• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

SDA Question

Status
Not open for further replies.

Cliff2

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2004
3,831
63
74
✟26,993.00
Faith
SDA
Airdude said:
Very interesting. Things are not always as they appear on the surface. It would be best to get the whole story before singling out one organization.

Good point.

It looks like that just about every hospital is in the same boat, every church run hospital.

I see RCC, Methodists and many others there along the the USA's President's brother.

I would suggest that deu58 look at the whole picture and get the facts before he and others launch into a crusade against the SDA Church.
 
Upvote 0

Cliff2

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2004
3,831
63
74
✟26,993.00
Faith
SDA
Cliff2 said:
http://tmaittma.com/prod2.html

Check this out and it looks like every hospital in America is in the same boat.

"TMAIT, in its capacity as “Relator” or “Private Attorney General” discovered Hospitals in all 50 States and D.C. have NOT been complying with PART 482’s mandatory disclosure requirement [CoP] necessary for Hospitals to be eligible for Medicare & Medicaid. The disclosure requirement was made mandatory by CMS in 1999 after HHS, HCFA & OCR [Office of Civil Rights] signed a Multi-Agency Policy Letter adopting the Policy as part of Patient Rights in Part 482 CFR, interpreted and defined under 482.13 as published in the Federal Register, made mandatory by CMS on Hospitals. From the CMS Document:

“Patients' Rights CoP was separated from the larger package of hospital CoPs and published separately in the Federal Register as an Interim Final Rule on July 2, 1999. Its provisions became effective on August 2, 1999. See 42 CFR 416.40-416.49 & 42 CFR 482.13.)”

HHS, CMS & OCR had “NO Knowledge” about Hospitals not providing the required disclosure. TMAIT investigated the Medicaid Programs in all 50 States and the District of Columbia discovering massive criminal fraud, intentional violations of citizens’ federally protected rights, millions of federal felonies, corruption inside HHS, the AHA, State Hospital Associations, and corruption inside some States all the way to the Governor.

In addition, TMAIT has four written HHS Directives sent to the States between 1998 and 2001 instructing each state to make sure their Medicaid forms have the “Privacy Act” Disclosure as it is mandatory, and if they do not have it to immediately modify their forms and include the Privacy Act Disclosure. 38 States and D.C. were out of compliance when TMAIT did its investigation and the federal government had no knowledge."

I do not condone or support anything that is illegal but in this case it may well only be a techinical oversight. It may go deeper than that, I do not know.
 
Upvote 0

Airdude

Regular Member
May 31, 2005
327
13
63
Tacoma
✟23,618.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The following link backs up the credibility of Adventist Health Systems-Sunbelt.

http://orlando.bizjournals.com/orlando/stories/2005/06/27/daily25.html

The link below is a letter from the American Hospital Association to the FBI regarding extortion of hospitals by TMAIT. TMAIT has been threatening hospitals all over this country. The person heading up this extortion is a convicted criminal. If you do a Google search you will not find this story from any reputable news service. It's amazing how lies take on a life of their own!
You will need acrobat reader to view it.

http://www.aha.org/aha/advocacy-grassroots/advocacy/agencyletters/content/Muelerlet71105.pdf

It's always a good idea to get the whole story if you are interested in truth!
The people who are responsible for this are known criminals and should be held accountable for their actions.:sick:

Have a good day everyone.:D
 
Upvote 0

deu58

Senior Veteran
Dec 12, 2003
3,099
75
69
Philippines
Visit site
✟26,169.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hello air dude

Airdude said:
The following link backs up the credibility of Adventist Health Systems-Sunbelt.

http://orlando.bizjournals.com/orlando/stories/2005/06/27/daily25.html

The link below is a letter from the American Hospital Association to the FBI regarding extortion of hospitals by TMAIT. TMAIT has been threatening hospitals all over this country. The person heading up this extortion is a convicted criminal. If you do a Google search you will not find this story from any reputable news service. It's amazing how lies take on a life of their own!
You will need acrobat reader to view it.

http://www.aha.org/aha/advocacy-grassroots/advocacy/agencyletters/content/Muelerlet71105.pdf

It's always a good idea to get the whole story if you are interested in truth!
The people who are responsible for this are known criminals and should be held accountable for their actions.:sick:

Have a good day everyone.:D

I have acrobat and still can not get the page to open, I tried to Google TMAIT and Bill Lovern and found nothing regarding any Criminal allegations regarding Tmait or Bill Lovern.

What I did find is that he has quite a few hospitals and politcians worried, They are really rocking the medcaid medicare boat, Convicted crimanal or not they filing various cases with the supreme court,

Medi caid/insurance fraud is not anything new to the SDA medical system,


sealdoj.gif



ADVENTIST HEALTH SYSTEM, HOSPITALS, AMBULANCE COMPANIES
TO PAY U.S. MORE THAN $20 MILLION TO SETTLE FRAUD CLAIMS



WASHINGTON, D.C. - Winter Park, Florida-based Adventist Health System Sunbelt Healthcare Corporation, three affiliated hospitals and a management company that administered ambulance operations at the three hospitals have agreed to pay the U.S. $20.3 million to settle allegations that they overcharged Medicare, the Justice Department and the Department of Health and Human Services announced today. The government alleged that the charged were for ambulance transports for patients which were not medically necessary.

The government further alleged that Regional Emergency Services and the hospitals created false physician certifications regarding the medical necessity of ambulance transports operated by the hospitals and submitted or caused to be submitted claims to Medicare. The suit alleges that the false claims were submitted during 1993 through 2000 in the case of Florida Hospital Waterman and Metroplex Adventist Hospital, and 1993 through 1997 in the case of Huguley Memorial Medical Center.

"This settlement again demonstrates the United States’ commitment to protecting federal funds from fraud and abuse," said Peter D. Keisler, Assistant Attorney General in charge of the Civil Division.

The settlement resolves claims brought under the qui tam or whistleblower provisions of the False Claims Act in United States ex rel. Mulligan v. Florida Hospital Waterman, Inc., and Florida Regional Emergency Medical Services (M.D. Fla.), and will also cover certain allegations by a relator in United States ex rel. Wightman v. Laidlaw, Inc., et al. (W.D. Tex.). Under the False Claims Act, private individuals who bring suits against companies can receive between 15 and 25 percent of the recovery in a case in which the government intervenes.

Kevin Mulligan, who was employed by Florida Hospital Waterman as an emergency medical technician, will receive approximately $1.9 million dollars as his part of the settlement. Adam Wightman will be awarded approximately half a million dollars.

The case was conducted by the Civil Division of the Department of Justice.

Yours in Christ
deu 58
 
Upvote 0

Airdude

Regular Member
May 31, 2005
327
13
63
Tacoma
✟23,618.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Deu, Here it is in notepad format. I couldn't find a way to put it into a word document. It's all there though.

Robert S. Mueller III
July 11, 2005
Page 1
July 11, 2005
Robert S. Mueller III
Director
Federal Bureau of Investigation
J. Edgar Hoover Building
935 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20535-0001
Dear Director Mueller:
On behalf of its members and itself, the American Hospital Association (AHA) is
requesting that the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) immediately undertake a
thorough and complete investigation of the activities and statements of Bill Lovern and
TMA International Trusts, the purported international company of which Mr. Lovern
states he is vice chairman. Mr. Lovern/TMA International Trusts have engaged in
threatening and harassing behavior toward hospitals across the country over a period of
several months. Mr. Lovern has sent demand letters to and made e-mail and telephone
contacts with hospitals in which he offers to forgo bringing False Claims Act (FCA) and
Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) litigation in exchange for
payment of large sums of money. To respond to these written, e-mail and telephonic
threats, hospitals and their trade associations nationwide have been forced to devote
substantial time and resources. In addition, the threats have taken an emotional toll on
many hospital and association staff.
The conduct of Mr. Lovern is so egregious that we believe it should be criminally
prosecuted. Indeed, we note that Mr. Lovern has two prior criminal convictions for
making threats and has engaged in similar harassment campaigns against other industries
and corporations. We therefore request that the FBI fully investigate Mr. Lovern’s
conduct and make all appropriate referrals for subsequent prosecution, including possibly
for extortion.
The AHA began receiving telephone calls and e-mails regarding Mr. Lovern’s threats to
its members in May 2005. Individual hospitals and state hospital associations have told
us that Mr. Lovern had written to and/or called them over a period of several months. In
addition, the AHA and its outside counsel have been contacted directly by Mr. Lovern
Robert S. Mueller III
July 11, 2005
Page 2
many times. We will be happy to provide a detailed chronology and description of the
various contacts by Mr. Lovern at your request. In order to provide a basis for
immediately opening an investigation, however, we are attaching copies of (1) a demand
letter from Mr. Lovern, (2) proposed settlement terms, including dollar amounts, sent to a
hospital and state hospital association by Mr. Lovern and (3) several “press releases”
from his purported company. (The “press releases” also can be found on the TMA
International Trusts Web site: www.tmaittma.com/.) We also would be happy to have inhouse
and outside counsel for the AHA speak with someone on your staff to answer any
questions or provide additional information.
A review of the correspondence from Mr. Lovern shows that it contains a series of
baseless allegations. His convoluted, attenuated and totally flawed theory is based on the
notion that hospitals are providing state Medicaid application forms to patients that do
not contain necessary disclosures regarding the collection and use of Social Security
numbers. He then incorrectly asserts that this results in hospitals violating the Medicare
rules regarding patient privacy rights and the FCA.
We are confident that there is no validity to any of Mr. Lovern’s allegations and have so
advised our members. Nevertheless, it has cost us and individual hospitals valuable time
and money to evaluate his contentions and make that determination. This time and
money could have been much better spent on such things as patient care.
Mr. Lovern continues to make contact with hospitals around the country. Just last Friday,
he called a hospital system in Washington state threatening loss of Medicare
accreditation. He has been making various threats against this hospital system for more
than two months. We would like to ensure that Mr. Lovern is stopped from making such
threats in the future since some hospitals will waste valuable time and resources making
an independent determination regarding the validity of Mr. Lovern’s allegations. In
addition, individuals who take Mr. Lovern’s calls continue to feel harassed and anxious.
We discussed this matter last week with lawyers for the Department of Justice, who
suggested that we refer it to the FBI for investigation. We understand that there may
have been prior requests, at the local level, for an FBI investigation, but are not aware
that any investigation has been undertaken or any referral made for prosecution. In any
event, we believe that Mr. Lovern’s conduct – which is national in scope – merits
attention at the national level. Therefore, we are directing this request to you.
As previously mentioned, Mr. Lovern has at least two prior criminal convictions. One
was a federal conviction for threatening an agent of the Internal Revenue Service. We
also have learned that Mr. Lovern was convicted last month in Anne Arundel County,
Maryland of two counts of telephone misuse (the use of telephone facilities and
equipment for repeated calls, with intent to annoy, abuse, torment, harass and embarrass)
and there is a sentencing hearing scheduled for him late in July. These convictions

Robert S. Mueller III
July 11, 2005
Page 3
demonstrate that Mr. Lovern’s actions are not harmless, but rather pose a menace that
merits prosecution.
Please advise us of your response to this request and let us know if there is additional
information we can provide. For additional information, feel free to contact Melinda R.
Hatton, vice president and chief Washington counsel, at (202) 626-2336. Thank you for
your attention to this matter.
Sincerely,
/s/
Richard J. Pollack
Executive Vice President
Attachments
cc: Alberto R. Gonzales, Attorney General

Robert S. Mueller III
July 11, 2005
Page 4
 
Upvote 0

Cliff2

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2004
3,831
63
74
✟26,993.00
Faith
SDA
Airdude said:
Deu, Here it is in notepad format. I couldn't find a way to put it into a word document. It's all there though.

Robert S. Mueller III
July 11, 2005
Page 1
July 11, 2005
Robert S. Mueller III
Director
Federal Bureau of Investigation
J. Edgar Hoover Building
935 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20535-0001
Dear Director Mueller:
On behalf of its members and itself, the American Hospital Association (AHA) is
requesting that the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) immediately undertake a
thorough and complete investigation of the activities and statements of Bill Lovern and
TMA International Trusts, the purported international company of which Mr. Lovern
states he is vice chairman. Mr. Lovern/TMA International Trusts have engaged in
threatening and harassing behavior toward hospitals across the country over a period of
several months. Mr. Lovern has sent demand letters to and made e-mail and telephone
contacts with hospitals in which he offers to forgo bringing False Claims Act (FCA) and
Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) litigation in exchange for
payment of large sums of money. To respond to these written, e-mail and telephonic
threats, hospitals and their trade associations nationwide have been forced to devote
substantial time and resources. In addition, the threats have taken an emotional toll on
many hospital and association staff.
The conduct of Mr. Lovern is so egregious that we believe it should be criminally
prosecuted. Indeed, we note that Mr. Lovern has two prior criminal convictions for
making threats and has engaged in similar harassment campaigns against other industries
and corporations. We therefore request that the FBI fully investigate Mr. Lovern’s
conduct and make all appropriate referrals for subsequent prosecution, including possibly
for extortion.
The AHA began receiving telephone calls and e-mails regarding Mr. Lovern’s threats to
its members in May 2005. Individual hospitals and state hospital associations have told
us that Mr. Lovern had written to and/or called them over a period of several months. In
addition, the AHA and its outside counsel have been contacted directly by Mr. Lovern
Robert S. Mueller III
July 11, 2005
Page 2
many times. We will be happy to provide a detailed chronology and description of the
various contacts by Mr. Lovern at your request. In order to provide a basis for
immediately opening an investigation, however, we are attaching copies of (1) a demand
letter from Mr. Lovern, (2) proposed settlement terms, including dollar amounts, sent to a
hospital and state hospital association by Mr. Lovern and (3) several “press releases”
from his purported company. (The “press releases” also can be found on the TMA
International Trusts Web site: www.tmaittma.com/.) We also would be happy to have inhouse
and outside counsel for the AHA speak with someone on your staff to answer any
questions or provide additional information.
A review of the correspondence from Mr. Lovern shows that it contains a series of
baseless allegations. His convoluted, attenuated and totally flawed theory is based on the
notion that hospitals are providing state Medicaid application forms to patients that do
not contain necessary disclosures regarding the collection and use of Social Security
numbers. He then incorrectly asserts that this results in hospitals violating the Medicare
rules regarding patient privacy rights and the FCA.
We are confident that there is no validity to any of Mr. Lovern’s allegations and have so
advised our members. Nevertheless, it has cost us and individual hospitals valuable time
and money to evaluate his contentions and make that determination. This time and
money could have been much better spent on such things as patient care.
Mr. Lovern continues to make contact with hospitals around the country. Just last Friday,
he called a hospital system in Washington state threatening loss of Medicare
accreditation. He has been making various threats against this hospital system for more
than two months. We would like to ensure that Mr. Lovern is stopped from making such
threats in the future since some hospitals will waste valuable time and resources making
an independent determination regarding the validity of Mr. Lovern’s allegations. In
addition, individuals who take Mr. Lovern’s calls continue to feel harassed and anxious.
We discussed this matter last week with lawyers for the Department of Justice, who
suggested that we refer it to the FBI for investigation. We understand that there may
have been prior requests, at the local level, for an FBI investigation, but are not aware
that any investigation has been undertaken or any referral made for prosecution. In any
event, we believe that Mr. Lovern’s conduct – which is national in scope – merits
attention at the national level. Therefore, we are directing this request to you.
As previously mentioned, Mr. Lovern has at least two prior criminal convictions. One
was a federal conviction for threatening an agent of the Internal Revenue Service. We
also have learned that Mr. Lovern was convicted last month in Anne Arundel County,
Maryland of two counts of telephone misuse (the use of telephone facilities and
equipment for repeated calls, with intent to annoy, abuse, torment, harass and embarrass)
and there is a sentencing hearing scheduled for him late in July. These convictions

Robert S. Mueller III
July 11, 2005
Page 3
demonstrate that Mr. Lovern’s actions are not harmless, but rather pose a menace that
merits prosecution.
Please advise us of your response to this request and let us know if there is additional
information we can provide. For additional information, feel free to contact Melinda R.
Hatton, vice president and chief Washington counsel, at (202) 626-2336. Thank you for
your attention to this matter.
Sincerely,
/s/
Richard J. Pollack
Executive Vice President
Attachments
cc: Alberto R. Gonzales, Attorney General

Robert S. Mueller III
July 11, 2005
Page 4

After reading through this it seems as though we need to have a closer look at things.
 
Upvote 0

deu58

Senior Veteran
Dec 12, 2003
3,099
75
69
Philippines
Visit site
✟26,169.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hi Air Dude

Cliff2 said:
After reading through this it seems as though we need to have a closer look at things.

The convictions you speak of show that this guy may really be on to something, It is interesting to note that in the telephone abuse case there are no other charges mentioned such as false allegations or extortion,

The IRS thing even on his website he makes it plain that he is not a friend of the IRS,

Neither is he acting alone, He is the head of an organization, These kind of convictions makes him popular with the average public,

A little over a year ago there was a big strike against California grocery stores, My union and others were supporting the strikers and I went to a rally in a Vons parking lot, It was either San Pedro or Long Beach in LA,

Any way a couple of Local polticos and religious leaders participated in blocking the the doors to the store and were arrested, This is actually good publicity for them, Gets votes and shows the community at large that "We Care About you"

Seems like this guy is doing the same thing, If it is an extortion attempt it has to be strangest extortion attempt in history because he is making everything he does known to the public at their website and he is harrasing some very powerful and influential people,

The kinds of people that I am sure he knows that if they prove him wrong will see to it that he is sent to prison for a very very long time,

Could be a Lyndon LaRoche clone, It is no secret that there is massive corruption and abuse nation wide in the health care system, Looks like he and his organization want to tackle it and I say good luck to them.

For example, Are you familiar with the Legacy Helath care case involving the SDA church??

Here is a link to a site that has a couple of pages on it, I am not sure if it is an actual SDA site or a Branch Davidian, But it seems to be an SDA site in the sense that it belongs to an SDA concerned about about corruptions in the church,

On One page they claim that they have been threatened by the leadership of the southern SDA confrence to remove the information they have regarding the Legacy scandal considering that the Southern confrence leaders are the prime defendants in the case,

http://www.sdadefend.com/South-Central-update4.htm

yours in Christ
deu 58
 
Upvote 0
M

Mrs.Wildee

Guest
hi again SDA people, i started have Sabbath on Saturday because i listned to Daug Batcheler on the internet. i believe his research is truth. however he never mentioned us breaking one of the commandmants "do not kill" he never protest about christians joining the military. i know most christians excuses is that what they are doing is self defence. but Jesus and His disciples never killed anybody even for self defence in the NT. thats how i make my discernment. if you dont take military issue seriously i believe your Sabbath point is just another gimmick just like any other denominations have gimmicks.
 
Upvote 0

Airdude

Regular Member
May 31, 2005
327
13
63
Tacoma
✟23,618.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Mrs.Wildee said:
hi again SDA people, i started have Sabbath on Saturday because i listned to Daug Batcheler on the internet. i believe his research is truth. however he never mentioned us breaking one of the commandmants "do not kill" he never protest about christians joining the military. i know most christians excuses is that what they are doing is self defence. but Jesus and His disciples never killed anybody even for self defence in the NT. thats how i make my discernment. if you dont take military issue seriously i believe your Sabbath point is just another gimmick just like any other denominations have gimmicks.

Hi Mrs. Wildee,
The SDA Church is very much against killing. The church encourages those who are joining the military to do so with "Non combatant" status. In vietnam most SDAs who were drafted worked as medics and did not carry weapons.

I hope this helps. Have a great day.
 
Upvote 0
M

Mrs.Wildee

Guest
Airdude said:
Hi Mrs. Wildee,
The SDA Church is very much against killing. The church encourages those who are joining the military to do so with "Non combatant" status. In vietnam most SDAs who were drafted worked as medics and did not carry weapons.

I hope this helps. Have a great day.

when i listened his seminar i got the feeling he was seeking every one's approval. i believe thats why he never mentioned military isssue. we should seek His face not anybody else.
 
Upvote 0

Cliff2

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2004
3,831
63
74
✟26,993.00
Faith
SDA
Mrs.Wildee said:
hi again SDA people, i started have Sabbath on Saturday because i listned to Daug Batcheler on the internet. i believe his research is truth. however he never mentioned us breaking one of the commandmants "do not kill" he never protest about christians joining the military. i know most christians excuses is that what they are doing is self defence. but Jesus and His disciples never killed anybody even for self defence in the NT. thats how i make my discernment. if you dont take military issue seriously i believe your Sabbath point is just another gimmick just like any other denominations have gimmicks.

Mrs Wildee

Doug Batchelor is an excellent preacher, I watch him on TV live many times a week. Doug would never suggest that we should take human life. The SDA does not support the taking of life.

If any Adventist is drafted into the military they are encouraged by the Church to join the medical side of the military.

If you go to google and type in the name of Desmond Doss you will see the most famous of all medics that served the USA in World War 11 who was an active SDA. He ended up receiving the highest honour the the USA government could give a person who would not carry a weapon and did not kill anothger person.

http://www.medalofhonor.com/DesmondDoss1.htm

"Desmond T. Doss seemed an unlikely candidate to become a war hero. As a devout member of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church, he would not drill or train on Saturday because his church recognizes it as their Sabbath Day. He would not carry a gun because he believed all killing was wrong. He wouldnt even eat meat after seeing a chicken flopping around with its head cut off.

Some of the stories he recalls actually would have branded him a klutz rather than a smart, practical, and honorable leader. He did learn many valuable lessons during his childhood, though, that shaped his thinking and perhaps caused him to react the way he did during his time in the army..."


During his training he was presecuted and victimised by the Army but Doss would not break the Sabbath. It was as a young boy he learned many vital lesson that stood by him during his time in the Army.
 
Upvote 0
M

Mrs.Wildee

Guest
Cliff2 said:
Mrs Wildee

Doug Batchelor is an excellent preacher, I watch him on TV live many times a week. Doug would never suggest that we should take human life. The SDA does not support the taking of life.

If any Adventist is drafted into the military they are encouraged by the Church to join the medical side of the military.

If you go to google and type in the name of Desmond Doss you will see the most famous of all medics that served the USA in World War 11 who was an active SDA. He ended up receiving the highest honour the the USA government could give a person who would not carry a weapon and did not kill anothger person.

http://www.medalofhonor.com/DesmondDoss1.htm

"Desmond T. Doss seemed an unlikely candidate to become a war hero. As a devout member of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church, he would not drill or train on Saturday because his church recognizes it as their Sabbath Day. He would not carry a gun because he believed all killing was wrong. He wouldnt even eat meat after seeing a chicken flopping around with its head cut off.

Some of the stories he recalls actually would have branded him a klutz rather than a smart, practical, and honorable leader. He did learn many valuable lessons during his childhood, though, that shaped his thinking and perhaps caused him to react the way he did during his time in the army..."


During his training he was presecuted and victimised by the Army but Doss would not break the Sabbath. It was as a young boy he learned many vital lesson that stood by him during his time in the Army.
i agree that he gives excellent Bible interpretation. and it's so easy to understand. i just thought he should mention about us breaking one of the ten commandmants as a whole in this country. since he is making an issue out of breaking the sabbath (the fourth commandmant), he also should make big deal out of the military issue up front too (killing, the sixth commandment). if you dont you are not being consistant. Because you are not protesting about it publicly i assume you dont want to offend the majority's practice.
 
Upvote 0

Airdude

Regular Member
May 31, 2005
327
13
63
Tacoma
✟23,618.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
i agree that he gives excellent Bible interpretation. and it's so easy to understand. i just thought he should mention about us breaking one of the ten commandmants as a whole in this country. since he is making an issue out of breaking the sabbath (the fourth commandmant), he also should make big deal out of the military issue up front too (killing, the sixth commandment). if you dont you are not being consistant. Because you are not protesting about it publicly i assume you dont want to offend the majority's practice.

Even though we disagree with killing, I and many other SDAs believe that if called to serve we owe to our country to assist with the healing of the wounds of war by participating in the medical corps. With the conscientious objector status that Desmond T. Doss helped establish we are allowed to do this without ever being asked to pick up a weapon.
 
Upvote 0

Cliff2

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2004
3,831
63
74
✟26,993.00
Faith
SDA
i agree that he gives excellent Bible interpretation. and it's so easy to understand. i just thought he should mention about us breaking one of the ten commandmants as a whole in this country. since he is making an issue out of breaking the sabbath (the fourth commandmant), he also should make big deal out of the military issue up front too (killing, the sixth commandment). if you dont you are not being consistant. Because you are not protesting about it publicly i assume you dont want to offend the majority's practice. (Mrs Widlee)

Mrs Wildee

Have you seen all of his presentations. He will at some time mention that by breaking any of God's ten commandments is wrong. That each one is just as important as each other.

 
Upvote 0

deu58

Senior Veteran
Dec 12, 2003
3,099
75
69
Philippines
Visit site
✟26,169.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hello airdude,

Airdude said:
Even though we disagree with killing, I and many other SDAs believe that if called to serve we owe to our country to assist with the healing of the wounds of war by participating in the medical corps. With the conscientious objector status that Desmond T. Doss helped establish we are allowed to do this without ever being asked to pick up a weapon.

It really does not matter because you are part of the killing machine, You do not pull the trigger but you heal another knowing that the reason you are healing him/her is so that can go out and kill again,

It may give you psychological comfort but still you are just as responsible for the carnage as the front line troops,

I did not drop the bombs I just put gas in the planes that did, I did not shoot anybody I just made sure that all the ammo was delivered to the front,

War is a team effort that goes beyond the military itself, The civilian sector mans the factory to provide the necessary equipment to conduct the war,

I am not anti military, I served 6 years in the Navy myself and have an Honorable discharge, During the first Desert Storm I helped crew the ships that moved all the supplies and equipment to Saudi Arabia, I have no shame in that, We helped liberate a country that was suffering under the hands of a brutal dictator,

In world war 2 our men and women in the US stood shoulder to shoulder with other freedom loving countries and rid the world of oppresive and murderous regimes in Asia and Europe,

We did not murder them, We brought Justice to them, And it was the right thing to do, Which by scripture we are entitled to do,

It would be wonderful if we lived in a perfect and just world, But we do not, I am no fan of George Bush but I have to agree that he is right and I do support the US troops and law enforcement agencies in the war on terror,

I may not agree with every thing that they do, But I will always support our troops who go into harms way to bring justice and freedom to the oppresed,

I believe that religions such as the SDA Quaker and the JW's etc should be entitled to a religious deferment as it was in Viet Nam when the politicians and rich peoples kids got college deferments,

There is no shame in being raised in a church that is against killing of any manner and such beliefs should be respected,

But they should be thankful that there are men and women who are willing to go out and risk it all so that they can have the right to do so in peace and comfort,

yours in Christ
deu 58
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.