SDA's and the Reformation

[BibleDisciple]

Can someone help me out? I was listening to a SDA preacher this morning who said something like the SDA's are an evolution of the (Luther) Reformation. He didn't use those words, but I would to discuss them, if someone can help me out.

This is what doesn't make sense. I know that Ellen White researched the Waldensians and discovered that they were, early on, Sabbath keepers. The SDA movement and Sabbath keeping didn't start with the Reformation and there have been Sabbath keeping Christians since the time of Christ. Why try to attach the SDA movement to the Reformation?

 

[BobRyan]

Can someone help me out? I was listening to a SDA preacher this morning who said something like the SDA's are an evolution of the (Luther) Reformation. He didn't use those words, but I would to discuss them, if someone can help me out.

This is what doesn't make sense. I know that Ellen White researched the Waldensians and discovered that they were, early on, Sabbath keepers. The SDA movement and Sabbath keeping didn't start with the Reformation and there have been Sabbath keeping Christians since the time of Christ. Why try to attach the SDA movement to the Reformation?

The Millerites were people from all protestant denominations - that joined in "meetings" not in a new denomination - more like a prophecy "seminar". They did not agree on every single doctrine - they were exclusively looking at eschatology - end time events.

But they did have the sola-scriptura Protestant model and they used the well-accepted historicist model of prophetic interpretation. So the Protestant "basics".

As for your post -- I did not hear/watch that SDA preacher you are talking about .. but I do know that this is a common topic for them.

So then that would be "Luther", as in the protestant principles - still being foundational to the SDA denomination that formed from a few of those Millerites (people who attended William Miller's seminars) that chose to accept the Sabbath and study to find agreement on a few more doctrines.

The Sabbath doctrine was introduced to the Adventists primarily through influence from Seventh-day Baptists. So it was never "a thing" in the Adventist church to say that we started it. Ellen White claimed that various groups over time had kept Saturday as the Christian Sabbath going all the way back to the Apostles.

 

[Gary K]

Can someone help me out? I was listening to a SDA preacher this morning who said something like the SDA's are an evolution of the (Luther) Reformation. He didn't use those words, but I would to discuss them, if someone can help me out.

This is what doesn't make sense. I know that Ellen White researched the Waldensians and discovered that they were, early on, Sabbath keepers. The SDA movement and Sabbath keeping didn't start with the Reformation and there have been Sabbath keeping Christians since the time of Christ. Why try to attach the SDA movement to the Reformation?

Why would you not attach the SDA church to the Reformation? It follows the principles of the Reformation. Every man is to study God's word for himself. Every man is to trust God to lead him to truth. Scripture is the only guide to God. Tradition is not to be relied upon, only God's word. Salvation is possible only through the merits of Jesus. God's grace leads us to repentance and obedience.

I've just finished reading J. H. Merle d'Aubigne's History of the 16th Century Reformation, and he highlights everything I've listed above as the highlights of the truths taught in the Reformation. The Reformation wasn't about following men, it was about following God.

d'Aubigne's 5 volume set is a very good read. It's well over a 1000 pages long but it highlights the truths of the Reformation as well as Reformation history. It's too bad most of Protestantism has abandoned the faith of it's reformers who risked their lives to bring the truth of God's word to the attention of the people.

Those are the foundational truths of the Reformation. And SDA's believe in every one of them.

 

[BibleDisciple]

I believe that Luther was a great man. I've personally never known anyone to go to jail for his beliefs. Luther did. And then to be first person to translate the Bible into the language of the common man was incredible. Can you imagine not having access to a Bible to read or going to church and hearing a sermon in Latin?

He's not perfect, though. I'm reading a book that mentioned how the Nazi's used Luther's rants against the Jews late in life as propaganda for their mass racism.

Interesting thoughts from you two.

 

[BobRyan]

I believe that Luther was a great man. I've personally never known anyone to go to jail for his beliefs. Luther did. And then to be first person to translate the Bible into the language of the common man was incredible. Can you imagine not having access to a Bible to read or going to church and hearing a sermon in Latin?

He's not perfect, though. I'm reading a book that mentioned how the Nazi's used Luther's rants against the Jews late in life as propaganda for their mass racism.

Interesting thoughts from you two.

Amen to that. In the book "Great Controversy" there are 2 whole chapters devoted to Martin Luther's life and great contribution to the Reformation.
Chatper 7 "Luther's Separation from Rome" -
Chapter 8 "Luther before the Diet" - "here I stand"

Whole chapters are devoted to other great men of faith as well including Wycliff, Huss and Jerome, and Wesley.

 

[Gary K]

In speaking of great reformers of the 16th century we cannot leave out Huldrych Zwingli from Switzerland. As a contemporary of Luther he brought great truth to the Reformation, i.e. the true meaning of the last supper vs transubstantiation which Luther never let go of. A lot of people have not heard of him but he was a major figure in the Reformation at the time. He was murdered after being wounded in a battle with Papal forces, and he was so hated by the Papists that after they mutilated him they quartered him like a cow and then burnt his body to ashes. That's how effective his writings and preaching were. And many of his converts and friends were so effective witnessing in France that they were burnt at the stake. So he was actually the major influence in the early days of the Reformation in France.

I knew a little about him before reading d'Abigne's tome but he brings to light just how important a role Zwingli played in the Reformation. Reading his tome was a real education on the Reformation. d'Aubigne wrote two multi volume tomes on the reformation. The first is on the Reformation during the 16th century with Luther, Malancthon, Erasmus, Zwingli, etc... , and the second on the Reformation during John Calvin's days. Both tomes are available on archive.org's library of free downloadable ebooks in pdf format. And his his 16th century Reformation tome is available in epub format from Project Gutenberg.

His tomes are not read in a day or two, but they are well worth the time spent reading them. One of the things he brings to light is the great political impact the Reformation brought through bringing Biblical truths to light after centuries of darkness and the liberty that truth brought to the world.

 

[Gary K]

I believe that Luther was a great man. I've personally never known anyone to go to jail for his beliefs. Luther did. And then to be first person to translate the Bible into the language of the common man was incredible. Can you imagine not having access to a Bible to read or going to church and hearing a sermon in Latin?

He's not perfect, though. I'm reading a book that mentioned how the Nazi's used Luther's rants against the Jews late in life as propaganda for their mass racism.

Interesting thoughts from you two.

I agree. Luther was a very remarkable man, but mostly so in his reliance upon God. He had an incredible faith and he trusted God when other men's faith fainted at the dangers involved.

Did you know when he appeared before the Diet at Worms that there were so many people interested in him and what he had to say that when he attempted to go appear before the Diet that the streets were so solidly packed with people that he couldn't reach the Diet on his own? A group of armed soldiers had to attempt to get him through the massive crowd that blocked the streets in all direction for many blocks in length. They had to resort to taking him through walled gardens, homes, hidden passageways, etc... just so he could appear. In addition to the streets being packed solid with people every building's windows opening upon the route were filled with spectators and the roofs of those buildings were covered also That was how great the public interest in Luther was at the time.

I had the idea before reading d'Aubigne that Luther had just walked up there and spoke. My imagination was far, far, short of the reality of what really happened at that Diet. It was far and away the biggest event of any kind to happen in Germany that year. There were hundreds of thousands, if not a million, people there for that event.

 

[BibleDisciple]

Which books are the best on the Reformation?

 

[BobRyan]

Which books are the best on the Reformation?

Adventists have a well-known one within the denomination - The Great Controversy, by Ellen G. White. Chapter 8: Luther Before the Diet -- it is free online. This is chapter 8 about Luther's trial. Chapter 7 is also very good about Luther.

 

[Gary K]

Which books are the best on the Reformation?

That's a good question. I don't know that I can give you a comprehensive answer. All I can do is tell you what I think of the books I have read on it.

I like what Ellen White wrote on the Reformation. But, her focus in books in which she speaks to it and the reformers of the Reformation, do no focus on the Reformation exclusively. The book Bob has mentioned is part of a 5 volume set, The Conflict of the Ages Series, that is focused on the war between Christ and Satan, of which, obviously the Reformation played an important part. But the time span Ellen White covers starts with the fall of Lucifer in heaven and ends with the destruction of sin and sinners and then the earth made new. It's a fascinating read. And I'm a Christian today because of it. Especially her book on the life of Christ, The Desire of Ages. It's by far the best book ever written on the life of Christ. After reading it I discovered for the first time in my life that God actually loved me. It was a life changing revelation that someone actually loved me for who I was, and am. Until I read that book I had never known that anyone loved me.

As to books on the Reformation itself I've read a few. Some have a very specific focus on a single reformer. Others cover time periods with multiple reformers.

The Life and Times of John Huss is a 3 volume set written by Ezra Hall Gillett. I liked it and I learned a lot about who Huss was, what he taught, and the corruption he faced and condemned. I think it is well worth reading. Huss was burnt at the stake for his teaching of justification by faith. This set of of books is freely available for download from The Online Library of Liberty.

Also I highly recommend the multiple volume tomes written by d'Aubigne that I wrote about earlier in this thread.

I would also recommend The Selected Writings of Huldrich Zwingli. It's a collection of some of the more important writings of Zwingli and an overview of his life. It's a free download from The Online Library of Liberty. I found it an interesting read.

Anyway, I hope this helps. It's a lot of reading, but the Reformation was one of those events that turned the world upside down and well worth the time to study.

 

[BobRyan]

Which books are the best on the Reformation?

A number of good books out there but the one I like is this free online version;

Ellen White wrote a very brief summary about it in the form of 14 chapters within the book "the Great Controversy" The Great Controversy — Ellen G. White Writings

 

[reddogs]

Why would you not attach the SDA church to the Reformation? It follows the principles of the Reformation. Every man is to study God's word for himself. Every man is to trust God to lead him to truth. Scripture is the only guide to God. Tradition is not to be relied upon, only God's word. Salvation is possible only through the merits of Jesus. God's grace leads us to repentance and obedience.

I've just finished reading J. H. Merle d'Aubigne's History of the 16th Century Reformation, and he highlights everything I've listed above as the highlights of the truths taught in the Reformation. The Reformation wasn't about following men, it was about following God.

d'Aubigne's 5 volume set is a very good read. It's well over a 1000 pages long but it highlights the truths of the Reformation as well as Reformation history. It's too bad most of Protestantism has abandoned the faith of it's reformers who risked their lives to bring the truth of God's word to the attention of the people.

Those are the foundational truths of the Reformation. And SDA's believe in every one of them.

The issue is the churches of the Reformation instead of uniting and spreading the gospel, broke down into creeds and failed to continue forward in their search for Gods truth. And now they are slowly going back into Romes grasp with its lure of ecumenism and its false system of worship.

 

[Gary K]

The issue is the churches of the Reformation instead of uniting and spreading the gospel, broke down into creeds and failed to continue forward in their search for Gods truth. And now they are slowly going back into Romes grasp with its lure of ecumenism and its false system of worship.

That the generations that followed the reformers failed to follow in the footsteps of the level of commitment that Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Huss, Jerome, etc... had in furthering their knowledge of, and love for, the truths God has continued to reveal doesn't mean that God didn't work miracles during the Reformation and teach those reformers great truths. They were men who loved God and truth with all their hearts. That's why God used them to accomplish as much as they did.

That their spiritual descendants haven't been as dedicated to knowing God as their forerunners isn't the fault of the great reformers. Those men were used by God to do a mighty work of spiritual reformation. Truth had been covered over for hundreds of years and it takes time to uncover all the truths that had been lost sight of.

Let's just hope that you and I have the same love of, and commitment to, truth that those men had. If we do we will change the world for we will have a faith that moves mountains. If we do not change the world like those men did, whose fault is that? God's?

 

[BibleDisciple]

One thing that I didn't understand until recently about the reformation was the power of state churches. The protestant church of England was all powerful (and the monarch was the head of the church). The Lutheran faith dominated Germany. Catholicism has dominated Italy for close to 2000 years. Now that power has waned, and we have a smorgasbord to choose from.

I have been complaining against what I call the corporatization of churches for years. Churches care more about money than God. Preaching has become a means to make money.

Right now, unless you are Italian or Hispanic, the Catholic church is in deep decline.

Liberal Protestant churches are nothing new. I wonder what is in store for the future.

 

[DarylFawcett]

The issue is the churches of the Reformation instead of uniting and spreading the gospel, broke down into creeds and failed to continue forward in their search for Gods truth. And now they are slowly going back into Romes grasp with its lure of ecumenism and its false system of worship.

This is also fulfilling Bible prophecy, is it not?

 

[BibleDisciple]

Which prophecy are you referring to?

 

[reddogs]

That the generations that followed the reformers failed to follow in the footsteps of the level of commitment that Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Huss, Jerome, etc... had in furthering their knowledge of, and love for, the truths God has continued to reveal doesn't mean that God didn't work miracles during the Reformation and teach those reformers great truths. They were men who loved God and truth with all their hearts. That's why God used them to accomplish as much as they did.

That their spiritual descendants haven't been as dedicated to knowing God as their forerunners isn't the fault of the great reformers. Those men were used by God to do a mighty work of spiritual reformation. Truth had been covered over for hundreds of years and it takes time to uncover all the truths that had been lost sight of.

Let's just hope that you and I have the same love of, and commitment to, truth that those men had. If we do we will change the world for we will have a faith that moves mountains. If we do not change the world like those men did, whose fault is that? God's?

And now it seems they have completely forgotten their roots and are drifting into the trap of ecumenism, and surrender of their long held truths that they had.

 

[Gary K]

And now it seems they have completely forgotten their roots and are drifting into the trap of ecumenism, and surrender of their long held truths that they had.

Does not your statement also apply equally to the SDA church? We have forgotten our roots and are drifting into places God never designed we should go. We have ignored Ellen White's counsel so many times it's embarrassing. I don't see many differences between main stream Protestantism and we as a people.

We have been told that Christ could have come more than 100 years ago if we, speaking of the church, would have done as God told us to. We have been told that when the character of Jesus is reproduced in His people that He will come and that the honor of the Godhead is involved in us becoming like Jesus. And we've been clearly told how to accomplish that objective. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him our lives will be lives of continual obedience. Is that not the reproduction of Christ's character in us?

So why hasn't Christ's character been reproduced in us? Is it that we just don't put getting to know God at the very top of our list of priorities? Jesus said, To know God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent is life eternal.

I'm not trying to pick on you or anyone else. I hold myself responsible for my part in Jesus having to delay His coming because I am not like Jesus. When I look at myself and the church as a whole I can't see that we have any right to point fingers at other denominations because they are backsliding. We have been given far more truth and light than they have and yet it's more than 120 years of what is seemingly a very careless attitude about getting to know God as it is our privilege to know Him.

It seems to me that we as a people are responsible for the great evil that exists in the world today and all the pain and suffering that has been going on since the dawn of the 20th century. Why? Because Jesus could have come before then and He has told us why and we've ignored His pleas to put knowing Him at the very top of our list of priorities so that He can come.

I have a really hard time looking at what is going on around us and wondering how soon we will get serious about choosing to put an end to sin and suffering. Wasn't it Elijah that said, How long halt ye between two opinions? If the Lord be God follow Him, and if Baal be God follow him. I hope our answer will not be the same as the nation of Israel for they wouldn't even answer the question. I hope we will decide to love the perishing more than Israel did in Elijah's time so that this world of sin can be done away with.

 

[BibleDisciple]

One thing that I have learned over the last decade is that nothing stays the same. The country is not the same country that I grew up in. You would think that the church should stay the same, but whatever church you attend will not be the same church you attended decades ago. This isn't always bad, but it's not the same. There will be revivals, but they won't last. Nothing stays the same.

With the trends we see in Christianity as a whole, if you believe that Christ is delaying his coming because of those trends, then I don't see Him coming soon.

If you believe that the world and Christianity need to be in a very severe point of decay for Him to come, then you could become optimistic that Christ will come soon.

 

[Gary K]

One thing that I have learned over the last decade is that nothing stays the same. The country is not the same country that I grew up in. You would think that the church should stay the same, but whatever church you attend will not be the same church you attended decades ago. This isn't always bad, but it's not the same. There will be revivals, but they won't last. Nothing stays the same.

With the trends we see in Christianity as a whole, if you believe that Christ is delaying his coming because of those trends, then I don't see Him coming soon.

If you believe that the world and Christianity need to be in a very severe point of decay for Him to come, then you could become optimistic that Christ will come soon.

Hmmm.... Nothing stays the same? Really? God changes? Where is that idea found in the Bible? God changes to go along with sinful culture? Anyone who follows God with all their heart and all their mind changes so as to become the same as the sinful culture around them?

It seems to me you are advocating Christianity ought to follow culture and become like it, rather than following God and become like Him.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Jesus said,

Matthew 7:24 ¶Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.