Seat of Moses ?

[Steve Petersen]

True. However what was different then vs in the time of Yeshua? Nothing regarding the Priests?

And you shall come to the priests, the Levites, and to the judge there in those days, and inquire of them; they shall pronounce upon you the sentence of judgment. 10 You shall do according to the sentence which they pronounce upon you in that place which the Lord chooses. And you shall be careful to do according to all that they order you. 11 According to the sentence of the law in which they instruct you, according to the judgment which they tell you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left from the sentence which they pronounce upon you. 12 Now the man who acts presumptuously and will not heed the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall put away the evil from Israel. 13 And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously.

The people were not to blame unless the PEOPLE acted intentionally, knowing the ruling was erroneous.

 

[Steve Petersen]

yes

Are you familiar with Tim Hegg's take on the Shem Tov Matthew?

 

[AbbaLove]

So, was Jesus talking from both sides of his mouth? He said to them- do what tell you. How does that square with "blind leading the blind"? The judges can be right or wrong, but not both.

You're misinterpreting scripture because of your uncertainty about Moshiach Yeshua.

Mattityahu 23:2-3
2 The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law are experts in the Law of Moshe.
3 So obey everything they teach you, but don’t do as they do. After all, they
say one thing and do something else.​

Yeshua is saying to obey them because they are experts in the Law of Moshe, but then Yeshua goes on to say that they themselves are hypocrites because they don't do what they tell others to do. Hypocrisy by the Pharisees and teachers of the Law breeds more hypocrisy by the people. The blind leading the blind refers to the Pharisees and the teachers setting a poor example ... thereby blinding the people and leading them astray.

What a shame that He did not leave any writings Himself.

Ahhh, but Yeshua did. Moses recorded His Words in the Torah ​

Yochanan 1:1-4, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.​

Yochanan 21:25
But there are also many other things Yeshua did; and if they were all to be recorded, I don’t think the whole world could contain the books that would have to be written!​

Moshiach Yeshua is the physical manifestation of G-d Incarnate (Isaiah 9:6)​

Yeshayah 9:6
For unto us a yeled is born, unto us ben is given; and the misrah (dominion) shall be upon his shoulder; and Shmo shall be called Peleh (Wonderful), Yoetz (Counsellor), El Gibbor (Mighty G-d), Avi Ad (Possessor of Eternity), Sar Shalom (Prince of Peace).​

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Are you familiar with Tim Hegg's take on the Shem Tov Matthew?

No, but I am looking at it now, thanks

 

[danny ski]

​

You're misinterpreting scripture because of your uncertainty about Moshiach Yeshua.

Mattityahu 23:2-3
2 The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law are experts in the Law of Moshe.
3 So obey everything they teach you, but don’t do as they do. After all, they
say one thing and do something else.​

Yeshua is saying to obey them because they are experts in the Law of Moshe, but then Yeshua goes on to say that they themselves are hypocrites because they don't do what they tell others to do. Hypocrisy by the Pharisees and teachers of the Law breeds more hypocrisy by the people. The blind leading the blind refers to the Pharisees and the teachers setting a poor example ... thereby blinding the people and leading them astray.

​

Ahhh, but Yeshua did. Moses recorded His Words in the Torah ​

Yochanan 1:1-4, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.​

Yochanan 21:25
But there are also many other things Yeshua did; and if they were all to be recorded, I don’t think the whole world could contain the books that would have to be written!​

Moshiach Yeshua is the physical manifestation of G-d Incarnate (Isaiah 9:6)​

Yeshayah 9:6
For unto us a yeled is born, unto us ben is given; and the misrah (dominion) shall be upon his shoulder; and Shmo shall be called Peleh (Wonderful), Yoetz (Counsellor), El Gibbor (Mighty G-d), Avi Ad (Possessor of Eternity), Sar Shalom (Prince of Peace).​

I suppose you can look at it that way. I find that line of reasoning unsatisfactory.

 

[ralliann]

Name one Pharisee appointed by Rome.

Right here.....The Pharisees alone presided over Jews in the roman Empire, appointed by Vespsian....................
Yohanan ben Zakai
An excerpt from aish.com...
For example, the leader of rabbinic Jewry at the time of the Temple's destruction in the late first century C.E. -- the generation before R. Akiva -- was R. Yohanan ben Zakai. It was he who was most influential in shaping Judaism during the many centuries of exile that followed. According to the Talmud, R. Yohanan recognized that the Judean revolt against Rome was doomed. As such, he was convinced that the rabbinic leaders had to prepare the Jews for an age in which sacrificial rituals--long the locus of Jewish worship -- no longer existed. Smuggled out of a besieged Jerusalem, the rabbi sought an audience with Vespasian, then the general of the Roman armies and soon to be made emperor. After finding his favor, the rabbi was able to secure from Vespasian a promise for anything he wished. R. Yohanan then requested permission to found an academy in Yavneh, in order that Tora study continue.

another excerpt....
Then Vespasian said to R. Yohanan, "I am now going away from here and will send someone else to take my place. You may, however, make a request of me, and I will grant it." Said R. Yohanan, "Give me Yavneh and its sages...."

 

[Steve Petersen]

Right here.....The Pharisees alone presided over Jews in the roman Empire, appointed by Vespsian....................
Yohanan ben Zakai
An excerpt from aish.com...
For example, the leader of rabbinic Jewry at the time of the Temple's destruction in the late first century C.E. -- the generation before R. Akiva -- was R. Yohanan ben Zakai. It was he who was most influential in shaping Judaism during the many centuries of exile that followed. According to the Talmud, R. Yohanan recognized that the Judean revolt against Rome was doomed. As such, he was convinced that the rabbinic leaders had to prepare the Jews for an age in which sacrificial rituals--long the locus of Jewish worship -- no longer existed. Smuggled out of a besieged Jerusalem, the rabbi sought an audience with Vespasian, then the general of the Roman armies and soon to be made emperor. After finding his favor, the rabbi was able to secure from Vespasian a promise for anything he wished. R. Yohanan then requested permission to found an academy in Yavneh, in order that Tora study continue.

another excerpt....
Then Vespasian said to R. Yohanan, "I am now going away from here and will send someone else to take my place. You may, however, make a request of me, and I will grant it." Said R. Yohanan, "Give me Yavneh and its sages...."

Were there any appointed prior to the Jewish Revolt against Rome. I thought this was the context of this discussion, whether Jesus recognized the authority of the Scribes and Pharisees.

 

[ralliann]

​

You're misinterpreting scripture because of your uncertainty about Moshiach Yeshua.

Mattityahu 23:2-3
2 The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law are experts in the Law of Moshe.
3 So obey everything they teach you, but don’t do as they do. After all, they
say one thing and do something else.​

Mt 23 says it is the seat of Moses that was to be listened to.

2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe​

Yeshua is saying to obey them because they are experts in the Law of Moshe, but then Yeshua goes on to say that they themselves are hypocrites because they don't do what they tell others to do. Hypocrisy by the Pharisees and teachers of the Law breeds more hypocrisy by the people. The blind leading the blind refers to the Pharisees and the teachers setting a poor example ... thereby blinding the people and leading them astray.

The seat of Moses was not sectarian. The high priest was part and parcel of the decisions made from that seat.
Clearly what is said of the sect by John the Baptist, Jesus, and the apostolic writings show this generation of judges would have not qualified to even be judges at all.
A distinction is being made concerning them as a sect, and them as judges in the court presided over by the high priest. Which the high priest did give sentence that year by prophesy.

​

​

 

[ralliann]

Were there any appointed prior to the Jewish Revolt against Rome. I thought this was the context of this discussion, whether Jesus recognized the authority of the Scribes and Pharisees.

He recognized the authority of Moses seat. All parties ruled under Roman authority alike.

 

[ralliann]

That was the whole point of what Yeshua said. As long as they were teaching Torah as Moses did, but they were not, nor did they follow their own teachings. Yeshua did not endorse the man-made rules many Pharisees added to Torah. Remember, those at the time were appointed by Rome. Yeshua called them hypocrites!

I think this is probably correct, but some nuance for considertion
How did Moses teach Torah? God spoke to him, and then he spoke to the people. Is this any different than the high priest in his office, when he received answers from God by urim, in order to transmit the answer of God to those inquiring of him?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Were there any appointed prior to the Jewish Revolt against Rome. I thought this was the context of this discussion, whether Jesus recognized the authority of the Scribes and Pharisees.

I was actually thinking of citing ben Zakkai, he was appointed as the head the Sanhedrin in 50 C.E.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I was actually thinking of citing ben Zakkai, he was appointed as the head the Sanhedrin in 50 C.E.

Appointed by the Romans? I would need a source for that.

 

[ralliann]

Deuteronomy 17 instructs Israel to obey the priests and elders.

Leviticus 4 shows that when they make erroneous rulings those priests and elders must bring a sin offering. The people are not to blame for obeying them as instructed in Deuteronomy unless they acted intentionally knowing the ruling was erroneous.

120. Nobody’s Perfekt: The obligation to bring an offering after an erroneous ruling - OU Torah

Concerning Lev 4...Just a thought I have considered in the past. I would like your thoughts on this.
The law states repeatedly the perogatives given the priests is based upon Gods choosing of them to stand before him and minister unto him.
If as you say this concerns error in Judgement ( I had not considered that before) it is in ignorance, Yes? The Pharisees paid bribes for false witnesses. No ignorance there. However. If the priest, (or others) sin through ignorance, the remedy is for the priest to sprinkle blood with his finger. None but the priest could do that correct?
Look what Jesus says concerning the judgements of the Pharisees as sectarian judges.
Mt 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

True. However what was different then vs in the time of Yeshua? Nothing regarding the Priests?

And you shall come to the priests, the Levites, and to the judge there in those days, and inquire of them; they shall pronounce upon you the sentence of judgment. 10 You shall do according to the sentence which they pronounce upon you in that place which the Lord chooses. And you shall be careful to do according to all that they order you. 11 According to the sentence of the law in which they instruct you, according to the judgment which they tell you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left from the sentence which they pronounce upon you. 12 Now the man who acts presumptuously and will not heed the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall put away the evil from Israel. 13 And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously.

A couple more verses concerning the above.
De 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong; 17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;

De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried

 

[ralliann]

Were there any appointed prior to the Jewish Revolt against Rome. I thought this was the context of this discussion, whether Jesus recognized the authority of the Scribes and Pharisees.

My view is, as I have put forth, the high priest was the ultimate head (chief justice) in the court prior to Yavneh.
Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
Ac 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

Ac 22:5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

Ex 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.

Ac 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

My view is, as I have put forth, the high priest was the ultimate head (chief justice) in the court prior to Yavneh.
Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
Ac 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

Ac 22:5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

Ex 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.

Ac 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

Yes, the Sadducees were "in charge" until after the Temple was destroyed when the Pharisees took over. However, both groups were on the Council.

 

[ralliann]

Yes, the Sadducees were "in charge" until after the Temple was destroyed when the Pharisees took over. However, both groups were on the Council.

Yes, both groups were on the council. "Groups" speaks in terms of sects. Moses did not speak of sectarian offices. All that is really there are offices of authority. The Judges, and the priests. The high priest was the head of the court, and the ruler of the people. We see this in Paul's writings. Letters from the high priest were his authority to go and find those of the way for punishment. He does not cite a sect or a sectarian head. The high priest is always the source. Josephus says that Levites were always present even in the lower courts. That the offices, became sectarianized, does not mean the offices were based on that. And....Josephus says that often times when in positions of authority, they addicted themselves to the notions of the Pharisees, otherwise the people would not tolerate them. So Moses seat may have been Pharisaical in that sense.
The seat of Moses.
Num 9:6 And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day:
7 And those men said unto him, We are defiled by the dead body of a man: wherefore are we kept back, that we may not offer an offering of the LORD in his appointed season among the children of Israel?
8 And Moses said unto them, Stand still, and I will hear what the LORD will command concerning you.
Moses did not judge as an expert in what he already knew, or had taught....... Moses had to go and consult God for the answer.

De 33:8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;


Kings enquiring for answers:

1Sa 28:6 And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
Ezra, Nehemiah Scribes and prophets.......
Ezr 2:63 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.
Ne 7:65 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and Thummim.

Just a side thought.
Will modern dna results suffice replace these, to have priests eat of the holy things if a third temple is built?

 

[Meowzltov]

That was the whole point of what Yeshua said. As long as they were teaching Torah as Moses did, but they were not, nor did they follow their own teachings. Yeshua did not endorse the man-made rules many Pharisees added to Torah. Remember, those at the time were appointed by Rome. Yeshua called them hypocrites!

Actually, according to Matthew 23:1-3, your qualification on it did not exist. Jesus followers were to do and observe EVERYTHING the Pharisees taught.

 

[ralliann]

Actually, according to Matthew 23:1-3, your qualification on it did not exist. Jesus followers were to do and observe EVERYTHING the Pharisees taught.

Mt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Actually, according to Matthew 23:1-3, your qualification on it did not exist. Jesus followers were to do and observe EVERYTHING the Pharisees taught.

Depends which translation you believe.

 

[Meowzltov]

Depends which translation you believe.

Every translation I know of uses the words "all", whatever, whatsoever, and "everything." IOW all the translations say the same thing.