SDA Question

Cliff2 said:

Even after I have showed you all the Sabvbath keeping texts in the New Testament you say this.

You even say that the keeping of Sunday did not come in until 135 AD. So what did all the apostles keep. To me they kept the 7th day. Paul says he kept the Sabbath, Jesus kept the Sabbath, why should I keep another day?

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Jesus kept all 613 points of the Law perfectly. Paul does not say he kept the Sabbath, scripture says Paul ministered to the Jews on the Sabbath where they were gathered it does not say he kept a Jewish day. In fact the only time we see the Apostles gather together is the first day. We do not see the Apostles gathered on the Sabbath, what we see is Paul witnessing to Jews and then gathering with the Apostles on the first day. You have not shown a single Sabbath keeping text in the New Testament in fact most of the texts you quote disprove Sabbath keeping but you try and twist the words to make them Sabbath keeping texts.

Airdude said:

I also worship on Sunday and Monday and Tuesday...
The Apostles were fine people, but I use Jesus as my ultimate example.

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Fallacious argument here. Jesus kept all 613 points of the law with perfection. If you are using Jesus as your example then you are under the Law because Christ was under the Law.

So are you saying that we should be more like the Amish?

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Once again you are resorting to Orthodox Jewish legalism.

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No I am not resorting to legalism. Show me in scripture where it is allright to cause others to sin. Paul even says he would stop eating meat forever if it caused a brother to sin. You are claiming it is allright for your actions to cause another to sin and that is not only against scripture but unsupportable even outside of scripture. Please use scripture only to show where it is allright to cause others to sin.

Airdude said:

Yes He did didn't He. You conveniently left out the fact that the Ceremonial Law was still in effect during His lifetime up untill His death on the Cross. You refuse to acknowledge the separation of the Moral and Ceremonial Laws.

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You use Christ's Sabbath keeping as an example regardless of the tons of scripture that disprove it. Of course he kept the Sabbath, he kept all the Law so your argument falls flat.

I fail to see where I am causing someone else to sin. I can not cause you to sin, that would be your'e choice. Of course there is not any scripture encouraging others to sin.

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You are still profiting from the sin of others by doing the things I have listed. Yet as predicted you try to explain it away. You are at the very least using the profits of sin for your own convience and furthermore possibly causing others to sin. All you do is explain and justify your actions. Show me scripture where using the profits of sin is allright. It is sinful to work on the Sabbath according to you but you are more than willing to use the results of other's sin and simply explain away your actions. Your argument for the Sabbath falls flat there as well as you really don't care about others keeping the Sabbath only that you do and that somehow makes you better.

I can not be held accountable for what some of my SDA brothers and sisters may or may not be doing on the Sabbath. It is none of my business. It is between them and God. You and I have no business judging them. That is for God to do.

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If they promote the Sabbath as necessary then it is our business to point out there error. We are all members of the church correct? We are all members of the body of Christ are we not? By your own logic you have no business judging what any of us do on the Sabbath so you cannot rightly promote Sabbath keeping. Check out Matthew 18 sometime before you tell us that we are not to judge. You and your bretheren are preaching a false Sabbath on which you can use the benefits of other's sin with impunity. Go ahead and try to back that with scripture.

By your own logic you have no business judging what any of us do on the Sabbath so you cannot rightly promote Sabbath keeping. Check out Matthew 18 sometime before you tell us that we are not to judge. You and your bretheren are preaching a false Sabbath on which you can use the benefits of other's sin with impunity. Go ahead and try to back that with scripture.

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Who's judging here? I'm not judging you or anyone else. I am merely stating my beliefs. How is this any different from what you are doing. Like I said before, judgement is for God.

Hi all

As can be seen this thread started out as a thread on questions about the SDA,

They have refused to answer any questions claiming we are actually trying to set a trap for them by asking them to show that their extra biblical writings and visions of their prophet can be supported by the Bible,

And have, as usual, turned the thread into another platform to preach the gospel of their first love, The Sabbath, Which is what happens when talking with any SDA, From the Abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, And all the SDA's can do is say Sabbath Sabbath Sabbath,

They are using the same tactics as they have used on the last several hundred pages of Sabbath threads on this forum,

After being told who knows how many times that we do not believe that Sunday is the Sabbath and is holy still they demand over and over to prove from the Bible that Sunday is the Sabbath and is binding on believers today,

They refuse to answer why there are no commandments or instructions for proper Sabbath keeping in the New Testament, The best Cliff can do is say that the reason there are no instructions is because all the Pagan Gentiles coming into the church already knew about the Sabbath and how to keep it, No instructions for proper Sabbath keeping were necessary,

Now there is an honest answer eh?

They refuse to acknowledge the plain verses in the New Testament that teach that The Sabbath is no longer binding on the believer today and that even in the original languages that Col2:16 is most explicit in mentioning the weekly Sabbath day as no longer a commandment along with New Moons and Feast days,

Ask them questions and they refuse to answer but they expect you to answer and prove every little detail that they ask,

We have followed the scripture in dealing with the SDA's,

1jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

We have put their prophetess to the test and she has failed miserably,

Paul well describes the SDA church well,

1ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

1ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Considering the manner that the SDA's use in spreading their " Gospel" of the Third Angels message I believe it time to apply the rest of what scripture calls for when dealing with such as these,

*** 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

*** 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

2jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

I think it is time to bid the Adventists farewell but not God speed, This is what we did on the last Sabbath thread because the SDA's refused to answer questions about themselves and their peculiar Prophetess, They were left twiddling their thumbs and talking to themselves,

So I suggest we do same here, No body is really that interested in what they have to say anymore because they have said it so many times anyway with out providing the necessary biblical or otherwise support they need to prove that on Oct 1844 the Sabbath once again became binding on all Christians and is now necessary for salvation,

Another Gospel that is not the same Gospel that our Lord entrusted to us to keep and pass on to the next generation of believers [if there will be a next generation!!] and a false doctrine based on the delusions of a false prophetess and her followers because they could not admit that they were wrong and were disobedient to to the Scriptural command to not set a specific time for the return of Jesus Christ to the Earth,

yours in Christ
deu 58

I second the motion and will pray that their eyes will be opened to the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and that one day they will understand that regarding of days is no longer necessary. They indeed have my prayers but in this thread they will no longer have my debate. They have asked for for questions and then refused to answer them. When it is pointed out how problematic their Sabbath keeping practices are in light of scripture they refuse to answer. They have steered this onto the topic of the Sabbath directing attention away from the failed and false prophecies of EGW. At almost 250 posts very few of the questions posed have been answered and we have answered everything asked of us save the strawman question involving changing the Sabbath to Sunday which we do not claim. This is an excellent idea deu58 and I look forward to debating side by side with in the future.

They indeed have my prayers

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Thank you for your'e prayers. You have mine as well.

Hi all

As can be seen this thread started out as a thread on questions about the SDA,

They have refused to answer any questions claiming we are actually trying to set a trap for them by asking them to show that their extra biblical writings and visions of their prophet can be supported by the Bible,

And have, as usual, turned the thread into another platform to preach the gospel of their first love, The Sabbath, Which is what happens when talking with any SDA, From the Abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, And all the SDA's can do is say Sabbath Sabbath Sabbath,

They are using the same tactics as they have used on the last several hundred pages of Sabbath threads on this forum,

After being told who knows how many times that we do not believe that Sunday is the Sabbath and is holy still they demand over and over to prove from the Bible that Sunday is the Sabbath and is binding on believers today,

They refuse to answer why there are no commandments or instructions for proper Sabbath keeping in the New Testament, The best Cliff can do is say that the reason there are no instructions is because all the Pagan Gentiles coming into the church already knew about the Sabbath and how to keep it, No instructions for proper Sabbath keeping were necessary,

Now there is an honest answer eh?

They refuse to acknowledge the plain verses in the New Testament that teach that The Sabbath is no longer binding on the believer today and that even in the original languages that Col2:16 is most explicit in mentioning the weekly Sabbath day as no longer a commandment along with New Moons and Feast days,

Ask them questions and they refuse to answer but they expect you to answer and prove every little detail that they ask,

We have followed the scripture in dealing with the SDA's, deu58

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Not at all. The Scriptures are very clear in that the 7th day of the Old Testament is still the 7th day of the New Testament.

I have shown every Sabbath text in the New Testament and not once have you or anyone shown to me from the Bible that it is not binding.

You use verses that do not mention the 7th day Sabbath at all.

I have said to you either here or on another forum that if you have a problem with EGW/SOP then email the EGW Estate and they will only be too happy to answer your questions. They have resources there that I do not have.

This and every forum that you contribute to is against EGW/SDA's.

I suggest you follow what is in the Bible and do not get side tracked and major in minors.

Cliff2 said:

I have said to you either here or on another forum that if you have a problem with EGW/SOP then email the EGW Estate and they will only be too happy to answer your questions. They have resources there that I do not have.

This and every forum that you contribute to is against EGW/SDA's.

.

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http://www.prleap.com/pr/10252/

News Released: July 03, 2005
TMA INTERNATIONAL TRUSTS GOES AFTER SEVENTH-day ADVENTIST CHURCH



(PRLEAP.COM) The Adventist Health System [East & West], owned and controlled by the Seventh-day Adventist Church (AH), is potentially facing bankruptcy for the role of its Hospitals in the largest Medicaid / Medicare Fraud Case in History. Adventist Health Hospitals from Hawaii to Florida have been participating in massive Federal Funding Fraud involving the States they operate in and the fraud amounts to Hundreds of Billions of Dollars. The criminal enterprise has two levels, one that goes back to 1974, and, a second one that goes back to 1999. TMA International Trusts (TMAIT) has the evidence as the federal legal standing to recover the funds.

The two fraudulent schemes together create for AH joint & several, statutory liability [excluding penalties & fines] that exceeds Two Trillion Dollars ($2,000,000,000,000.00) in the States where they operate Hospitals. Due to the fact that the States have legal immunity under the Federal Recovery Statutes, AH will certainly not be able to meet its portion of the liability if sued, which can get all the way to the Church and Church assets.

TMAIT attempted to speak with Church leader Jan Paulsen but he did not return any calls. It appears that AH feels they are above the law. They will soon find out that even The Church is not above the law when it comes to Federal Funding Fraud. On top of the Fraud associated with Medicaid & Medicare the AH Hospitals have been committing thousands of federal felonies associated with violating “Patient Rights.” TMAIT is the “Private Attorney General” or “Relator” in charge of recovery and they hate to put a Church into bankruptcy, however, “this is a serious fraud and cannot be tolerated,” said a TMAIT spokesperson.

TMAIT regrets the situation as it relates to Church Members as they have nothing to do with the problem. It is a management problem that stems from reckless and negligent conduct on the part of Hospital Management.


TMAIT Public Affairs




You mean I should contact these people who lead your church for the truth????? You gotta be joking, Bye Bye Cliff,

yours in Christ
deu 58

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=17066344&posted=1#post17066344

Calling all Seventh-day Adventists, please go in and make a post at the SDA Forum from the url above.

You mean I should contact these people who lead your church for the truth????? You gotta be joking, Bye Bye Cliff,

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These people don't lead our church. They manage Adventist Health Systems. Keep your story straight.

Florida Hospital named one of America’s Best Hospitals by U.S. News & World Report
7/13/2005

Florida Hospital is honored to be the only Central Florida hospital named in three of the 2005 U.S. News & World Report’s America’s Best Hospitals lists for Neurology & Neurosurgery, Kidney Disease, and Hormonal Disorders (Diabetes and Thyroid Conditions).

This is the seventh year in a row that Florida Hospital has been ranked among the nation’s elite as one of U.S.News & World Report’s America’s Best Hospitals. This year, in all three categories, Florida Hospital treated more patients than any other hospital on the list. According to the publication, this year “hospitals had to meet a series of progressively tougher standards to be ranked.” Overall, fewer hospitals were named to the list in 2005. This year, the publication analyzed 6,007 hospitals and only 176 were qualified enough to be ranked in even a single specialty.

The 16th annual edition of U.S.News & World Report’s America’s Best Hospitals is a resource for consumers who are seeking maximum care in the diagnosis, treatment and management of a difficult medical problem. According to U.S.News & World Report, “These hospitals excel partly because their doctors perform large numbers of tricky and risky procedures. Study upon study has shown the critical role of volume.”

According to the publication, “Ranked hospitals tend to adhere more closely to advanced treatment guidelines, to incorporate new findings into patient care, and to conduct research that gives desperately ill patients more options.”

In 12 of the 17 specialties, a hospital must first meet one of three standards to be considered: membership in the Council of Teaching Hospitals (COTH), affiliation with a medical school, or at least nine technology services out of a prescribed list of 17. In each specialty, a hospital must perform a given number of procedures or be cited by at least one physician in the past three years of U.S.News & World report surveys. These hospitals received a score that equally weighs reputation, mortality, and a group of care-related factors such as nursing.

For a complete list of the rankings, go to www.usnews.com.

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Don't let deu scare you, Adventist Health runs some of the best healthcare organizations in the world.

Airdude said:

Don't let deu scare you, Adventist Health runs some of the best healthcare organizations in the world.

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Who paid out over 20 million last year to settle medicare fraud for just two hospitals in Florida and are under investigation for over 3 TRILLION total worth of fraud damage. Sure the doctors may be great but can you really trust the overall organization that has allowed medicare fraud dating back to the 70s? The quality of care can be the best in the world but how can a Christian defend the organization that does this? It is again the same thing we see about the Sabbath. The SDA are above the same law the rest of us must follow. They can defraud the federal system and cost every last one of us tax money but we shouldn't be scared of the and it's OK to use the fruits of other's Sabbath labor as long as they didn't work themselves. It's just more evidence against the organization as a whole.

Hello airdude

These people don't lead our church. They manage Adventist Health Systems. Keep your story straight.

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owned and controlled by the Seventh-day Adventist Church (AH),

TMAIT attempted to speak with Church leader Jan Paulsen but he did not return any calls

Airdude said:

Don't let deu scare you, Adventist Health runs some of the best healthcare organizations in the world.

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On top of the Fraud associated with Medicaid & Medicare the AH Hospitals have been committing thousands of federal felonies associated with violating “Patient Rights

Hey airdude no need to tell me , Tell it to the organization that is going to sue your church,

Honesty, Credibility and integrity, Sabbath or Sunday keeping can not give you these things, Your organization is no better or no worse than anyother,

I have been searching for a 501 organization to attach our ministry to and it is very hard these days because of current Government investigations into rampant fraud commited by many Not for Profit Foundations and Ministries,

My point here is Cliff says contact your higher ups to find out the truth, May as well call the Vatican to find out the truth about Maryology and Hinn ministries to find out the truth about the Gifts of healing and Prophecy eh?

yours in Christ
deu 58

http://tmaittma.com/prod2.html

Check this out and it looks like every hospital in America is in the same boat.

http://tmaittma.com/prod2.html

http://tmaittma.com/prod2.html

Check this out and it looks like every hospital in America is in the same boat.

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Very interesting. Things are not always as they appear on the surface. It would be best to get the whole story before singling out one organization.

hi SDA people, i would not argue like everyone else here. i was ignorant about the Sabbath and you make sense. my family and i started have Sabath day on Saturday. God bless you for the truth.

By the way, i believe Jesus does not approve of us christians to kill anyone even for self defence. i hope you fight against this, too. then i consider joining your church.

sincerely

BrightCandle said:

Here is a simple illustration: Adam and Eve kept the Sabbath before they sinned, and after they sinnned, and were cast out of the Garden of Eden. The children of Israel and the law of Moses did not exist at that time, but they kept the Sabbath.

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In all seriousness, I would still like to know where Adventists find this in scripture? (and I am ,becoming was, a 4th generation SDA, 14 years of school, got the t-shirt, yada, yada.)