SDA

bekkilyn said:

It's funny when people quote Ephesians 2:8-10 on one side and then on the other side say that we have to earn our continued salvation by following law.

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That would not be funny, but deadly heresy, and I never said, and no Seventh-day Adventists in this whole forum has ever said it, but what is funny is that you (and others) continually attempt to put it into the mouth of another. Your straw man, you dance with it.

Karola said:

Do you obey the ten commandments?

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Your focus is on the wrong person, and thus ask the wrong question.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Thus:

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

The matter is one of living faith.

Karola said:

Wouldn't it be better to say, you try and fail to keep the ten commandments, not you keep the ten commandments? Isn't that more honest a statement?

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I get it---you guys are dyslexic!! Silly me! I should have thought of it sooner! I guess for you I should say that you don't keep any and don't care!! No problem! If that is what the Spirit is telling you--then you must be right. The Spirit loves naked worshippers also---at least you don't have to worry about ironing your clothes.

Benjamin Calvary said:

Your focus is on the wrong person, and thus ask the wrong question.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Thus:

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

The matter is one of living faith.

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I take it then you do not obey the ten commandments

bekkilyn said:

you have lost your salvation and have to start all over again?

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No. Once lost, it cannot be regained, see Hebrews 6. Ever.

OT: King Saul: 1 Sam. 10:1-13, 15:1-31, 16:1-15; 1 Chron. 10:13

Saul was "turned into another man" (1 Sam. 10:6) and God had given him "another heart" (1 Sam. 10:9), and it was the LORD (JEHOVAH) that "anoint[ed]" (1 Sam. 10:1; 1 Sam. 15:1) him, and "set [him] up" (1 Sam. 15:11) and the "Spirit of God came upon him" (1 Sam. 10:10) and he "prophesied" (1 Sam. 10:10) among the prophets, for "God was with [him]" (1 Sam. 10:7), and the one who "sent [him]" (1 Sam. 15:18), for at this time, he "was little in [his] own sight" (1 Sam. 15:17), for "the LORD looketh upon the heart" (1 Sam. 16:7) even of Saul, for Saul knew the name of the "LORD" (1 Sam. 15:13) and "worshiped" (1 Sam. 15:31) God.

However, though Saul for a while was "another man", having "another heart", and the "Spirit of God", being at that time and for awhile "little in [his] own sight" (1 Sam. 15:17), he did not continue to follow and obey the voice of the LORD and keep his Law and so "he is turned back from following [God], and hath not performed [The LORD's] commandments" (1 Sam. 15:11), grieved away the Holy Ghost, and committed the unpardonable sin, and "the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul" (1 Sam. 16:14), and later because he refused to turn back (repent) to the LORD, "Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it" (1 Chron. 10:13).

Men have the freedom to "turn back from following" God at any time, even after being given "another heart".


This is not only in the OT, but in the NT also:

Acts 4:23-37, 5:1-11.

Both (Ananias and Sapphira) were "believers" among the "multitiude", and they had at one point "one heart" with them all, but then they allowed the temptation of satan, of the love of money, to spring up in them, a root of evil, and it cost them all. They are lost. They lied to the Holy Ghost, which they had been partakers of with the multitude, under pentecostal power, thus lied to God in His very presence. They grieved away the Holy Spirit, and are lost. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour [near brother]- Exodus 20:16 KJB.

They resisted the Holy Ghost. They accepted satan's temptation. Being filled with the Holy Ghost, doesn't eliminate satan's temptations [the love of money is the root of all evil, thus they allowed that GMO seed of satan to be planted in their heart soil, and allowed it to grow into a green bay tree ...they lied, and no lie is of the Truth, and the Holy Ghost leads into all truth ...]. Just ask Christ Jesus in the wilderness. They made their decision, set firm in it, and lied to the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is polite. He leaves where unwanted. And so when the house becomes empty, you get squatters. it is why we are warned:


Let me give you a type. The Temple in Jerusalem represents not only the body of Christ Jesus, but the individual person. It was filled with all manner of uncleanness, buyers and sellers, loud noises, [and in fact it points to the three items in the sanctuary, the Table of Shewbread, Golden 7 Branch Candlestick and the Golden Altar of Incense], etc. Jesus comes into the Temple, cleanses the Temple of the defiling spirits. He then dwells in the temple and teaches, and heals, etc. And going on His mission. Yet, later in the end of His 3 1/2 ministry, Jesus had to do this again, and He then dwells in the temple and teaches, and heals, etc. Yet the hardended pharisees come back in the Temple and they refuse Jesus - the Truth for they loved to believe a lie instead. Jesus then leaves that Temple permanently, saying that it was no longer His Father's House, but that their house was left desolate. They blasphemed away the Holy Ghost.

Ananias and Sapphira were among "the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul" (Act. 4:32), and those who were "assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness" (Act. 4:31). Thy had claimed, as with all the others present, "ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common" (Act. 4:32), and "and great grace was upon them all" (Act. 4:33). Many of the persons present, "were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold" (Act. 4:34) and in so doing, "laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need" (Act. 4:35). A specific example of this among the believers who acted rightly in honesty, was "Joses" (Act. 4:36), who, "Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet." (Act. 4:36), and did not attempt to withhold anything, but gave all as promised (having vowed before God and all).

However, we are also given a contrast, of those among "them that believed" (Act. 4:32), once "filled with the Holy Ghost" (Act. 4:31), as "Joses" (Act. 4:36) was, and also made such a vow before "God" (Act. 5:4) and all, to "[sell] a possession" (Act. 5:1) and to "[bring] the prices of the things that were sold" (Act. 4:34), but instead of being faithful in their vow they had made, "Ananias, with Sapphira his wife" (Act. 5:1) decided to "[keep] back part of the price" (Act. 5:2) and "[bring only] a certain part" (Act. 5:2), seeking to hide their deed from the believers, while being noted among the believers as faithful to their vow. They had allowed "satan" to "[fill their] heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land" (Act. 5:3), and in so doing, "not lied unto men, but unto God" (Act. 5:4), even having "agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord" (Act. 5:9), and thus grieved away the Holy Ghost (allowing satan in), and committed the unpardonable sin against God, and so died in their sin, and "gave up the ghost" (Act. 5:5,10), and so "great fear came upon all the church" (Act. 5:11) and all that likewise heard it.

Peter was given information of Ananias and Sapphira's "hearts" (Act. 5:3,4) by the Holy Ghost (Act. 5:3), even the "Spirit of the Lord" (Act. 5:9), being "God" (Act. 5:4), for the Holy Ghost can share portions of His omniscience when needful.

This is a lesson for "all the church" (Act. 5:11), in that, just because a person at one time in their life "believed" (Act. 4:32), and was "filled with the Holy Ghost" (Act. 4:31), does not mean that they cannot of their own free will choose to walk away from God, or to cease from heeding the Holy Ghost, allowing satan in to cause eternal ruin. Sin is very serious.

This is why it is written:

Both examples were given (OT: Saul, 1 Sam. 10:1-13, 15:1-31, 16:1-15; 1 Chron. 10:13, and NT: Ananias and Sapphira, Acts 4:23-37, 5:1-11), which show that a person can turn away from their salvation, and become eternally lost.

John speaks about the sin unto the eternal (second) death. Not physical death. Notice the words, "I do not say that he shall pray for it" (1 Jhn. 5:16). Why? Because that sin which grieves away the Holy Ghost, "never hath forgiveness" (Mar. 3:29), which even King David knew, which is why He prayed, after his own sin with Bathsheba and the killing of Uriah, "Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me." (Psa. 51:11), because David knew to pray, "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression." (Psa. 19:13), which "great transgression" is the unpardonable sin.

The sin not unto death, are those sins, which are committed before the blaspheming away of the Holy Ghost. However, Ananias and Sapphira had grieved away the Holy Ghost, and as such, "satan" filled them, as was done in King Saul's case. No one in those places prayed for them, for their forgivenss, for the Holy Ghost already told Peter their hearts. Read it. They are eternally lost.

There are many more such texts, like Matthew 18:21-35; Ezekiel; Deuteronomy; and many NT texts, to come.

mmksparbud said:

I get it---you guys are dyslexic!! Silly me! I should have thought of it sooner! I guess for you I should say that you don't keep any and don't care!! No problem! If that is what the Spirit is telling you--then you must be right. The Spirit loves naked worshippers also---at least you don't have to worry about ironing your clothes.

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You fail to understand the new covenant. Though in honesty, we admit we fail where the law is concerned, the law is in believers hearts, so in their hearts they want to follow what has been placed there.

Karola said:

I take it then you do not obey the ten commandments

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Read, since you refuse to understand what I have already provided:

Luk 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

Karola said:

You fail to understand the new covenant. Though in honesty, we admit we fail where the law is concerned, the law is in believers hearts, so in their hearts they want to follow what has been placed there.

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Explicitly (from scripture) define the new covenant.

Benjamin Calvary said:

Read, since you refuse to understand what I have already provided:

Luk 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

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I asked you a simple question, only requires a yes or no answer

Benjamin Calvary said:

Explicity (from scripture) define the new covenant.

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This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’b]'>[b]

17 Then he adds:

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more
That's the basis of it

Karola said:

I asked you a simple question, only requires a yes or no answer

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I gave you the answer, it only requires you to read and understand.

Benjamin Calvary said:

I gave you the answer, it only requires you to read and understand.

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Oh I know the answer, you do not obey the ten commandments

bekkilyn said:

But you can't *keep* your saved state unless you follow them, correct? And that includes the Saturday sabbath. Because if you don't diligently observe the Saturday sabbath, then you are living in a state of willful transgression of the law. Hence, if you don't follow the law, you aren't saved and therefore need the law in order to *be* saved. So somehow his grace isn't enough.

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Let me see---if you break any of them and are unrepentant--you believe you will be saved? Right? Since they don't matter you'll slide right in. You know, they have special glasses now for dyslexia--they are rose colored I believe---perfect for you. I am not sure they come with magnification properties though.

Karola said:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’b]'>[b]

17 Then he adds:

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more
That's the basis of it

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When God said, "My law" in Jeremiah 31:33. What, in context (Jeremiah 31, and all of Jeremiah, even from Exodus 16 and throughout), is that "my law" of God? Define it explicitly from scripture.

Karola said:

You fail to understand the new covenant. Though in honesty, we admit we fail where the law is concerned, the law is in believers hearts, so in their hearts they want to follow what has been placed there.

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You just plain fail to understand!!!

Benjamin Calvary said:

God's character is indeed 'limited' to 'no sin', which is exactly what the transcription of His character is in the Ten Commandments, as cited to you: Exodus 33:12-23, 34:1-9, 20:5,6; Psalms 40:8.

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So it's perfectly okay to get rip-roaring drunk every night since that's not covered by the ten commandments. Since God is limited and bound by just those ten, anything we used to think was a sin that those didn't specifically cover must be okay.

His "will" is found in Psalms 40:8.

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Yep, that's kind of where the Holy Spirit resides, at least for new covenant Christians.

Therefore, when you speak of the word "will" (of God) to what specific definition are you referring to?

The Holy Ghost is only given to them that "obey" him:

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The Gentiles weren't diligently following the ten commandments or any old covenant laws when they were filled with the Holy Spirit. They weren't under old covenant law and never have been.

Act_5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

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So obviously obedience here isn't about the ten commandments because the Gentiles weren't under those laws. Could it have something to with obedience to the Holy Spirit, I wonder, obedience to God himself? That God who is living inside everyone who believes in him and seeks his will?

For instance, see the perfect Man, filled perfectly with the Holy Ghost, and His perfect walk:

Luk 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
Luk 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Jesus kept the sabbath of the LORD (His Father). Jesus said (John 14:15, Exodus 20:6).

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The old covenant was still in place for Jews until Jesus died on the cross, and Jesus was Jewish, so he would have been under law at the time.

mmksparbud said:

You just plain fail to understand!!!

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It is willingly so. Do not be too frustrated. Ultimately it is their decision.

Benjamin Calvary said:

When God said, "My law" in Jeremiah 31:33. What, in context (Jeremiah 31, and all of Jeremiah, even from Exodus 16 and throughout), is that "my law" of God? Define it explicitly from scripture.

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The law God desires you to follow. Love God and love your fellow man/neighbour would pretty much sum it up

Karola said:

The law God desires you to follow. Love God and love your fellow man would pretty much sum it up

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I want an exact citation from scripture please.

Scripture can indeed be trusted for the PURPOSES for which it was written.

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Ahh yes that is true. And that purpose is "doctrine, correction and instruction in righteousness" 2 Tim 3:16

2 Timothy 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:16 New King James Version (NKJV) 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

2 Timothy 3:16 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

The Mosaic law that includes the ten commandments was written for the purpose of a covenant ... Many have pointed out many specific verses to you and to other SDA,

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And all of Christendom "knows better" than to go for that "creative writing"?
"not - just SDAs"

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 EVEN in the NT
"The LAW written on heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 IS the NEW Covenant in the OT and is UNCHANGED in the NT - Hebrew 8:6-12

That "moral law of God" includes ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments as we see in Eph 6:2 and as all of Christendom freely admits "not - just SDAs"

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

bekkilyn said:

That's the *general* purpose of scripture and no one has disagreed with it,

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I am ok with having agreement on some part of the conversation.

Jesus himself, the *living* Word of God, is our Lord and Savior and we are to trust him

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True and Jesus is not "at war with His own Word"