Seeking A Certain Kind of Voice

[Ufire]

Hello... I'm 25, and I was raised Christian, but not like, obsessively religious. I have what I believe are 99% Christian values, and that's how I was raised. When I was a kid I prayed every night with my mom or dad or both:

Dear God, please bless Mommy and Daddy and grandma and grandpa and Flapjack and Palo and Buster amen.

Those last three are dogs lol; dogs we didn't even own anymore! After that I'd often lie awake for many minutes and just chat with God; we had a very casual but comfortable relationship.

However, as I grew older I just sort of... faded away from God. I grew angry at things I saw happen that I felt God shouldn't have let happen, like my puppy dying. Boy did I give God a talking-to for that! And so eventually I just realised I didn't really believe in God anymore.

I still felt a need for spirituality and so I sought out a lot of alternatives, like Buddhism. I tried seeking Judeism but the people I met on a forum were extremely rude, which was totally the opposite of my experience with Jewish friends at college. I went through a relationship that pushed me away from my family and my values. I was even pro-choice for a while (shudder) thank God truly that nothing awful ever happened.

Nowadays I am a paraprofessional in a pre-k ESE class. I work with special needs kids and love my job and the kids. I'm hoping to be a regular classroom teacher in the fall.

So anyway... I have a friend I've been on several dates with now. We are good friends. He and his family are Catholic. I've been bouncing back in the general direction of Christianity ever since ending the bad relationship (I almost MARRIED that fool!) two years ago.

I just can't seem to find the right people to talk to. I don't want to talk to an extremist who isn't open to any new ideas and thinks women should submit to men and all who don't believe are going to Hell. Yikes, no thank you.

But I also feel strongly that it's not right or truly "faithful" to say you're part of a religion when you have exceptions to too many of the rules. There are a lot of "Liberal Christian" sites and I just don't feel that's right for me either. Saying you're Christian and actually BEING Christian are two different things. Some of those extremists aren't really Christian IMO!

SO I guess my official question is... Do you think the average Christian is open to (some) new ideas, and do you feel that this is an acceptable way to be Christian, or is the only acceptable route to be completely adherent to the Bible verbatim and allow no room for modern interpretation?

I'm really just looking for someone to talk to who is really Christian, but who isn't going to bite my head off or get all preachy. Nor do I want them to be all like "Hey man, whatever you want to believe is cool, dude."

 

[drich0150]

Do you think the average Christian is open to (some) new ideas, and do you feel that this is an acceptable way to be Christian, or is the only acceptable route to be completely adherent to the Bible verbatim and allow no room for modern interpretation?

So long as "open for interpretation" doesn't mean, open to fit your personal world view only. If by open for interpretation you mean, that the bible/Christianity can be used to change some of the religious ideas you may have about what it means to be in the church, but also your open to the idea that the bible/Christianity may also mean for you to change a deeply held world view as well, then your answer is Yes. The bible/Christianity can be considered open to interpretation.

However If you are looking to simply supplement your existing life style with christian accents, but intend to hold tight your personal world view, then perhaps Buddhism would be a better fit. we are told that it would be better on your day of judgment that if you never heard of Jesus than if you knew of Him and did not follow.

 

[Ufire]

So long as "open for interpretation" doesn't mean, open to fit your personal world view only. If by open for interpretation you mean, that the bible/Christianity can be used to change some of the religious ideas you may have about what it means to be in the church, but also your open to the idea that the bible/Christianity may also mean for you to change a deeply held world view as well, then your answer is Yes. The bible/Christianity can be considered open to interpretation.

However If you are looking to simply supplement your existing life style with christian accents, but intend to hold tight your personal world view, then perhaps Buddhism would be a better fit. we are told that it would be better on your day of judgment that if you never heard of Jesus than if you knew of Him and did not follow.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Some liberal christian groups feel like you can twist the Word any way you want, or just completely ignore sections you don't like. But I also mean that modern Christians are willing to look at the verses and interpret them in a way that is faithful, but also modern. Because there are some verses that simply aren't applicable to modern society. I don't see anyone sending away female family members for 21 days after giving birth to cleanse themselves...

Buddhism is an awful fit lol. I tried it. And the only major world view I have that doesn't fit with current conservative Christianity in the USA is of homosexuality.

 

[drich0150]

Buddhism is an awful fit lol. I tried it. And the only major world view I have that doesn't fit with current conservative Christianity in the USA is of homosexuality.

I would go into "Christianity" with an open mind and see where it leads you on this subject, you may be surprised where you end up.

 

[Ufire]

People being in love is never going to be "wrong" to me. I've heard all the arguments; and I'm not here to discuss that particular aspect of my beliefs.

I'm trying to think of how to phrase what I'm really feeling. Do true Christians think they are better than non-Christians? In any way, shape or form.

 

[ebia]

SO I guess my official question is... Do you think the average Christian is open to (some) new ideas, and do you feel that this is an acceptable way to be Christian, or is the only acceptable route to be completely adherent to the Bible verbatim and allow no room for modern interpretation?"

The bible is an on-going story, not a set of commands and prepositional statements. It's the story of what God has done and is doing to put right his world. A story that invites us in to be both part of that putting right and to be put right ourselves.

It's neither something to be ignored, nor something to be simply obeyed, but something to be immersed into so that it becomes our story.

 

[Jpark]

Never mind.

 

[drich0150]

Do true Christians think they are better than non-Christians? In any way, shape or form.

The essence of true Christianity is about having and maintaining a relationship with God. It has nothing to do with measuring one's self against others. Who are we to judge another Man's servant?

That said, like anything else there are those who twist what they believe to suit their own needs, Even though the may call themselves Christian. We are told it is the by our "fruit" that we will be known. We have been called to inspect "fruit" but not to condemn or persecute.

In other words it is ok for us to look past the veneers people present to what their actions portray, but at the same time we are not supposed to get a sense of superiority from it, we are to inspect to help, (As outlined in scripture) not to inspect to punish or simply condemn.

For instance I will take your statement:

People being in love is never going to be "wrong" to me.

As a fruit inspector i would look at your personal belief, and hold it to what the bible says. Then I show you the discrepancies between the two. Next I personally would address the authority in which you have derived your personal belief, and then compare that with the standards in which that Gives scripture (and God's words their authority.) For example I would say that it is not up to us to judge right or wrong, God is the ultimate Judge. I do that to only point out the discrepancy between your beliefs and what the word of God tells us what He expects from us.

There is no better person here. Only one beggar telling another where he has found what the other one seeks.

 

[Ufire]

Thank you everyone for your replies. You're right in that what I think I miss is the personal relationship I had with God as a child. I didn't question it, I just talked to Him. I know questioning is an important part of being Christian and God encourages us to question, but that hopefully our questions lead us back to Him. Maybe I should just start talking to Him again.

I feel awkward asking to go to church with my parents, and I don't know if I'd be more comfortable going on my own. My Dad is atheist (was raised catholic) and my mom hasn't gone in a long time, simply because my dad doesn't go, and they do most things together. I don't want to go with just my mom because I don't like doing things with her and not having my dad around; she likes to make it into a competition of who I like better, her or him. She has done things like that before and it [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]es me off to no end. It's so immature.

He doesn't understand a need for religion or faith. He says he does not feel God in situations where most people say they do, like beautiful landscapes, or inside wonderful churches, or listening to amazing music. He enjoys those things but feels there is no divine presence.

I am very much a daddy's girl and part of me feels like I am disappointing him (and our mutually scientific points of view) when I express my spiritual needs. I absolutely love my dad, so please don't read anything bad in that. He is 100% devoted to my mom despite how selfish she can be. I have told her before that she's really lucky he loves her... because nothing except unconditional love could keep someone married to her.

I'm sorry! That really has nothing to do with this section of the forum. So I guess my next question is...

Do you go to church by yourself or with others? Do you prefer traditional services or contemporary ones? Personally I like traditional ones; contemporary ones feel cheesy and insincere to me.

 

[Ufire]

The essence of true Christianity is about having and maintaining a relationship with God. It has nothing to do with measuring one's self against others. Who are we to judge another Man's servant?

That said, like anything else there are those who twist what they believe to suit their own needs, Even though the may call themselves Christian. We are told it is the by our "fruit" that we will be known. We have been called to inspect "fruit" but not to condemn or persecute.

In other words it is ok for us to look past the veneers people present to what their actions portray, but at the same time we are not supposed to get a sense of superiority from it, we are to inspect to help, (As outlined in scripture) not to inspect to punish or simply condemn.

For instance I will take your statement:


As a fruit inspector i would look at your personal belief, and hold it to what the bible says. Then I show you the discrepancies between the two. Next I personally would address the authority in which you have derived your personal belief, and then compare that with the standards in which that Gives scripture (and God's words their authority.) For example I would say that it is not up to us to judge right or wrong, God is the ultimate Judge. I do that to only point out the discrepancy between your beliefs and what the word of God tells us what He expects from us.

There is no better person here. Only one beggar telling another where he has found what the other one seeks.

There is only one line of scripture in the New Testament that even addresses homosexuality, and it's rather vague in my opinion, and not a straight out "don't do it". Old Testament... well, modern Christians seem to have thrown away most of Leviticus so I don't think it's fair to keep that rule around when throwing out so many others.

 

[Van]

Hi Ufire, lets set homosexual behavior aside, we all sin and Christ bought us, sins and all, with His blood.

The first issue for you is whether you believe in God or not. If God exists and has revealed Himself in His Word, then we should trust what it says. Now different people have different views on some of things it says, like a denomination that ordains folks who openly engage in homosexual behavior. So rather than getting lost in the forest of doctrine, you need to decide who is boss, God or you.

I am sure you can find an "ear tickler" church that provides community and does not challenge you to abide by the commands of Christ, but is that really what you want. Or do you want to be a disciple of Christ, striving to become Christ-like not in outward appearance, but through and through?

May God Bless

 

[drich0150]

There is only one line of scripture in the New Testament that even addresses homosexuality, and it's rather vague in my opinion, and not a straight out "don't do it". Old Testament... well, modern Christians seem to have thrown away most of Leviticus so I don't think it's fair to keep that rule around when throwing out so many others.

I thought we weren't talking about you specific position..

If you want "Relevant" (Non-vague) New testament material to reference lets look at Romans 1:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

There is much more on the subject It is all contained in the NT and it all very specifically does not approve of this behavior. That said i do believe if you look at the list of sin Paul has decided to lump homosexuality in with, you will see that he doesn't use the same grading system as we do when it comes to sin.

For example in the Church a Gossip, or even an envious person is tolerated, and even can be placed in a position of prominence. But if you look at Paul's list these sins are no lessor, or greater than sins like Murder, and or Homosexuality.

That's because all sin deserves the same Hell. All sin points to the need of a savior and all sin reaps the same rewards in the eyes of the Lord. there is no grading scale.

Here I believe the issue is no greater than any sexual sin. It is still a sin that is committed against one's body, and there fore defiles the temple that you have been given to host the lord in. (Just like a young soon to be married couple would have done.)

This is what i mean by "open for interpretation" On one hand we must look to scripture for guidance, and we must be honest with ourselves with what scripture says (even if we do not like it.) But on the other we can also look to scripture and inspect the "fruit" the "church" has endorsed for these many years through acceptance and tradition.

Without a doubt, we are told Sex is only allowed in the confines with in the marriage covenant, and that covenant is a standing contract before God, that must contain no more or less than one man, and one woman. This is a marriage before God, and despite what popular culture believes, it is to the Authority of God we must give an account, not to the courts or our peers.

So we know Homosexuality is a sin, but is it the grievous sin the Customs and traditions the "church' would have us believe?

My, List was taken from romans 1 and those in the church who want to believe that Homosexuality is such a grievous sin usually fail to read Romans 2.
Romans 2 - Passage Lookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

So the short answer is no, we should not treat Homosexuals any different than any other sinner

All of that said, i don't think i will go on any long camping trips with a group of Homosexual men any time soon, but at the same time i would welcome anyone looking to study or looking for God with an opportunity to do so, no matter what their sexual orientation maybe.

 

[ephraimanesti]

SO I guess my official question is... Do you think the average Christian is open to (some) new ideas, and do you feel that this is an acceptable way to be Christian, or is the only acceptable route to be completely adherent to the Bible verbatim and allow no room for modern interpretation?

I'm really just looking for someone to talk to who is really Christian, but who isn't going to bite my head off or get all preachy. Nor do I want them to be all like "Hey man, whatever you want to believe is cool, dude."

MY DEAR SISTER,

Thank you for your OP--it is the first meaningful and honest thread beginning i have come across in many moons.

Why not take some time to check out the music and the talk here:

Welcome - Ancient Faith Radio

and tell me what you think. Eastern Orthodoxy met my needs which were very similar to what you describe. Maybe it has answers for you, too. At least i can guarantee that you won't hear any "whatever you believe is cool, dude" and, on the other hand, you won't bump into any rigidly closed minds. i think it is one of the best things going--spiritually speaking. Let me know what you think.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

P. S. How did your thread get off onto homosexuality issues? i think you perhaps have bigger fish to fry.

 

[JasperJackson]

Do you go to church by yourself or with others? Do you prefer traditional services or contemporary ones? Personally I like traditional ones; contemporary ones feel cheesy and insincere to me.

Hi Ufire,

I go to church by myself as my family are not Christians and I'm not married. But I obviously end up seeing friends there anyway. You'll make friends if you start to go - not sure if that's why you were asking. My church is a great size (~150) so there are plenty of people to get to know without getting overwhelmed. I recommend finding a church that size.

My church is probably somewhere between traditional and contemporary. We don't recite liturgy, the pastors wear normal clothes, and we sing modern worship songs. Actual I guess it is contemporary. But it's not trying to "be cool".

Also, as a general note I recommend you start separate threads for the different things you'd like to discuss here otherwise it might be hard keeping track of everything. Welcome and I hope we can all help you find your way (back) to Jesus!

 

[Criada]

Hi Ufire
It's great that you are trying to find your way back. The Bible says:

You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.(Jeremiah 29:13)

Keep seeking, talk to God as you used to when you were small, ask him to show you the truth, and he will. I wouldn't worry about points of doctrine and how denominations differ just yet... concentrate on finding God, and once you are in a solid relationship with Him, He will guide you in the rest of it.
Praying for you, sweetie.

 

[Ufire]

Hi Ufire, lets set homosexual behavior aside, we all sin and Christ bought us, sins and all, with His blood.

The first issue for you is whether you believe in God or not. If God exists and has revealed Himself in His Word, then we should trust what it says. Now different people have different views on some of things it says, like a denomination that ordains folks who openly engage in homosexual behavior. So rather than getting lost in the forest of doctrine, you need to decide who is boss, God or you.

I am sure you can find an "ear tickler" church that provides community and does not challenge you to abide by the commands of Christ, but is that really what you want. Or do you want to be a disciple of Christ, striving to become Christ-like not in outward appearance, but through and through?

May God Bless

I think I have the same problem many adult non-Christians do... who got to decide which parts of the Bible we didn't have to follow anymore?

 

[Ufire]

MY DEAR SISTER,

Thank you for your OP--it is the first meaningful and honest thread beginning i have come across in many moons.

Why not take some time to check out the music and the talk here:

Welcome - Ancient Faith Radio

and tell me what you think. Eastern Orthodoxy met my needs which were very similar to what you describe. Maybe it has answers for you, too. At least i can guarantee that you won't hear any "whatever you believe is cool, dude" and, on the other hand, you won't bump into any rigidly closed minds. i think it is one of the best things going--spiritually speaking. Let me know what you think.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

P. S. How did your thread get off onto homosexuality issues? i think you perhaps have bigger fish to fry.

Thank you for the link! I will check it out :3 And yeah; I'm not sure how that happened... Because it's not the actual issue; the actual issue is confusion over who had the right to decide we didn't have to follow all of the rules, and which rules were "ok" to ignore and which ones weren't. I'm not questioning the authority of God who inspired the Bible; I'm questioning the multitudes of people who came after who said "oh wait, pork is ok" and "oh, well I guess you don't have to exile lepers anymore" and "yikes, maybe it's not a good idea to stone people to death"... Yet a thing many of us view as completely harmless is still a horrible, awful sin.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Thank you for the link! I will check it out :3 And yeah; I'm not sure how that happened... Because it's not the actual issue; the actual issue is confusion over who had the right to decide we didn't have to follow all of the rules, and which rules were "ok" to ignore and which ones weren't. I'm not questioning the authority of God who inspired the Bible; I'm questioning the multitudes of people who came after who said "oh wait, pork is ok" and "oh, well I guess you don't have to exile lepers anymore" and "yikes, maybe it's not a good idea to stone people to death"... Yet a thing many of us view as completely harmless is still a horrible, awful sin.

MY DEAR SISTER,

NOBODY but God has the authority to countermand God's instructions. When you find that happening--walk, don't run, to the nearest exit.

However, you need to keep in mind that the rules and regulations of the Mosaic Law were primarily designed to show the people their sins and lead them to Christ who fulfilled the Law. There are three kinds of Law in the Old Testament--the Ceremonial Law, the Civil Law, and the Moral Law. Jesus, through His death and Resurrection, did away with the first two "laws" and fulfilled the third.

In their place, a new Law was instituted by God through Jesus--who was, of course, God incarnate--which is based on LOVE and is written on the Hearts of those who follow our Lord and have received His indwelling Holy Spirit for their guidance. Trust me, my dear--the Holy Spirit is quite adept at convicting one of sin when it is appropriate. May He be with you always and lead you into the Light!

MAY YOUR SEEKING BE BLESSED AND YOUR NEED FOR GOD FULFILLED!

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

P.S. Let me know what you think of the Ancient Faith web site when you get a chance.

 

[PerrySB]

There is only one line of scripture in the New Testament that even addresses homosexuality, and it's rather vague in my opinion, and not a straight out "don't do it". Old Testament... well, modern Christians seem to have thrown away most of Leviticus so I don't think it's fair to keep that rule around when throwing out so many others.

Christianity is about submitting your life to Christ and following the leadership of the Holy Spirit. I wouldn’t focus on the rules as much as I would seek a relationship with Christ. The Holy Spirit will lead you into truth if you allow him to.
Read the book of Romans and read it carefully and I think that may help you understand what Christ expects from us. Don’t let man dictate what is right or wrong for you, allow God to do that.

 

[aiki]

I just can't seem to find the right people to talk to. I don't want to talk to an extremist who isn't open to any new ideas and thinks women should submit to men and all who don't believe are going to Hell. Yikes, no thank you.

Hmmm...So, what do you do, then, with the verses in Scripture which command Christian women to submit to the God-given authority of their husbands? What do you think such verses are promoting? Your comments above suggest that you think they are promoting nothing good. But if this is so, why would you want to have anything to do with a religion which promotes such things?

But I also feel strongly that it's not right or truly "faithful" to say you're part of a religion when you have exceptions to too many of the rules.

If the rules governing Christian faith and conduct are God-given, do you really think having "exceptions" to His rules is right or wise? Do you think God gave us commands so that we might pick and choose among them, or bend them to serve modern cultural norms?

There are a lot of "Liberal Christian" sites and I just don't feel that's right for me either. Saying you're Christian and actually BEING Christian are two different things. Some of those extremists aren't really Christian IMO!

Are you aware that Scripture establishes our obedience to God's commands as the defining characteristic of a true Christian? What then of the idea of having "exceptions" to those commands, of having instances where one may disobey His commands?

SO I guess my official question is... Do you think the average Christian is open to (some) new ideas, and do you feel that this is an acceptable way to be Christian, or is the only acceptable route to be completely adherent to the Bible verbatim and allow no room for modern interpretation?

What do you mean by "modern interpretation"? The Bible says what it says. The reader does not determine the meaning of the verses in the Word of God; the verses themselves do that for the reader. If the Scriptures can be fitted with new meaning every few generations, what do the Scriptures become but merely a mirror of those generations?

I'm really just looking for someone to talk to who is really Christian, but who isn't going to bite my head off or get all preachy. Nor do I want them to be all like "Hey man, whatever you want to believe is cool, dude."

So, are you willing to engage in a conversation with a Christian who might disagree with you? I find that many times when people post that they don't want to talk to someone "preachy" or who will "bite their head off," what they really mean is that they don't want anyone telling them they are wrong. Is this what you mean?

Peace.