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BobRyan

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Well considering that I never stated that only SDA's believe in the ten commandments, .

Scripture can indeed be trusted for the PURPOSES for which it was written. The Mosaic law that includes the ten commandments was written for the purpose of a covenant between God and the Israelites there in person at Sinai and *their* generations. The covenant was so that they would be able to remain in the land that God had promised them. ..

We have the Holy Spirit now for conviction of sin and the law that you keep trying to yoke people into is rendered obsolete. All of this is supported by scripture throughout the new testament. Many have pointed out many specific verses to you and to other SDA, but you either ignore it, claim we are lying or making things up, .

That's one of the many problems with creative writing - it is self conflicted

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism
 
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BobRyan

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We have the Holy Spirit now for conviction of sin and the law that you keep trying to yoke people into is rendered obsolete. All of this is supported by scripture throughout the new testament. Many have pointed out many specific verses to you and to other SDA, but you either ignore it, claim we are lying or making things up, .


Westminster Confession of Faith

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter XIX
Of the Law of God
I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[1]

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in Ten Commandments, and written in two tables:[2] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[3]

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[4] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[5] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[6]

IV. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[7]

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[8] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[9] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[10]

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[21] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[22]
 
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bekkilyn

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Ahh yes that is true. And that purpose is "doctrine, correction and instruction in righteousness" 2 Tim 3:16

That's the *general* purpose of scripture and no one has disagreed with it, but that doesn't mean you just randomly cherry-pick out verses and apply them to just anything without any regard to context or why the *specific* verses/passages/manuscripts were written. To do so is not very instructional, or doctrinally correct. And to misuse God's name by intentionally doing so probably wouldn't be very righteous either since you would be contorting scripture for the purpose of deceiving people.

Jesus himself, the *living* Word of God, is our Lord and Savior and we are to trust him and seek his will in everything. No jot or tittle of the law can save you or keep you saved. Only Jesus can. If you think you need more than Jesus, then your trust in him may be lacking.
 
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BobRyan

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Please read the paragraph below from the Baptist Confession, you may want to reconsider your post claiming that "just BobRyan" or "Just SDAs" know of this basic Bible detail.

The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Section 19

19. The Law of God
  1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

  2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

  3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.


  4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.


  5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.


  6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.


  7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.
 
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bekkilyn

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Need to remember that it is all of Christendom that admits the glaringly obvious Bible detail that the TEN are included in the MORAL LAW of God written on the heart under the NC... not "just SDAs"

So the Westminster Confession of Faith somehow applies to ALL of Christendom? News to me. :)

Also, there is a big difference between what the Westminster Confession states in part VI vs. what SDA seems to be stating. The Confession says that true believers are not under or condemned by the law, but only that it is useful to them. Under SDA doctrine, we are only saved if we diligently keep the law, apparently since we can't trust that Jesus is enough and that he was telling the truth when he said, "It is finished."
 
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Karola

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  1. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
Do not bring your servant into judgement for no one living is righteous before you Psalms143:2
 
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bekkilyn

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Please read the paragraph below from the Baptist Confession, you may want to reconsider your post claiming that "just BobRyan" or "Just SDAs" know of this basic Bible detail.

The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

Section 19

19. The Law of God
  1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

  2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

  3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.


  4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.


  5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.


  6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.


  7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

So which Baptists does this confession apply to? Baptist churches nowadays are relatively independent and do not have any common confessions of faith they all adhere to. Even those that are loosely bound together under a conference are still pretty independent and make decisions based on their local church. If you go to their websites and look at their doctrines, they are basing everything on their interpretation of scripture and not on some document someone wrote centuries ago. They would look at you like you were insane if you informed them they were obligated to some document they've never heard of and has little to nothing to do with their own church history.
 
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Benjamin Calvary

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Under SDA doctrine, we are only saved if we diligently keep the law, apparently since we can't trust that Jesus is enough and that he was telling the truth when he said, "It is finished."
That is a disingenuous caricature of what BobRyan stated. Please demonstrate where BobRyan, or any SDA on this whole forum said, "we are only saved if we diligently keep the law".

Rubbish. I know Seventh-day Adventist theology, and it says no such thing, anywhere, in any of the official declarations or position.

When Jesus said, "It is finished", it refers to laying the foundation (himself) the cornerstone perfectly. The first portion (courtyard service; Psalms 77:13) was done. Now the rest of the Temple had to be raised:

1Co_3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1Pe_2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Jesus was specifically referencing the fulfillment of his "vows" to the Father, which was made in eternity, known as the covenant of life and peace (Malachi 2:5) or the Eternal and Everlasting (new) Covenant, which was ratified by the blood of Jesus at Calvary and later by the Father upon Jesus ascension.

Psa_116:14 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people.
Psa_116:18 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people,

What is more amazing is that 'christianity' today thinks 'Jesus' without "obe(dience)" to the Ten Commandments (John 14:15; Exodus 20:6) is 'enough'. Simply self-righteousness, and a self-made law, which has not the character of Jesus, since the Ten Commandments are the written transcript of God's character, Exodus 33:12-23, 34:1-9, 20:5,6; Psalms 40:8.
 
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Benjamin Calvary

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Do not bring your servant into judgement for no one living is righteous before you Psalms143:2
Psa 143:10 Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.
 
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Karola

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What is more amazing is that 'christianity' today thinks 'Jesus' without "obe(dience)" to the Ten Commandments (John 14:15; Exodus 20:6) is 'enough'. Simply self-righteousness, and a self-made law, which has not the character of Jesus, since the Ten Commandments are the written transcript of God's character, Exodus 33:12-23, 34:1-9, 20:5,6; Psalms 40:8.
Do you obey the ten commandments?
 
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mmksparbud

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Under SDA doctrine, we are only saved if we diligently keep the law, apparently since we can't trust that Jesus is enough and that he was telling the truth when he said, "It is finished."


There you go again--you guys just take turns at making this stuff up. We have repeatedly said the you can keep the 10 all you want--they will not save you!! We are saved by the grace of God---we keep the 10 because we are saved not in order to be saved--have said that so many times my fingers are cramping.
Is the font size big enough for you all to see this time?? You haven't seen it the other times.
 
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Karola

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There you go again--you guys just take turns at making this stuff up. We have repeatedly said the you can keep the 10 all you want--they will not save you!! We are saved by the grace of God---we keep the 10 because we are saved not in order to be saved--have said that so many times my fingers are cramping.
Is the font size big enough for you all to see this time?? You haven't seen it the other times.
Wouldn't it be better to say, you try and fail to keep the ten commandments, not you keep the ten commandments? Isn't that more honest a statement?
 
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bekkilyn

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That is a disingenuous caricature of what BobRyan stated. Please demonstrate where BobRyan, or any SDA on this whole forum said, "we are only saved if we diligently keep the law".

Rubbish. I know Seventh-day Adventist theology, and it says no such thing, anywhere, in any of the official declarations or position.

So can you regularly break the fourth commandment in the manner SDA defines the fourth commandment and still be in a saved state?

When Jesus said, "It is finished", it refers to laying the foundation (himself) the cornerstone perfectly. The first portion (courtyard service; Psalms 77:13) was done. Now the rest of the Temple had to be raised:

1Co_3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1Pe_2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Jesus was specifically referencing the fulfillment of his "vows" to the Father, which was made in eternity, known as the covenant of life and peace (Malachi 2:5) or the Eternal and Everlasting (new) Covenant, which was ratified by the blood of Jesus at Calvary and later by the Father upon Jesus ascension.

Psa_116:14 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people.
Psa_116:18 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people,

Yes, Jesus fulfilled his purpose for coming to earth, which includes BUT NOT LIMITED TO fulfilling the purpose of the old covenant that includes the ten commandments.

What is more amazing is that 'christianity' today thinks 'Jesus' without "obe(dience)" to the Ten Commandments (John 14:15; Exodus 20:6) is 'enough'. Simply self-righteousness, and a self-made law, which has not the character of Jesus, since the Ten Commandments are the written transcript of God's character, Exodus 33:12-23, 34:1-9, 20:5,6; Psalms 40:8.

God's character is not limited to a set of only ten laws inscribed in stone tablets for a particular purpose. We are obedient to Jesus by putting our trust in him and seeking his will in all things through his gift of the Holy Spirit.
 
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bekkilyn

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There you go again--you guys just take turns at making this stuff up. We have repeatedly said the you can keep the 10 all you want--they will not save you!! We are saved by the grace of God---we keep the 10 because we are saved not in order to be saved--have said that so many times my fingers are cramping.
Is the font size big enough for you all to see this time?? You haven't seen it the other times.

But you can't *keep* your saved state unless you follow them, correct? And that includes the Saturday sabbath. Because if you don't diligently observe the Saturday sabbath, then you are living in a state of willful transgression of the law. Hence, if you don't follow the law, you aren't saved and therefore need the law in order to *be* saved. So somehow his grace isn't enough.
 
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Benjamin Calvary

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So can you regularly break the fourth commandment in the manner SDA defines the fourth commandment and still be in a saved state?...
That is apples to oranges. You stated: "Under SDA doctrine, we are only saved if we diligently keep the law, apparently since we can't trust that Jesus is enough and that he was telling the truth when he said, "It is finished.""

Salvation, of the sinner, comes by God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:4-8). It cannot be earned by any method.

Loss of salvation is another matter. You committed the fallacy of bait and switch.
 
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Benjamin Calvary

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There you go again--you guys just take turns at making this stuff up. We have repeatedly said the you can keep the 10 all you want--they will not save you!! We are saved by the grace of God---we keep the 10 because we are saved not in order to be saved--have said that so many times my fingers are cramping.
Is the font size big enough for you all to see this time?? You haven't seen it the other times.
Amen.

And no, it will not be big or loud enough ...
 
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bekkilyn

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That is apples to oranges. You stated: "Under SDA doctrine, we are only saved if we diligently keep the law, apparently since we can't trust that Jesus is enough and that he was telling the truth when he said, "It is finished.""

Salvation, of the sinner, comes by God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:4-8). It cannot be earned by any method.

Loss of salvation is another matter. You committed the fallacy of bait and switch.

So Jesus really didn't justify ALL sin then? You're only good up until the moment you are originally justified and then if you don't diligently follow the ten commandments in the exact manner that SDA requires, you have lost your salvation and have to start all over again?

It's funny when people quote Ephesians 2:8-10 on one side and then on the other side say that we have to earn our continued salvation by following law.
 
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Benjamin Calvary

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God's character is not limited to a set of only ten laws inscribed in stone tablets for a particular purpose. We are obedient to Jesus by putting our trust in him and seeking his will in all things through his gift of the Holy Spirit.
God's character is indeed 'limited' to 'no sin', which is exactly what the transcription of His character is in the Ten Commandments, as cited to you: Exodus 33:12-23, 34:1-9, 20:5,6; Psalms 40:8.

His "will" is found in Psalms 40:8.

Therefore, when you speak of the word "will" (of God) to what specific definition are you referring to?

The Holy Ghost is only given to them that "obey" him:

Act_5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

For instance, see the perfect Man, filled perfectly with the Holy Ghost, and His perfect walk:

Luk 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
Luk 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Jesus kept the sabbath of the LORD (His Father). Jesus said (John 14:15, Exodus 20:6).
 
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