SDA Forum

[Cliff2]

Probably not... they engaged in vigorous debates, studied and restudied issues... they were not afraid to look at their beliefs and there were no sacred cows.... today that is not the case in all places....

When they came upon agreement that was where they stopped.

You and others here want to re-invent the wheel on CF.

We know what we believe, there is nothing wrong in asking but it seems as though you do not want to accept what the brethren has come up with which is what you accepted when you were baptized.

 

[Windmill]

Look, people, if I came off as though I'm filled with pride, it was an accident.

This is what I believe. By saying its prideful, you need to explain to me, how was what I said filled with pride? WHAT did I say?

I'm young, which means that I'M STILL GROWING.

Please stop attacking me, and rather, EXPLAIN, because I am CONFUSED. Now, I really must go, but please stop the attacks and explain how what I said was prideful? It came straight from the bible.

 

[StormyOne]

When they came upon agreement that was where they stopped.

You and others here want to re-invent the wheel on CF.

We know what we believe, there is nothing wrong in asking but it seems as though you do not want to accept what the brethren has come up with which is what you accepted when you were baptized.

Cliff when I joined the church at 9 yrs old, there were no 27 fundamental beliefs....The process of formulating and adopting statements of fundamental beliefs didn't start until the late 70's early 80s.....1980 to be exact.... I had already been a member for 10 years before they (the 27 fundies) came out....

 

[jonno]

Look, people, if I came off as though I'm filled with pride, it was an accident.

This is what I believe. By saying its prideful, you need to explain to me, how was what I said filled with pride? WHAT did I say?

I'm young, which means that I'M STILL GROWING.

Please stop attacking me, and rather, EXPLAIN, because I am CONFUSED. Now, I really must go, but please stop the attacks and explain how what I said was prideful? It came straight from the bible.[/QUOTE
Hello Windmill
People draw conclusions based on how they feel when reading posts. How you come across with your post is just as important as the facts (or lack of it) therein. Personally, I felt very sorry for you, seeing how your posts were torn to shreds. Some of it justifiably so. You are not stupid, just a bit imature in doctrinal matters at this stage. I find it amazing that people want to interprate Daniel and Revelation when they do not even understand and communicate the pure and simple Gospel. It appears and I stand corrected, that you have been heavily influenced in your understanding of the SDA church and its relation to the body of Christ. One cannot derive your interpretations simply from the bible. Don"t worry, you are not alone. There are many 'mature' sda christians who have thought the same way and have had the eyes of there hearts opened. Me being one of them.
Don't worry, God will help you understand His word if you allow Him to And not the word based on the interpretation of denominations. Understand and accept the simple things first, and God will allow the rest to follow. See everything with Jesus in focus and you can not go wrong.
It is also dissapointing to see others cheer you on when they can clearly see the loopholes in your reasoning. Unless they are of the same mind of course.
I write this post for your perusal as I love you as a sister in Christ.
Yes I can, irresspective of whether I agree with most of the 27/28 Fundamentals or not.
Please accept this post in the good spirit it was posted.
May God bless and help you.

 

[Cliff2]

Cliff when I joined the church at 9 yrs old, there were no 27 fundamental beliefs....The process of formulating and adopting statements of fundamental beliefs didn't start until the late 70's early 80s.....1980 to be exact.... I had already been a member for 10 years before they (the 27 fundies) came out....

Did you agree to the doctrines of what is on the bapsimal certificate.

They would have been very similar to the "27".

I doubt if they would have changed.

If they have tell me which of the "27" is additional ones now.

 

[StormyOne]

Did you agree to the doctrines of what is on the bapsimal certificate.

They would have been very similar to the "27".

I doubt if they would have changed.

If they have tell me which of the "27" is additional ones now.

You missed the point... and I am tired of beating this dead horse.... moving on....

 

[payattention]

Did you agree to the doctrines of what is on the bapsimal certificate.

They would have been very similar to the "27".

I doubt if they would have changed.

If they have tell me which of the "27" is additional ones now.

Cliff, do you know why the law does not hold minors to the terms of any contract? I draw your attention to Stormy's claim that he was baptised at the age of 9. That should answer all your questions.

 

[payattention]

When they came upon agreement that was where they stopped.

You and others here want to re-invent the wheel on CF.

We know what we believe, there is nothing wrong in asking but it seems as though you do not want to accept what the brethren has come up with which is what you accepted when you were baptized.

Cliff, don't you think that if we had gotten it correct so long ago that God would have returned by now? Is not the fact that we are still here "fighting the good fight of faith" sufficient evidence that at least something is off kilter? Don't we have a responsibility before God to look at the engine again to determine where it may be misfiring?

 

[payattention]

I am grieved that instruction from anyone associated with the Adventist church could produce the mindset that has gripped my sister Windmill. She only reflects what has been taught her and at this young age I can only cringe. Somebody will have to give account for this.

 

[jonno]

I am grieved that instruction from anyone associated with the Adventist church could produce the mindset that has gripped my sister Windmill. She only reflects what has been taught her and at this young age I can only cringe. Somebody will have to give account for this.

Keep her in your prayers, Payattention.... I will.

 

[Cliff2]

Cliff, don't you think that if we had gotten it correct so long ago that God would have returned by now? Is not the fact that we are still here "fighting the good fight of faith" sufficient evidence that at least something is off kilter? Don't we have a responsibility before God to look at the engine again to determine where it may be misfiring?

The leaders back then got it basically right, it is us that has left the blueprint that was given to us.

It is not their fault, it is ours, it is us that have done the wondering. Following Babylon, getting into bed with the world.

We need to look at ourselves and get a new glimse of what it means to really "follow the lamb"

 

[payattention]

The leaders back then got it basically right, it is us that has left the blueprint that was given to us.

When a bridge is basically sound you have to inspect the entire bridge unless you know exactly where the problem lies. You don't seem to know where the problem lies yet you are averse to inspecting the entire corpus. How do you know that the problem with the structure is actually foundational?

 

[SassySDA]

When a bridge is basically sound you have to inspect the entire bridge unless you know exactly where the problem lies. You don't seem to know where the problem lies yet you are averse to inspecting the entire corpus. How do you know that the problem with the structure is actually foundational?

I wouldn't know, I'm not the one that sees any problems with the "foundation" to begin with.

But keep digging, I'm sure you'll turn something up.

 

[payattention]

I wouldn't know, I'm not the one that sees any problems with the "foundation" to begin with.

But keep digging, I'm sure you'll turn something up.

So, where does that leave us? If we are still in this mess and we are not at fault, who is to blame? I think in all of this we are missing the big picture. It is not about which of us is right and which is wrong. The earth is filled with the remains of people who died on one or either side of this divide and we are still here.

 

[tall73]

I am grieved that instruction from anyone associated with the Adventist church could produce the mindset that has gripped my sister Windmill. She only reflects what has been taught her and at this young age I can only cringe. Somebody will have to give account for this.

That is a bit of a stretch there. Considering that most kids are busy engaged in pleasure at her age, let us be glad she has a burden for the word of the Lord at all. Were not most of us more rigid when we first started out? She is simply finding out a great many things. That is a good thing. She has time later to have all the doubts etc. that age sometimes brings. Let her become grounded in the essentials of the truth first, and she will have time later to look at all the nuances.

Also, age in itself is not always a teacher as we are reminded in Hebrews:

HEB 5:11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

I too see some inflexibility in Windmill, but no more than I see in myself during those first years of faith.

And this is where this conversation is proven to be detrimental. We are attacking the ones we ought to be nurturing, and dictating to ones that we have no business dictating to.

Yes, we all took an oath when we joined the church. I still stand by my oath. But that does not mean that some of the things in that oath might not be questionable as to whether they should be required.

EGW for instance said that her writings should NOT be a test of fellowship. But most of the baptismal certificates I see make them one. Should they? Why should we use her writings in a way she did not intend?

As any institution goes from movement to institution, from mission, to policy, there are those who want to tighten the reigns to make sure everyone stays in line. Why not rather energize the mission, the passion for the truth that will bring its own reform?

And I firmly believe that that reform will include investigation.

Please ponder the following statements from the 5th volume of the testimonies:

Peter exhorts his brethren to "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." Whenever the people of God are growing in grace, they will be constantly obtaining a clearer understanding of His word. They will discern new light and beauty in its sacred truths. This has been true in the history of the church in all ages, and thus it will continue to the end. But as real spiritual life declines, it has ever been the tendency to cease to advance in the knowledge of the truth. Men rest satisfied with the light already received from God's word and discourage any further
investigation of the Scriptures. They become conservative and seek to avoid discussion. {5T 706.2}
The fact that there is no controversy or agitation among God's people should not be regarded as conclusive evidence that they are holding fast to sound doctrine. There is reason to fear that they may not be clearly discriminating between truth and error. When no new questions are started by investigation of the Scriptures, when no difference of opinion arises which will set men to searching the Bible for themselves to make sure that they have the truth, there will be many now, as in ancient times, who will hold to tradition and worship they know not what. {5T 707.1}
I have been shown that many who profess to have a knowledge of present truth know not what they believe. They do not understand the evidences of their faith. They have no just appreciation of the work for the present time. When the time of trial shall come, there are men now preaching to others who will find, upon examining the positions they hold, that there are many things for which they can give no satisfactory reason. Until thus tested they knew not their great ignorance. And there are many in the church who take it for granted that they understand what they believe; but, until controversy arises, they do not know their own weakness. When separated from those of like faith and compelled to stand singly and alone to explain their belief, they will be surprised to see how confused are their ideas of what they had accepted as truth. Certain it is that there has been among us a departure from the living God and a turning to men, putting human in place of divine wisdom. {5T 707.2}

 

[payattention]

I too see some inflexibility in Windmill, but no more than I see in myself during those first years of faith.

And this is where this conversation is proven to be detrimental. We are attacking the ones we ought to be nurturing, and dictating to ones that we have no business dictating to.

Someone who has influence ought to take her aside and help her understand the impact of what she is posting among a group of adults. Her age does not come across the net, for she is spouting ideas that also come from the pen of adults, as we have seen from those who misguidedly cheer her on. The ideas must be challenged if they reflect a spirit that is not of Christ.

I am pleased that she is enamored of the word, but I also know of many young minds that have been wrongly indoctrinated. I prefer a thinking young mind than a conforming young mind.

 

[tall73]

yes, but if you are beating on her you can never be that person. You will have NO influence on her. which is my point. The church passed on not just doctrine, but they were spiritual parents. Paul took Timothy under his wing. Now doubtless he corrected him many times. But he also loved him as a father.

For that matter you could plainly see in Timothy the ideas of Paul. it is MEANT to be that way. He said "remember those from whom you learned it", ie Paul wanted Timothy not just to study for himself...which he said, but to remember the examples of those around him who were following God.

You are right to point out the need for study. But you must also give encouragement for the fact that she is not off reading Harry Potter or something.

I agree with one thing, that error has a right to be confronted. But the nature in which that is done is always tailored to the ones promoting it.

 

[jonno]

yes, but if you are beating on her you can never be that person. You will have NO influence on her. which is my point. The church passed on not just doctrine, but they were spiritual parents. Paul took Timothy under his wing. Now doubtless he corrected him many times. But he also loved him as a father.

For that matter you could plainly see in Timothy the ideas of Paul. it is MEANT to be that way. He said "remember those from whom you learned it", ie Paul wanted Timothy not just to study for himself...which he said, but to remember the examples of those around him who were following God.

You are right to point out the need for study. But you must also give encouragement for the fact that she is not off reading Harry Potter or something.

I agree with one thing, that error has a right to be confronted. But the nature in which that is done is always tailored to the ones promoting it.

On the button!

 

[payattention]

yes, but if you are beating on her you can never be that person. You will have NO influence on her. which is my point. The church passed on not just doctrine, but they were spiritual parents. Paul took Timothy under his wing. Now doubtless he corrected him many times. But he also loved him as a father.

I did not claim to have influence over her. My remarks were directed at those who have influence over her. It is obvious that none of them has spoken to her privately judging by the posts I have read. My first post on this forum was posted this weekend. Why have they left her like this?

 

[woobadooba]

I did not claim to have influence over her. My remarks were directed at those who have influence over her. It is obvious that none of them has spoken to her privately judging by the posts I have read. My first post on this forum was posted this weekend. Why have they left her like this?

I realize that you have good intentions, but we tried to be patient with her, and it didn't work.

She insulted us repeatedly by implying that we aren't true SDAs.

What makes you think that this response would be any different if you wrote to her in private?

If that is what you want to do, then go ahead and do it. Be her mentor. She needs one, as we all do.

But don't try to put a guilt trip on us because we didn't do it your way.

You have no right to do that!