returntosender]

I am having a difficult time deciding where I should post this query. I've decided to put it here because I believe that this question of mine is truly about behavior. Thank you for reading this - it took me some time to put this question together. I have no angle here. I am trying to understand and I hope you can help me.

I am a straight, married, man that was brought up in the Episcopal church. However I find myself now slightly agnostic. I am perplexed by a palpable paradox within certain religious and political circles. Specifically, I'm puzzled by the seemingly disproportionate scrutiny and condemnation directed at the LGBTQ+ community, which seems misaligned with the broader teachings of love, tolerance, and forgiveness I associated with Christianity.

This scrutiny seems particularly jarring when comparing the attention and condemnation allotted to different perceived 'sins'. For instance, why is there a pronounced emphasis on opposing homosexuality, a matter that concerns a modest portion of the population, while other notable transgressions, such as adultery and dishonesty, appear to be downplayed or overlooked? The latter of which can be exemplified by the substantial religious support for figures like former President Trump, whose tenure and personal life have been marked by instances that ostensibly conflict with Christian ethics.

As someone who strives to live with integrity and empathy, acknowledging my own shortcomings and practicing grace and patience toward others, I find the apparent selective moral outrage disconcerting. The emphasis on the condemnation of one specific group, despite other arguably non-virtuous behaviors being exhibited prominently in public and political spheres, confounds me.

My genuine question to this community: How is it that such fervent opposition to LGBTQ+ individuals coexists with a willingness to seemingly disregard or excuse other behaviors considered sinful within the same moral framework? This incongruence partly steers my skepticism toward organized religion, and so, I sincerely seek your insight and understanding on this matter.

Because it's nasty and they're predators and it's spoken against in the word in various ways of which sodomy is one. It causes nasty diseases . The list goes on. Why should we talk on things that God loves if we practice them and they are sanctioned?
3 most important, no creation comes from them. They cause disgusting disease's such as aids and other VDS and they are a danger to our children.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I concede that I may be engaging in judgment myself, something I need to reflect upon. My core query stems from a desire to comprehend why various religious and political leaders often focus on a particular group of people (in this case LGBTQ+). My own faith wavers when I observe what seems to be a disproportionate targeting of one group by these figures. My intent isn't to judge or warn anyone, something I might inadvertently be doing by initiating this discussion. My personal belief emphasizes loving those I can and leaving the rest to God. Nonetheless, I recognize my way is not the only way, and perhaps it's wisest for me to step back from the entire matter. Even if I harbor beliefs that those who are 'warning' that group may be viewing them through impure lenses, it's not my place to judge either. I must staunchly avoid hypocrisy as it undermines integrity. Thank you for highlighting this. Wishing you a good day.

I disagree that the focus of Christians is on the LGBTQ people.
The press and the left are the ones that highlight that and constantly bring it to the forefront.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I disagree that the focus of Christians is on the LGBTQ people.
The press and the left are the ones that highlight that and constantly bring it to the forefront.

It is not the press nor the left that are making all of these posts about LGBTQ people on Christian Forums.

 

[FireDragon76]

Antisemitism has been called the socialism of fools.

I would submit homophobia is the piety of the slothful and lazy.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

It is not the press nor the left that are making all of these posts about LGBTQ people on Christian Forums.

Christians make a lot of posts on CF. It is a relatively small percentage of the total.

 

[YorkieGal]

Christians do not discard the word of God to fit in with the laws or views of man. Christians know that they will be outcast, shunned and persecuted for defending the faith, as was Jesus Christ himself, and the word of God is unwavering. It does not follow what is acceptable or not acceptable to society at any point in time. Christianity stands in truth, such as it is given by the word of God, and has a duty to defend the original word with truth so that others may be saved.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Christians make a lot of posts on CF. It is a relatively small percentage of the total.

Not when you look at the posts of all the other sins folks could be writing about.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Not when you look at the posts of all the other sins folks could be writing about.

That is a strange turn. Christians not talking enough about sins. We'll see if we can help there. But you won't like that either.
Go ahead. Get started.

 

[Aaron112]

Christians do not discard the word of God to fit in with the laws or views of man. Christians know that they will be outcast, shunned and persecuted for defending the faith, as was Jesus Christ himself, and the word of God is unwavering. It does not follow what is acceptable or not acceptable to society at any point in time. Christianity stands in truth, such as it is given by the word of God, and has a duty to defend the original word with truth so that others may be saved.

Yes, and the enemy as a lion continually (or frequently) still is written as prowling about seeking whom he may devour. It is an ongoing threat to little ones, not one that came and stopped.

 

[Aaron112]

That is a strange turn. Christians not talking enough about sins. We'll see if we can help there. But you won't like that either.
Go ahead. Get started.

I've heard and it seems that Jesus spoke a lot more about judgment for sin and wickednesses than He did , in Scripture, about heaven .... and many warnings related to not continuing in sin lest the condition becomes worse than before ....

 

[Aaron112]

That is a strange turn. Christians not talking enough about sins. We'll see if we can help there. But you won't like that either.
Go ahead. Get started.

If someone posts against idolatry, the idolators get all huffy... against adultery , the ones who believe they are being 'targeted' speak up .... against other gods, those serving other gods get defensive, instead of repenting .... it goes on and on in cirlces as it has for over a decade on forums and in the world.