Seat of Moses ?

[ralliann]

Not sure if the Seat of Moses is an actual thing or a metaphor for authority. Nevertheless, Jesus said his disciples were to do what the Scribes and Pharisees told them to do, though they were hypocrites. How much more so when they are NOT hypocrites.

Well he sat to decide the difficult controversies in the court. So it would then be a high authority. But we also see the lower courts were to consult the temple ministers. Mainly the high priest in higher matters to difficult for them. They could consult the the Lord by the stones in his breastplate of decision.
Jesus seems to have told them to listen to them when they spoke from the Sanhedrin, as Judges over civil matters along with the high priest.

 

[Meowzltov]

Matthew 23:1-7 What does Matthew 23 mean to you? What did Yeshua mean when he said the hypocrites sit in Moses seat? Was Yeshua mocking the religious leaders or their instructions?

The first verses of Matthew 23:1-3 are not directed to the Pharisees, but to Jesus' followers, and are not mocking anyone at all -- they are dead serious.

The core of the passage is that Jesus is instructing his followers to obey the pharisees in EVERYTHING they teach (which is going to include Oral Torah as well as Torah, obviously). He prefaces this remark with the reason for it: they sit in Moses seat. This is because the Pharisees are the legitimate successors of the judges/elders before them, whom Moses appointed, just as the Rabbis will be after them, meaning they have the authority to teach as well as interpret Jewish law as per Deut 17;8-13.

Jesus also follows it up with a kind of, "and don't forget" LOL. What comes out of their mouths is one thing and what they do is another -- it's only what comes out of their mouths that has teaching authority, so don't pay any attention to what they do.

NOTICE THAT JESUS DOES NOT REQUIRE THE PHARISEES TO BE GOOD MORAL PEOPLE IN ORDER TO BE AUTHORITATIVE TEACHERS AND INTERPRETERS OF THE TORAH.


The rest of the chapter is the "Seven Woes," where Jesus chastises the hypocritical Pharisees. Not that all Pharisees were hypocritical. But certainly the ones that Jesus harangued were. And part of the problem is that leaders are held to a higher standard. You can't have English teachers that say, "She speaks English really good." The seven woes were a brutal castigation of the Pharisees. It gives whole new meaning to "raked over the coals."

 

[Eloy Craft]

Jesus also follows it up with a kind of, "and don't forget" LOL. What comes out of their mouths is one thing and what they do is another -- it's onlyeven what comes out of their mouths that has teaching authority, so don't pay any attention to what they do.

 

[pinacled]

Matthew 23:1-7 What does Matthew 23 mean to you? What did Yeshua mean when he said the hypocrites sit in Moses seat? Was Yeshua mocking the religious leaders or their instructions?

Excellent conversation.
Though I wonder if any person here can relate with the man who suffered as much as he did.
How many years Did it take for the man to find comfort at the well?

Yeah, there came about a time when the complacent became numb when their hearts hardened and their eyes dulled.
So they reached desperately for power and concededly gleaned from the poor.

 

[ralliann]

The first verses of Matthew 23:1-3 are not directed to the Pharisees, but to Jesus' followers, and are not mocking anyone at all -- they are dead serious.

The core of the passage is that Jesus is instructing his followers to obey the pharisees in EVERYTHING they teach (which is going to include Oral Torah as well as Torah, obviously). He prefaces this remark with the reason for it: they sit in Moses seat. This is because the Pharisees are the legitimate successors of the judges/elders before them, whom Moses appointed, just as the Rabbis will be after them, meaning they have the authority to teach as well as interpret Jewish law as per Deut 17;8-13.

Jesus also follows it up with a kind of, "and don't forget" LOL. What comes out of their mouths is one thing and what they do is another -- it's only what comes out of their mouths that has teaching authority, so don't pay any attention to what they do.

NOTICE THAT JESUS DOES NOT REQUIRE THE PHARISEES TO BE GOOD MORAL PEOPLE IN ORDER TO BE AUTHORITATIVE TEACHERS AND INTERPRETERS OF THE TORAH.

A requirement of Moses.
Ex 18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
The Pharisees were called snakes and vipers by john the Baptist. Would they even qualify for a lower court?
Mt 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mt 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Mt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mr 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

But as the seat of Moses included not mere sectarian bent, but the high priest by duty of office before the Lord....That did not matter their Moral Character.
As his ( high priest) sentence was .........
jn 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

 

[Eloy Craft]

What do you think about Matthew 23:2?

Jesus knows Moses personally. Remember the Transfiguration? He let the disciples see His glory. This is the glory of His soul. In the light of that glory His disciples could see Moses and Elijah. Moses is in Paradise where Jesus' soul was too when He was on earth, and a place He could always see. Where Adam was before he fell down here. But up high on the Mountain of Transfiguration the disciples could see Jesus conversing with Moses and Elijah. Not that it was the first time they talked to Jesus but this time the disciples could see. How did they know it was Moses and Elijah? Two men they had never seen? In the light of Jesus' glory, their mode of knowing was elevated and they could know the truth of a person because they were knowing in the way one knows things when they are in Paradise. Not by appearance but with the internal gaze, that is, unobstructed intuition.

Jesus would not disrespect authority from Moses because Moses is with Him and Moses is a brother to Him. Moses received the authority that Jesus is given from His Father. Christ submits to authority that comes from above and teaches that suffering the unjust judges that wield authority from His Father is faith that pleases Him. That kind of suffering sanctifies the soul.

John 19:10
Pilate therefore said to him, “Do you refuse to speak to me? Do you not know that I have power to release you, and power to crucify you?” 11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above; therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

The social structure that carries God's Word from age to age begins with the men who first spoke it, those God appoints. Before their earthly life ends, they appoint others to teach it in their absence and preserve it for the generations to come. When the golden age of those who God appoints is over, that time becomes a written tradition to preserve the Word that came out of the mouth(s) of those who received it directly from God. Then, those who they appoint, teach and interpret with authority that comes from Moses or the Apostles, and these Sacred successors, and the Sacred writing, both flow from the Sacred Tradition of the founders. From them, and the written tradition, is the entire expression of the Word of God on earth. This is the means God uses to pass on Revelation of Himself from age to age. Moses' seat was the first and is the example of the social structure that guards, carries and teaches God's Word continuously until the end of time.

This is why Jesus said to obey the teachers He condemns.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Matthew 23:1-7 What does Matthew 23 mean to you? What did Yeshua mean when he said the hypocrites sit in Moses seat? Was Yeshua mocking the religious leaders or their instructions?

I believe it may be a mistranslation from the Hebrew/Aramaic version of Matthew 23:2-3. The difference is between the words "yomar and "yomru". It says "Upon the seat of Moses the Pharisees and the sages sit. Now all which HE (Moses) says to you keep and do; but (according to) their ordinances and deeds do not do because they say and do not."

 

[Zosimos Eremitic]

Why just Catholics? if you omit the Hail Mary part, and the priest, then I would say that there are a considerable number of Christians who do exactly the same in the Protestant congregations. It is unfair to say it about one group as if they are the only culpable sinners in the world

Of the considerable number, only the Catholics and the Protestants eh? Hahah

 

[Heber Book List]

Of the considerable number, only the Catholics and the Protestants eh? Hahah

Well that only leaves the Orthodox, which I forgot to add in my post. Who else have you in mind in the Christian Church that does not fit into those three categories?

 

[Eloy Craft]

Now all which HE (Moses) says to you keep and do; but (according to) their ordinances and deeds do not do because they say and do not."

That seems a bit strained to me. How were they to know what Moses say's to do? It seems to advocate the only alternative, which would be to interpret the Law for themselves. Sola scriptura.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That seems a bit strained to me. How were they to know what Moses say's to do? It seems to advocate the only alternative, which would be to interpret the Law for themselves. Sola scriptura.

To read Torah

 

[Heber Book List]

That seems a bit strained to me. How were they to know what Moses say's to do? It seems to advocate the only alternative, which would be to interpret the Law for themselves. Sola scriptura.

Moses told the people, and us, to obey G_d, to choose between life and death. He wrote down all that G_d had told him in the Book of the Law. The powers that be in Yeshua's day perverted the Law of G_d in favour of their own law which became a yoke on the shoulders of the people. Hence Yeshua saying that his yoke is easy.

Paul realises this in Romans 7 where he sees the juxtaposition between what he had learnt as a Pharisee with what Yeshua taught him in his 17 years of 'exile', before his ministry began.

 

[Dkh587]

Messiah is teaching people to obey the Torah, but not be hypocrites like the scribes & Pharisees are

They teach the Torah, but they don't obey he Torah.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Messiah is teaching people to obey the Torah, but not be hypocrites like the scribes & Pharisees are

They teach the Torah, but they don't obey he Torah.

Matthew 5:17-20

 

[pat34lee]

Moses' seat was a judges seat.

Hopefully, you would listen to a judge
and do anything he tells you that you
have to do, legally. But their power is
only over legal matters.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Moses' seat was a judges seat.

Hopefully, you would listen to a judge
and do anything he tells you that you
have to do, legally. But their power is
only over legal matters.

You don't think they had power over religious matters? Do you mean judgements from Torah?

 

[Dkh587]

Matthew 5:17-20

Are you quoting this in favor of what I said, Or in favor of the Pharisees?

The Pharisees were generally hypocritical teachers - they were outwardly righteous, which is self righteous. Don't you remember the Messiah comparing them to white washed tombs? They were more focused on the outside of the cup than the inside

To exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees means to be inwardly righteous, which is greater than the outward righteousness of the Pharisees

The Messiah even said to not follow the Pharisees example - they say DO and they themselves DO NOT. That's because they didn't do what they were teaching

Messiah was *constantly* rebuking the scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy and outward righteousness, which honestly is not really righteousness at all

Matthew 23:25-28
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The Zadokites (Saduccees) were the conservative aristocratic priestly class while the Pharisees were the more progressive religious party. Wherever the written Scripture failed to give clear instructions, the Pharisees appealed to the oral law (which they alone controlled) for answers. They were in charge of Halakhah. In matters pertaining to national government or to the administration of the temple and its rituals, they recognized the authority of the Sadducean priesthood, for the Pharisees were generally scholars and preachers rather than priests.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Are you quoting this in favor of what I said, Or in favor of the Pharisees?

The Pharisees were generally hypocritical teachers - they were outwardly righteous, which is self righteous. Don't you remember the Messiah comparing them to white washed tombs? They were more focused on the outside of the cup than the inside

To exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees means to be inwardly righteous, which is greater than the outward righteousness of the Pharisees

The Messiah even said to not follow the Pharisees example - they say DO and they themselves DO NOT. That's because they didn't do what they were teaching

Messiah was *constantly* rebuking the scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy and outward righteousness, which honestly is not really righteousness at all

Yes, Yeshua said to obey Torah.

 

[ralliann]

The Zadokites (Saduccees) were the conservative aristocratic priestly class while the Pharisees were the more progressive religious party. Wherever the written Scripture failed to give clear instructions, the Pharisees appealed to the oral law (which they alone controlled) for answers. They were in charge of Halakhah. In matters pertaining to national government or to the administration of the temple and its rituals, they recognized the authority of the Sadducean priesthood, for the Pharisees were generally scholars and preachers rather than priests.

But.....What about Moses Torah, and all that was at that time? It seems the discussion concerns sectarians which did not exist in the time of Moses. So didn't Moses simply give positions of authority for government? Were not things provided by God which were necessary to rule in that authority exist in the time of Moses?
The high priest had the urim and thumim to consult God himself. Why was their a need for oral torah from anyone else? This is why it is called oral torah in the first place is it not?
"Sentence" in these two verses means mouth......
Does not verse 11 specifically say According to the mouth of the law? Oral law?
De 17:10 And thou shalt do according to the sentence <06310>, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:
De 17:11 According to the sentence <06310> of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.

These verses is what the Pharisees appealed to against the Sadducees. Which Sadducees had already had written sentences handed down historically (the book of decrees). It was the Pharisees which rejected this (abolishing the book of decrees), since they accused it was not to be written down, but by mouth. But after the destruction of the temple, they themselves put their own oral law into writing. The very thing they rejected of the Sadducees. Consider that the sentence (mouth) of the law which was given by them of that place was to be adhered to. So, why would it not be written down, that those historical SENTENCES were not turned from, and carefully followed. Just like the Pharisees did their own, and for the same reason the Pharisees did their own.
But my main point is....What existed at the time of Moses when he spoke those words? The breastplate of decision did indeed contain the stones by which men could consult God directly through the high priest. Therefore anything to difficult for decision in a lower court was to go to the place where they could consult God on such matters?